Is Original Sin connected to what you said, Trish? Yes, in my view, because of what you said about Jesus saving people with his death. That was because Original Sin prevented humanity from cleansing that original sin, of Adam and Eve. If I don’t believe in Original Sin, then obviously I cannot believe in Jesus Christ saving humanity with his crucifixion. You don’t have to be talking about Original Sin for me to say I don’t believe in it. I may disbelieve in something you have said because I, as an individual, don’t believe in Original Sin.

But I stopped short of making the connection. If you have your own interpretation, I will hear it with an open mind if you are interested in describing it.

Frameworks simply mean, when you compare an event or a claim with other things that you know to be true, does it fit together in a way that makes logical sense, common sense, and adheres to the bare minimum standard of rationality and probablity?

See, my friend Gortok once said that the God in the Old Testament killed off a lot of children in that plague, and this was Good because God did it. I don’t think I can accept that something is good just because God did it, based upon the premise that God is omnipotently powerful and infinitely good and omnisciently wise. This even assumes the book got it right. If God is so powerful, how the heck can mortals accurately describe what he did or did not do? *shrugs* Frameworks.

I not only read the bible, stopped after Genesis was over though, but I talk to a lot of theologians or amateur theologians you might say.

Let me ask you, and everybody else, a question: do you really think that it is possible for you, or any other human being, to come up to God’s standards by your own efforts? Really?

You mean the standard of perfection? While I believe in a God, I don’t believe that humanity will ever achieve Godhood. If salvation means being with God, then I don’t believe humanity can ever be with God if that means losing our humanity. Were we with God when Adam and Eve were ignorant of the knowledge of Good and Evil, before Original Sin? Perhaps, most likely even. But if it means giving up the knowledge of Good and Evil, to be with God and to come up to God’s standards, then is the price worth the reward? I think it unlikely.

I’m not with Ravana, after all, I’m not basing my argument and belief on “God doesn’t exist” or “you have not proved God’s existence”. That doesn’t matter to me, after all. I wouldn’t believe even if a miracle occured. Because the logic and reasoning that prevent me from believing, is not going to be convinced by some deus ex machina trick. Miracles are a sign of power, but not a sign of wisdom or knowledge, or goodness even, or specifically why things were that way or should be this way. Miracles will allow me to believe in the existence of God and the power of God, but it will not convince me to be with God or to believe God is the infinite good.

Personally, I think God is more of a Force of Nature and of the universe, time and causality, than infinite mercy. Dark and Light, Good and Evil, matter and anti-matter. These things give me hints that God, the ultimate power, has a dual nature. Complimenting themselves, greater than the sum of its parts.

I cannot believe that anything to infinity, is a good thing. Not even infinite Goodness and Mercy and Compassion. Or not specially those. Rage, violence, evil, ruthlessness, and cruelty have their places, well deserved if I may say so.

Let me ask you, and everybody else, a question: do you really think that it is possible for you, or any other human being, to come up to God’s standards by your own efforts? Really?

The whole thing about Original Sin and Jesus wiping the stain clean, does not exactly make sense. Sure they tell me the Bible says so and so, but it isn’t consistent in enough frameworks.

That’s why it was necessary for Jesus to come. Yes, our behavior matters, but He knew that we’re not capable of doing it by ourselves. He said, “No one comes to the Father except through Me.” Whether there are other ways of being saved “through” Jesus besides being a Christian has been a matter for much debate.

One thing is certain. Fancy footwork won’t do it.

I have to admit that I sometimes wonder how I’ll do with the fancy footwork if it turns out that some of THEM followed a path closer to His mark than I in this life. Interesting…..

I’m a Christian, and I take it seriously, but I’m also a fan of Billy Joel - “it’s all rock and roll, to me.” I cannot but believe that God judges us by our behavior, not our team affiliation.