Comments on: The missing piece in Israel’s defeat http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/08/15/the-missing-piece-in-israels-defeat/ She escaped from the belly of the liberal beast Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:05:25 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: dagon http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/08/15/the-missing-piece-in-israels-defeat/#comment-3741 dagon Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:13:52 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=656#comment-3741 ymarsakar, you sure do like the sound of your own voice. the think is you're not saying anything. you're merely answering the rhetorical strawmen that you have set up for your own argument. it's amusing to watch but don't pretend to think that anything you have written addresses what i believe. i never said that i supported secret police. i carefully cropped the part about algeira that i thought was relevant, "For your information, in the 1990s, Algeria soundly defeated its own Islamo-fascist terrorism movement through solid, sustainted military and police action" --by agreeing to this piece i was saying that i think terrorism can by fought through "solid, sustained military and police action", rather than a protracted military campaign that produces a lot of innocent deaths. i didn't embrace the rest and i also didn't say that this was the ONLY means to bring about a lasting peace. your extrapolations from this are per usual, derived from your own perverse fantasies. peace ymarsakar,

you sure do like the sound of your own voice. the think is you’re not saying anything. you’re merely answering the rhetorical strawmen that you have set up for your own argument.

it’s amusing to watch but don’t pretend to think that anything you have written addresses what i believe.

i never said that i supported secret police. i carefully cropped the part about algeira that i thought was relevant,

“For your information, in the 1990s, Algeria soundly defeated its own Islamo-fascist terrorism movement through solid, sustainted military and police action”

–by agreeing to this piece i was saying that i think terrorism can by fought through “solid, sustained military and police action”, rather than a protracted military campaign that produces a lot of innocent deaths. i didn’t embrace the rest and i also didn’t say that this was the ONLY means to bring about a lasting peace. your extrapolations from this are per usual, derived from your own perverse fantasies.

peace

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/08/15/the-missing-piece-in-israels-defeat/#comment-3742 Ymarsakar Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:52:33 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=656#comment-3742 http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27924.htm <b>Terrorists targeted both security forces and civilians. Civilian deaths attributed to terrorists decreased from 1,375 deaths in 2002 to 258 during the year. In many cases, terrorists randomly targeted civilians in an apparent attempt to create social disorder. In other cases, violent reprisals were reportedly taken against those who failed to pay a "tax" to the terrorists. Terrorists killed numerous civilians, including infants, in massacres and with small bombs (see Section 1.g.). Other tactics included creating false roadblocks outside the cities, often by using stolen police uniforms, weapons, and equipment. Some killings, including massacres, also were attributed to revenge, banditry, and land grabs. Press reports estimated that approximately 1,162 civilians, terrorists, and security force members died during the year as a result of the ongoing violence, a decrease of 61 percent from the previous year. The violence appears to have occurred primarily in the countryside, as the security forces largely forced the terrorists out of the cities. On February 25, terrorists killed 12 civilians and injured 7 at a false roadblock set up near Tipaza, west of Algiers. The press reported it as one of the deadliest incidents in the country since the start of the year. On June 5, armed terrorists killed 12 persons and injured 2 near Khemis Miliana, west of Algiers, when the bus they were traveling in stopped at a false roadblock. On May 27, in Ain Soltane, terrorists killed a family of 14, including a 6-month-old baby, as they slept, after mistaking their home for a police officer's residence. Other similar incidents took place during the year and from 1991-2002. b. Disappearance During the year, there were no substantiated reports of disappearances in which the security forces were implicated. However, local NGOs reported a trend of prolonged detention ranging from 8 to 18 months that was frequently reported as a disappearance until the person in question was returned to his or her family. These "new" disappearances at the hands of security forces often differed in duration and outcome from the disappearances that remain unresolved and that occurred in the country during the first half of the 1990s. These incidents remained contrary to the legal procedures stipulated in the country's Penal Code and its Constitution. </b> So, in conclusion. I'd have to say that secret police gestapo tactics do work. At least temporarily, until you can get the long term solutions into place. Whether I'd like seeing Israel, America, or Iraq adopt these tactics is a different consideration. The real question you got to ask is now that you've seen historical and current terrorist wars going on in the world, why would Dagon favor negotiation with Hizbollah? Why would Dagon criticize certain things that he believes will create more terrorists? How are terrorists created, and can you even stop them if you know what created them in the first place? http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27924.htm

Terrorists targeted both security forces and civilians. Civilian deaths attributed to terrorists decreased from 1,375 deaths in 2002 to 258 during the year. In many cases, terrorists randomly targeted civilians in an apparent attempt to create social disorder. In other cases, violent reprisals were reportedly taken against those who failed to pay a “tax” to the terrorists. Terrorists killed numerous civilians, including infants, in massacres and with small bombs (see Section 1.g.). Other tactics included creating false roadblocks outside the cities, often by using stolen police uniforms, weapons, and equipment. Some killings, including massacres, also were attributed to revenge, banditry, and land grabs.

Press reports estimated that approximately 1,162 civilians, terrorists, and security force members died during the year as a result of the ongoing violence, a decrease of 61 percent from the previous year. The violence appears to have occurred primarily in the countryside, as the security forces largely forced the terrorists out of the cities.

On February 25, terrorists killed 12 civilians and injured 7 at a false roadblock set up near Tipaza, west of Algiers. The press reported it as one of the deadliest incidents in the country since the start of the year. On June 5, armed terrorists killed 12 persons and injured 2 near Khemis Miliana, west of Algiers, when the bus they were traveling in stopped at a false roadblock. On May 27, in Ain Soltane, terrorists killed a family of 14, including a 6-month-old baby, as they slept, after mistaking their home for a police officer’s residence.

Other similar incidents took place during the year and from 1991-2002.

b. Disappearance

During the year, there were no substantiated reports of disappearances in which the security forces were implicated. However, local NGOs reported a trend of prolonged detention ranging from 8 to 18 months that was frequently reported as a disappearance until the person in question was returned to his or her family. These “new” disappearances at the hands of security forces often differed in duration and outcome from the disappearances that remain unresolved and that occurred in the country during the first half of the 1990s. These incidents remained contrary to the legal procedures stipulated in the country’s Penal Code and its Constitution.

So, in conclusion. I’d have to say that secret police gestapo tactics do work. At least temporarily, until you can get the long term solutions into place.

Whether I’d like seeing Israel, America, or Iraq adopt these tactics is a different consideration.

The real question you got to ask is now that you’ve seen historical and current terrorist wars going on in the world, why would Dagon favor negotiation with Hizbollah? Why would Dagon criticize certain things that he believes will create more terrorists?

How are terrorists created, and can you even stop them if you know what created them in the first place?

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/08/15/the-missing-piece-in-israels-defeat/#comment-3745 Ymarsakar Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:33:54 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=656#comment-3745 <b>Algeria also played with the idea of meeting "the legitimate grievances" of the terrorists in 1992 to 1994. Muhammad Boudiaf said he "understood the anger of those who take up arms." The result was that he himself was gunned down. By 1996, however, Prime Minister Ahmed Ouyahya had adopted the Fujimori approach, enabling the state to move onto full offensive against the terrorists. The eighth, and possibly the most important lesson, is not to become fixated with the terrorist threat. Terrorism, like the fabled cobra, has the ability to paralyze the state with a mixture of fear and fascination. Peru, Algeria, Egypt and Turkey, among others, experienced this to varying degrees. They all learned to break the spell and deny the terrorists the possibility of fixing the national agenda. Both Peru and Algeria introduced radical economic reforms designed to move them toward a market system. In Peru an unprecedented economic boom created hundreds of thousands of new jobs and changed the nation's gloomy mood. There was no corresponding boom in Algeria. But even there the Ouyahya reforms helped create new economic opportunities that strengthened the state's legitimacy. In both countries reasonably free elections were held as part of a broader policy of political change. The idea was to show that political power should be sought through the polling stations, not terrorist hide-outs. In time all societies affected by terrorism manage to factor it in, to consider it as an ugly fact of life like occasional bad weather. It is then that terrorism, like all other human activities, become subject to the iron law of diminishing returns: The more that is invested the less that is gained by terrorists. Terrorism can make a lot of noise and inflict great damage. But the state always wins. </b> Another source is this. http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=450 <b>The Government's human rights record remained poor and worsened in a few areas; however, important progress was made in some areas. Aspects of the State of Emergency continued to restrict citizens' right to change their government. There were fewer reports of security force abuses. However, there continued to be problems with excessive use of force and the failure to account for past disappearances. Short-term disappearances of prisoners deemed "threats to national security" reportedly increased. The incidence and severity of torture declined markedly; however, new allegations continued. Security forces carried out extra-judicial killings and civilian and military police arbitrarily detained persons. Arbitrary arrests and incommunicado detention continued; most of these cases were committed in the context of the Government's continuing battle with terrorism. The Government routinely denied defendants fair and expeditious trials, and interference with privacy rights remained a problem. Despite judicial reforms, prolonged pre-trial detention and lengthy trial delays were problems. Defendants' rights to due process, illegal searches, and infringements on citizens' privacy rights also remained problems. The Government imposed new restrictions on freedom of expression, and an increased willingness to implement them. The Government did not always punish abuses, and official impunity remains a problem. Defamation laws and government actions restricted the relative freedom of the print media; however, the media continued to openly and regularly criticize the Government, despite government reprisals. The Government continued to restrict, in varying degrees, freedom of speech, press, assembly, association, and movement during the year. The Government also placed some restrictions on freedom of religion. Domestic violence against women, the Family Code's limits on women's civil rights, and societal discrimination against women remained serious problems. Child abuse was a problem. Although the Government recognized the Amazigh language as a national language, Tamazight ethnic, cultural, and linguistic rights were the objects of demonstrations and riots and remained an undercurrent of the political scene throughout the year. Child labor was a problem in some sectors. The Government continued to restrict workers' rights by not officially recognizing some unions. </b> When people like me say that Algeria used police powers to get rid of terrorism, the above is what we understand to be true. And here people like Dagon thinks that is a good model of success. Perhaps all Dagon needs is a pretext to unleash oppression. Since he believes terrorism works, he must also think secret police powers also must work as it did in Algeria. <b>“For your information, in the 1990s, Algeria soundly defeated its own Islamo-fascist terrorism movement through solid, sustainted military and police action, after the Islamo-fascists had killed over 100,000 civilians. By your world view, this could never have happened.” –i agree. i think this is the type of thing that we ought to be encouraging, rather than incurring the collateral damage that we have seen just recently in how israel was approaching the hizbollah situation. that is the scenario that i think produces more terrorists. </b> Dagon doesn't know what produces more terrorists, he is all over the place. <b>Terrorist groups committed numerous serious abuses and killed hundreds of civilians, including infants. Terrorists continued their campaign of insurgency, targeting government officials, families of security force members, and civilians. The killing of civilians often was the result of rivalry between terrorist groups or to facilitate the theft of goods needed to support their operations. Terrorist groups used violence to extort money, food, and medical supplies. Terrorists left bombs in cars, cafes, and markets, which killed and injured indiscriminately. Some killings, including massacres, also were attributed to revenge, banditry, and land grabs. Press reports estimated that approximately 1,162 civilians, terrorists, and security force members died during the year, a 61 percent decrease in violent deaths from 2002. Official government statistics indicated that fewer than 900 persons were killed. The violence occurred primarily in the countryside, as the security forces largely forced the terrorists out of the cities. </b> The same people complaining of Israel using too much force, will be complaining no matter what they get. Either it's too much military action, or too much civil rights violations, or whatever. You can't satisfy these children. Algeria's success can be summed up in a couple of ways. Provide jobs, kill the terroists to provide security, and allow voting. That's about it more or less. People think Iraq is special, but it ain't. You'll be amazed at how much suffering is in this world that fake liberals ignore or pretend is a special case focused only on the regions they think is important. Algeria also played with the idea of meeting “the legitimate grievances” of the terrorists in 1992 to 1994. Muhammad Boudiaf said he “understood the anger of those who take up arms.” The result was that he himself was gunned down. By 1996, however, Prime Minister Ahmed Ouyahya had adopted the Fujimori approach, enabling the state to move onto full offensive against the terrorists.

The eighth, and possibly the most important lesson, is not to become fixated with the terrorist threat. Terrorism, like the fabled cobra, has the ability to paralyze the state with a mixture of fear and fascination. Peru, Algeria, Egypt and Turkey, among others, experienced this to varying degrees. They all learned to break the spell and deny the terrorists the possibility of fixing the national agenda.

Both Peru and Algeria introduced radical economic reforms designed to move them toward a market system. In Peru an unprecedented economic boom created hundreds of thousands of new jobs and changed the nation’s gloomy mood. There was no corresponding boom in Algeria. But even there the Ouyahya reforms helped create new economic opportunities that strengthened the state’s legitimacy.

In both countries reasonably free elections were held as part of a broader policy of political change. The idea was to show that political power should be sought through the polling stations, not terrorist hide-outs.

In time all societies affected by terrorism manage to factor it in, to consider it as an ugly fact of life like occasional bad weather. It is then that terrorism, like all other human activities, become subject to the iron law of diminishing returns: The more that is invested the less that is gained by terrorists.

Terrorism can make a lot of noise and inflict great damage. But the state always wins.

Another source is this.

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=450

The Government’s human rights record remained poor and worsened in a few areas; however, important progress was made in some areas. Aspects of the State of Emergency continued to restrict citizens’ right to change their government. There were fewer reports of security force abuses. However, there continued to be problems with excessive use of force and the failure to account for past disappearances. Short-term disappearances of prisoners deemed “threats to national security” reportedly increased. The incidence and severity of torture declined markedly; however, new allegations continued. Security forces carried out extra-judicial killings and civilian and military police arbitrarily detained persons. Arbitrary arrests and incommunicado detention continued; most of these cases were committed in the context of the Government’s continuing battle with terrorism. The Government routinely denied defendants fair and expeditious trials, and interference with privacy rights remained a problem. Despite judicial reforms, prolonged pre-trial detention and lengthy trial delays were problems. Defendants’ rights to due process, illegal searches, and infringements on citizens’ privacy rights also remained problems. The Government imposed new restrictions on freedom of expression, and an increased willingness to implement them. The Government did not always punish abuses, and official impunity remains a problem. Defamation laws and government actions restricted the relative freedom of the print media; however, the media continued to openly and regularly criticize the Government, despite government reprisals. The Government continued to restrict, in varying degrees, freedom of speech, press, assembly, association, and movement during the year. The Government also placed some restrictions on freedom of religion. Domestic violence against women, the Family Code’s limits on women’s civil rights, and societal discrimination against women remained serious problems. Child abuse was a problem. Although the Government recognized the Amazigh language as a national language, Tamazight ethnic, cultural, and linguistic rights were the objects of demonstrations and riots and remained an undercurrent of the political scene throughout the year. Child labor was a problem in some sectors. The Government continued to restrict workers’ rights by not officially recognizing some unions.

When people like me say that Algeria used police powers to get rid of terrorism, the above is what we understand to be true. And here people like Dagon thinks that is a good model of success. Perhaps all Dagon needs is a pretext to unleash oppression. Since he believes terrorism works, he must also think secret police powers also must work as it did in Algeria.

“For your information, in the 1990s, Algeria soundly defeated its own Islamo-fascist terrorism movement through solid, sustainted military and police action, after the Islamo-fascists had killed over 100,000 civilians. By your world view, this could never have happened.”

–i agree. i think this is the type of thing that we ought to be encouraging, rather than incurring the collateral damage that we have seen just recently in how israel was approaching the hizbollah situation. that is the scenario that i think produces more terrorists.

Dagon doesn’t know what produces more terrorists, he is all over the place.

Terrorist groups committed numerous serious abuses and killed hundreds of civilians, including infants. Terrorists continued their campaign of insurgency, targeting government officials, families of security force members, and civilians. The killing of civilians often was the result of rivalry between terrorist groups or to facilitate the theft of goods needed to support their operations. Terrorist groups used violence to extort money, food, and medical supplies. Terrorists left bombs in cars, cafes, and markets, which killed and injured indiscriminately. Some killings, including massacres, also were attributed to revenge, banditry, and land grabs. Press reports estimated that approximately 1,162 civilians, terrorists, and security force members died during the year, a 61 percent decrease in violent deaths from 2002. Official government statistics indicated that fewer than 900 persons were killed. The violence occurred primarily in the countryside, as the security forces largely forced the terrorists out of the cities.

The same people complaining of Israel using too much force, will be complaining no matter what they get. Either it’s too much military action, or too much civil rights violations, or whatever. You can’t satisfy these children.

Algeria’s success can be summed up in a couple of ways. Provide jobs, kill the terroists to provide security, and allow voting.

That’s about it more or less.

People think Iraq is special, but it ain’t. You’ll be amazed at how much suffering is in this world that fake liberals ignore or pretend is a special case focused only on the regions they think is important.

]]> By: dagon http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/08/15/the-missing-piece-in-israels-defeat/#comment-3744 dagon Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:29:03 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=656#comment-3744 zhombre, you too peace zhombre,

you too

peace

]]> By: zhombre http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/08/15/the-missing-piece-in-israels-defeat/#comment-3743 zhombre Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:23:55 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=656#comment-3743 I'm hardly a "fan of realpolitik." But presume whatever you want. Have a nice day, Dagon. I’m hardly a “fan of realpolitik.” But presume whatever you want. Have a nice day, Dagon.

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/08/15/the-missing-piece-in-israels-defeat/#comment-3748 Ymarsakar Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:02:58 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=656#comment-3748 I think what you're missing Zhombre is that Dagon actually prefers stomping out terrorism using Algerian tactics. However, he believes those successes were because of police action, police action that accrued no collateral damage. We know better, so the question is, does Dagon realize that he is advocating secret police gestapo tactics or does Dagon really believe the kind of police action he favors really could stop an Algerian type terroist scenario? I think the President of Pakistan has been pretty clear about his loyalties and limitations, and he also sees clearly his own personal situation. Dagon somehow translates believing the word of Arab leaders to mean "bomb anyone we don't like". What kind of blind bigotry are we dealing with here? kMore later http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/5273 Abvout algeria I think what you’re missing Zhombre is that Dagon actually prefers stomping out terrorism using Algerian tactics. However, he believes those successes were because of police action, police action that accrued no collateral damage.

We know better, so the question is, does Dagon realize that he is advocating secret police gestapo tactics or does Dagon really believe the kind of police action he favors really could stop an Algerian type terroist scenario?

I think the President of Pakistan has been pretty clear about his loyalties and limitations, and he also sees clearly his own personal situation. Dagon somehow translates believing the word of Arab leaders to mean “bomb anyone we don’t like”. What kind of blind bigotry are we dealing with here?

kMore later

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/5273

Abvout algeria

]]> By: dagon http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/08/15/the-missing-piece-in-israels-defeat/#comment-3747 dagon Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:51:22 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=656#comment-3747 danny "The sad thing that I have noticed about the Left, Dagon, is the zeal with which it swallows enemy propoganda hook, line and sinker because it confirms what it wants to believe, a zeal surpassed only by its quickness to dismiss their own country, civilization and peoples" spare me, take a look in the mirror and say the same thing to yourself and see how much mileage you get. no one is the last word on how much damage israel inflicted, but here's a couter argument: http://makeashorterlink.com/?I1DD4219D peace danny

“The sad thing that I have noticed about the Left, Dagon, is the zeal with which it swallows enemy propoganda hook, line and sinker because it confirms what it wants to believe, a zeal surpassed only by its quickness to dismiss their own country, civilization and peoples”

spare me, take a look in the mirror and say the same thing to yourself and see how much mileage you get.

no one is the last word on how much damage israel inflicted, but here’s a couter argument:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I1DD4219D

peace

]]> By: dagon http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/08/15/the-missing-piece-in-israels-defeat/#comment-3746 dagon Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:45:13 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=656#comment-3746 zhombre, "Then, using Algeria as an example, we should be encouraging military dictatorships, internecine violence and civil war within Islamic countries? Boots on the ground are OK as long as they are not our boots?" --that's not what i said and not what i'm suggesting. i think you know that. but to be fair, we HAVE been encouring military dictatorships, internecine violence and civil war within islamic countries for quite some time now. since you're such a fan of realpoltik, i'm assuming that this is a scenario that YOU would favor: shah of iran, hause of saud, musharref in pakistan, etc. peace zhombre,

“Then, using Algeria as an example, we should be encouraging military dictatorships, internecine violence and civil war within Islamic countries? Boots on the ground are OK as long as they are not our boots?”

–that’s not what i said and not what i’m suggesting. i think you know that.

but to be fair, we HAVE been encouring military dictatorships, internecine violence and civil war within islamic countries for quite some time now. since you’re such a fan of realpoltik, i’m assuming that this is a scenario that YOU would favor: shah of iran, hause of saud, musharref in pakistan, etc.

peace

]]> By: Danny Lemieux http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/08/15/the-missing-piece-in-israels-defeat/#comment-3752 Danny Lemieux Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:42:11 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=656#comment-3752 Dagon, I am not aware that Israel has inflicted massive damage on Lebanon and the Lebanese people, the doctored and staged image-propaganda of the MSM/Left notwithstanding. In fact, unlike Hezbollah, Israel's response was very targeted and careful to minimize collateral damage and harm to civilians http://drinkingfromhome.blogspot.com/2006/08/orla-guerin-busted.html#links. In fact, a very good argument can be made that Israel has reacted very disproportionally against its own interests and in the interests of saving Arab lives. The sad thing that I have noticed about the Left, Dagon, is the zeal with which it swallows enemy propoganda hook, line and sinker because it confirms what it wants to believe, a zeal surpassed only by its quickness to dismiss their own country, civilization and peoples. Whether enablers or cheerleaders, they represent a 5th column that does not deserve freedom and democracy. Dagon, I am not aware that Israel has inflicted massive damage on Lebanon and the Lebanese people, the doctored and staged image-propaganda of the MSM/Left notwithstanding. In fact, unlike Hezbollah, Israel’s response was very targeted and careful to minimize collateral damage and harm to civilians http://drinkingfromhome.blogspot.com/2006/08/orla-guerin-busted.html#links.
In fact, a very good argument can be made that Israel has reacted very disproportionally against its own interests and in the interests of saving Arab lives. The sad thing that I have noticed about the Left, Dagon, is the zeal with which it swallows enemy propoganda hook, line and sinker because it confirms what it wants to believe, a zeal surpassed only by its quickness to dismiss their own country, civilization and peoples. Whether enablers or cheerleaders, they represent a 5th column that does not deserve freedom and democracy.

]]> By: zhombre http://www.bookwormroom.com/2006/08/15/the-missing-piece-in-israels-defeat/#comment-3751 zhombre Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:39:38 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=656#comment-3751 Then, using Algeria as an example, we should be encouraging military dictatorships, internecine violence and civil war within Islamic countries? Boots on the ground are OK as long as they are not our boots? Then, using Algeria as an example, we should be encouraging military dictatorships, internecine violence and civil war within Islamic countries? Boots on the ground are OK as long as they are not our boots?

]]>