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	<title>Comments on: Thoughts,words and deeds</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/07/30/thoughtswords-and-deeds/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/07/30/thoughtswords-and-deeds/</link>
	<description>She escaped from the belly of the liberal beast</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/07/30/thoughtswords-and-deeds/#comment-2970</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 21:49:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=549#comment-2970</guid>
		<description>Very good read:

&lt;a href="http://www.towardtradition.org/Mel_Gibson.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;Rabbi Daniel Lapin on Mel Gibson&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good read:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.towardtradition.org/Mel_Gibson.htm" rel="nofollow">Rabbi Daniel Lapin on Mel Gibson</a></p>
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		<title>By: reader_iam</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/07/30/thoughtswords-and-deeds/#comment-2969</link>
		<dc:creator>reader_iam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=549#comment-2969</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that you can condemn a drunk's nasty words quite apart from whether those words reflect his true feelings or not. Does that make sense? I mean, he said them, which makes him at best a jerky drunk, even if he's actually not an anti-semite, virulent or otherwise. I personally would not want to draw global conclusions from something someone said when drunk (whoever above made reference to the possibility that the sober restraint is the marker of character has an interesting point), but that's different from not holding the person accountable at least in the sense of: "This is another reason you cannot handle alcohol! Look at what you said! Shame on you--that's inexcusable." You know, sort of along the lines of the classic 12-Step program and its accountabilities. I mean, isn't part of that not making excuses?

One thing that did catch my eye in the comments section of another blog (not DWM) was the actual blood-alcohol level recorded which, while over the legal limit and impairing, really wasn't all that sky-high, relatively speaking. I'm sure I've had many rational conversations with people who probably would have clocked in at .12 (I think that's what it was) but were seemingly well aware of what they were saying. Of course, individual people respond radically differently to the same level of alcohol, and, again of course, temperament, temper and so forth also come into play. Still, it's an interesting point that commenter made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that you can condemn a drunk&#8217;s nasty words quite apart from whether those words reflect his true feelings or not. Does that make sense? I mean, he said them, which makes him at best a jerky drunk, even if he&#8217;s actually not an anti-semite, virulent or otherwise. I personally would not want to draw global conclusions from something someone said when drunk (whoever above made reference to the possibility that the sober restraint is the marker of character has an interesting point), but that&#8217;s different from not holding the person accountable at least in the sense of: &#8220;This is another reason you cannot handle alcohol! Look at what you said! Shame on you&#8211;that&#8217;s inexcusable.&#8221; You know, sort of along the lines of the classic 12-Step program and its accountabilities. I mean, isn&#8217;t part of that not making excuses?</p>
<p>One thing that did catch my eye in the comments section of another blog (not DWM) was the actual blood-alcohol level recorded which, while over the legal limit and impairing, really wasn&#8217;t all that sky-high, relatively speaking. I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;ve had many rational conversations with people who probably would have clocked in at .12 (I think that&#8217;s what it was) but were seemingly well aware of what they were saying. Of course, individual people respond radically differently to the same level of alcohol, and, again of course, temperament, temper and so forth also come into play. Still, it&#8217;s an interesting point that commenter made.</p>
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		<title>By: Bookworm</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/07/30/thoughtswords-and-deeds/#comment-2968</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookworm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=549#comment-2968</guid>
		<description>Reader_iam, you're right that I'm not calling for any punishment for Gibson's thoughts, other than social ostracism.  I'm not even going to boycott his movies, because I've always boycotted his movies.  I'm just looking at Mel and wondering when you can start condemning a drunk for what he says.  There's been a lot of back and forth here about whether Mel really is anti-Semite, whether he's just an ugly drug, whether he's fought against or internalized his father's outspoken beliefs, etc.  I gues I'm just trying to figure out if there is a true to Mel's drunken ravings in which case, again, I wouldn't demand his arrest or punishment -- just his being shunned by those who care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reader_iam, you&#8217;re right that I&#8217;m not calling for any punishment for Gibson&#8217;s thoughts, other than social ostracism.  I&#8217;m not even going to boycott his movies, because I&#8217;ve always boycotted his movies.  I&#8217;m just looking at Mel and wondering when you can start condemning a drunk for what he says.  There&#8217;s been a lot of back and forth here about whether Mel really is anti-Semite, whether he&#8217;s just an ugly drug, whether he&#8217;s fought against or internalized his father&#8217;s outspoken beliefs, etc.  I gues I&#8217;m just trying to figure out if there is a true to Mel&#8217;s drunken ravings in which case, again, I wouldn&#8217;t demand his arrest or punishment &#8212; just his being shunned by those who care.</p>
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		<title>By: reader_iam</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/07/30/thoughtswords-and-deeds/#comment-2967</link>
		<dc:creator>reader_iam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=549#comment-2967</guid>
		<description>I'm not saying that YOU are calling for any such thing, of course!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not saying that YOU are calling for any such thing, of course!!!</p>
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		<title>By: reader_iam</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/07/30/thoughtswords-and-deeds/#comment-2966</link>
		<dc:creator>reader_iam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=549#comment-2966</guid>
		<description>Bookworm: I'm an admirer of yours, though I've never commented here, but I must say that I cannot agree with the implications, if the logic is carried through, contained in this paragraph:

&lt;i&gt;My question, and one I don’t know how to answer, is how far we allow bad thoughts, if they’re not accompanied by bad acts. Normally, I’d say we shouldn’t control thoughts at all, we care only about acts. This is why I find the thought police taking over American college campuses so despicable and 1984-ish. But what about a situation when someone does an act — say, making The Passion of the Christ — which seems to be a subliminal forum for the thoughts — such as anti-Semitism?&lt;/i&gt;

Respectfully, this is far scarier territory to me than the drunken rantings, whether emblematic of true feelings when sober or not, of one actor/director, famous or not, who may have jumped the shark. He's being pilloried--absolutely appropriately!--in the media and blogosphere, so the system is working! To go farther than is to proceed into dangerous territory indeed--at least if one believes in the principle of, to put it simplistically, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."

And overreacting to Gibson's assholery of the other night by calling for an investigation into his alleged hate crimes threatens to debase the very meaning of such a category, not to mention others. I've blogged about that at DWM, if you're interested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bookworm: I&#8217;m an admirer of yours, though I&#8217;ve never commented here, but I must say that I cannot agree with the implications, if the logic is carried through, contained in this paragraph:</p>
<p><i>My question, and one I don’t know how to answer, is how far we allow bad thoughts, if they’re not accompanied by bad acts. Normally, I’d say we shouldn’t control thoughts at all, we care only about acts. This is why I find the thought police taking over American college campuses so despicable and 1984-ish. But what about a situation when someone does an act — say, making The Passion of the Christ — which seems to be a subliminal forum for the thoughts — such as anti-Semitism?</i></p>
<p>Respectfully, this is far scarier territory to me than the drunken rantings, whether emblematic of true feelings when sober or not, of one actor/director, famous or not, who may have jumped the shark. He&#8217;s being pilloried&#8211;absolutely appropriately!&#8211;in the media and blogosphere, so the system is working! To go farther than is to proceed into dangerous territory indeed&#8211;at least if one believes in the principle of, to put it simplistically, &#8220;what&#8217;s good for the goose is good for the gander.&#8221;</p>
<p>And overreacting to Gibson&#8217;s assholery of the other night by calling for an investigation into his alleged hate crimes threatens to debase the very meaning of such a category, not to mention others. I&#8217;ve blogged about that at DWM, if you&#8217;re interested.</p>
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		<title>By: Webloggin - Blog Archive &#187; Thoughts,Words and Deeds</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/07/30/thoughtswords-and-deeds/#comment-2965</link>
		<dc:creator>Webloggin - Blog Archive &#187; Thoughts,Words and Deeds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 13:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=549#comment-2965</guid>
		<description>[...] [Read more and discuss&#8230;] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] [Read more and discuss&#8230;] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kitty</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/07/30/thoughtswords-and-deeds/#comment-2964</link>
		<dc:creator>Kitty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 13:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=549#comment-2964</guid>
		<description>If that’s the standard, then &lt;a href="http://myerskatt.blogspot.com/2006_07_30_myerskatt_archive.html#115430748087963161" rel="nofollow"&gt;Hillary is anti-semitic and racist, too&lt;/a&gt;, and she was completely sober.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If that’s the standard, then <a href="http://myerskatt.blogspot.com/2006_07_30_myerskatt_archive.html#115430748087963161" rel="nofollow">Hillary is anti-semitic and racist, too</a>, and she was completely sober.</p>
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		<title>By: Contratimes</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/07/30/thoughtswords-and-deeds/#comment-2963</link>
		<dc:creator>Contratimes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 12:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=549#comment-2963</guid>
		<description>It may indeed be the case that alcohol removes inhibitions; but the &lt;b&gt;true self might be those inhibitions&lt;/b&gt;. In other words, that which is removed might not be a cover, but the very essence of who a person is. Why would we conclude (or even suggest) that something blurted out while poison is coursing through a person's veins is coming from that person's heart? Perhaps it is spewing from his demon.

It is disconcerting that someone could write (as #6 above):

&lt;i&gt;I did not waste my time seeing it [Gibson's "Passion"] but a friend (formerly Catholic) did and wrote some excellent reviews. It surprised me that so many “Fundamental Christian” leaders were conned into encouraging their church members to see it. &lt;/i&gt;

Gibson's film on the last few hours of Christ's life is a powerful and brilliant work. Yes, it includes some dubious touches, but they are hardly germane and they are surely not heretical. The resurrection of Christ might indeed have proven His Divinity; but a Christ, a God Incarnate, who does not suffer by taking the sins of the world -- the blame for everything -- upon Him is neither a savior nor a God. The Passion is the climax; the resurrection the denouement.

That some deemed the film "too graphic" miss the larger point: Christ's crucifixion was far more graphic than the film could ever depict. For one thing, Christ most likely hung on the cross naked. Just imagine that. And as for this idea that Christ is no longer hanging on the cross -- that Catholics are fixated on a dying, injured God -- the crucifix symbolizes that Christ's sacrifice is eternal, his very wounds still with him even after his resurrection. God is broken when making us whole.

As for the controversial allegations of anti-semitism in Gibson's film, or in the New Testament itself, what is entirely overlooked is that the offending passages in the Gospels -- and perhaps in the Pauline epistles -- were written and believed by Jews. They were not Gentiles who wrote such provocative words: they were Jewish men. Were Matthew, Mark, John, and Paul thus anti-semites? I will let my Jewish friends decide that. But if it is true that they are anti-semites, then does it not follow that anti-semitism has Jewish roots?

A tough, tough question.

Peace to you, always.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may indeed be the case that alcohol removes inhibitions; but the <b>true self might be those inhibitions</b>. In other words, that which is removed might not be a cover, but the very essence of who a person is. Why would we conclude (or even suggest) that something blurted out while poison is coursing through a person&#8217;s veins is coming from that person&#8217;s heart? Perhaps it is spewing from his demon.</p>
<p>It is disconcerting that someone could write (as #6 above):</p>
<p><i>I did not waste my time seeing it [Gibson's "Passion"] but a friend (formerly Catholic) did and wrote some excellent reviews. It surprised me that so many “Fundamental Christian” leaders were conned into encouraging their church members to see it. </i></p>
<p>Gibson&#8217;s film on the last few hours of Christ&#8217;s life is a powerful and brilliant work. Yes, it includes some dubious touches, but they are hardly germane and they are surely not heretical. The resurrection of Christ might indeed have proven His Divinity; but a Christ, a God Incarnate, who does not suffer by taking the sins of the world &#8212; the blame for everything &#8212; upon Him is neither a savior nor a God. The Passion is the climax; the resurrection the denouement.</p>
<p>That some deemed the film &#8220;too graphic&#8221; miss the larger point: Christ&#8217;s crucifixion was far more graphic than the film could ever depict. For one thing, Christ most likely hung on the cross naked. Just imagine that. And as for this idea that Christ is no longer hanging on the cross &#8212; that Catholics are fixated on a dying, injured God &#8212; the crucifix symbolizes that Christ&#8217;s sacrifice is eternal, his very wounds still with him even after his resurrection. God is broken when making us whole.</p>
<p>As for the controversial allegations of anti-semitism in Gibson&#8217;s film, or in the New Testament itself, what is entirely overlooked is that the offending passages in the Gospels &#8212; and perhaps in the Pauline epistles &#8212; were written and believed by Jews. They were not Gentiles who wrote such provocative words: they were Jewish men. Were Matthew, Mark, John, and Paul thus anti-semites? I will let my Jewish friends decide that. But if it is true that they are anti-semites, then does it not follow that anti-semitism has Jewish roots?</p>
<p>A tough, tough question.</p>
<p>Peace to you, always.</p>
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		<title>By: Flopping Aces &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Mel Gibsons Arrest</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/07/30/thoughtswords-and-deeds/#comment-2962</link>
		<dc:creator>Flopping Aces &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Mel Gibsons Arrest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 07:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=549#comment-2962</guid>
		<description>[...] Bookworm Room [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Bookworm Room [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bookworm</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/07/30/thoughtswords-and-deeds/#comment-2961</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookworm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 04:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=549#comment-2961</guid>
		<description>Earl:  I wouldn't be surprised if the terrible childhood pronouncements Gibson certainly heard spouted out of him when he was drunk.  The question is whether they're subliminated but believed, or sublimated and rejected.  That's why I'm still a jury that's out, although I will say that my dislike for him as an actor makes it easy for me to be doubtful of his bona fides.

By the way, I'll admit that we Jews are a bit sensitive.  My mother always said "Never marry a non-Jew."  I asked, "Why?"  "Because," she said, "one day, you'll have a terrible argument about something and he, in the heat of the moment, will turn to you and say, 'You dirty Jew.'"  My mother was the product of a most unhappy mixed marriage and, while I've never asked, I suspect that she saw that worst-case scenario played out, and it affected forever her view about the true philo-Judaism of even one who marries a Jew.  I'm not sure that one needs to be so worried in 20th or 21st Century America, but that certainly was a real scenario in early 20th Century Europe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Earl:  I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if the terrible childhood pronouncements Gibson certainly heard spouted out of him when he was drunk.  The question is whether they&#8217;re subliminated but believed, or sublimated and rejected.  That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m still a jury that&#8217;s out, although I will say that my dislike for him as an actor makes it easy for me to be doubtful of his bona fides.</p>
<p>By the way, I&#8217;ll admit that we Jews are a bit sensitive.  My mother always said &#8220;Never marry a non-Jew.&#8221;  I asked, &#8220;Why?&#8221;  &#8220;Because,&#8221; she said, &#8220;one day, you&#8217;ll have a terrible argument about something and he, in the heat of the moment, will turn to you and say, &#8216;You dirty Jew.&#8217;&#8221;  My mother was the product of a most unhappy mixed marriage and, while I&#8217;ve never asked, I suspect that she saw that worst-case scenario played out, and it affected forever her view about the true philo-Judaism of even one who marries a Jew.  I&#8217;m not sure that one needs to be so worried in 20th or 21st Century America, but that certainly was a real scenario in early 20th Century Europe.</p>
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