Comments on: Bringing women back from the pit of living death http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/09/11/bringing-women-back-from-the-pit-of-living-death/ She escaped from the belly of the liberal beast Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:32:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Mike Devx http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/09/11/bringing-women-back-from-the-pit-of-living-death/#comment-14700 Mike Devx Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:41:34 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=1803#comment-14700 I actually believe that the wearing of the veil itself, if done entirely by individual choice for the reason of either fashion or privacy while in public, is perfectly fine. When enforced by law or any form of force, it becomes a pure abomination. It's a crime against individual liberty, because it is then, in fact, the deliberate erasure of worth and identity. And yet, still, all of our fellow Americans on the left refuse to speak out against this radical Islamic viciousness, as well as so many other forms of Islamic viciousness. They've abandoned a whole set of valuable "classical liberal" values for the single value of a hate of everything Western. How very pitiful, and sad for the American left; and extremely dangerous. I actually believe that the wearing of the veil itself, if done entirely by individual choice for the reason of either fashion or privacy while in public, is perfectly fine.

When enforced by law or any form of force, it becomes a pure abomination. It’s a crime against individual liberty, because it is then, in fact, the deliberate erasure of worth and identity.

And yet, still, all of our fellow Americans on the left refuse to speak out against this radical Islamic viciousness, as well as so many other forms of Islamic viciousness. They’ve abandoned a whole set of valuable “classical liberal” values for the single value of a hate of everything Western. How very pitiful, and sad for the American left; and extremely dangerous.

]]> By: ymarsakar http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/09/11/bringing-women-back-from-the-pit-of-living-death/#comment-14702 ymarsakar Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:42:56 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=1803#comment-14702 Freedom of religion means the freedom to practice your faith, whatever your faith is. If your faith dictates that you slaughter an X number of people by Ramadan, is it against freedom of religion to restrict your ability to do so? Is it restricting a person's freedom of speech when you prevent him from breaking confidentiality contracts? Is it a violation of the 2nd Amendment if you can't own nuclear weapons, even if you had the money to buy them? Freedom is only seen by the progressives as the freedom to do whatever the hell they want, so long as it is someone else suffering. It is not liberty, however. Freedom of religion means the freedom to practice your faith, whatever your faith is. If your faith dictates that you slaughter an X number of people by Ramadan, is it against freedom of religion to restrict your ability to do so? Is it restricting a person’s freedom of speech when you prevent him from breaking confidentiality contracts? Is it a violation of the 2nd Amendment if you can’t own nuclear weapons, even if you had the money to buy them?

Freedom is only seen by the progressives as the freedom to do whatever the hell they want, so long as it is someone else suffering. It is not liberty, however.

]]> By: ymarsakar http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/09/11/bringing-women-back-from-the-pit-of-living-death/#comment-14701 ymarsakar Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:37:57 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=1803#comment-14701 Try eating with a veil on. Try eating with a veil on.

]]> By: Lulu http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/09/11/bringing-women-back-from-the-pit-of-living-death/#comment-14703 Lulu Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:05:21 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=1803#comment-14703 Hello Tibby. You must admit that there is a difference between covering one's hair and covering one's face. Certainly, we can wear a hat or a scarf and be recognizable. Not so with a veil. We can breathe fresh air with a hat or scarf on. Not with a veil. We can smile hello and have others see our smile and greet us in return with a head covering on, but not with a face covering. We can show excitement, distress, anger or joy in our faces and people can identify our feelings at a glance and respond to them, but with a veil those feelings must be verbally articulated to be noticed. People cover their heads for a variety of reasons. As you mentioned, religious Jews cover their head as a sign of respect to God, to remind them that there is Someone above them. Orthodox Jewish women, as with Catholic nuns, also cover their hair as a sign of modesty. Can the veil be taken also as a sign of modesty? Sure- it is modesty that renders a woman invisible, that makes one woman in public indistinguishable from another. Aayan Hirsi Ali, a woman who grew up Moslem in Somalia, described her feelings as a child arriving in Saudi Arabia and seeing moving black blobs, a sight that frightened her. Eventually she realized that under the blackness a woman walked. Who was she? No one could possibly know except by her escort; her son, husband or brother. Read Ms. Ali's book to get a sense of what it is like to be invisible and unable to order coffee without a male escort or even to get home from the airport. I question whether these women are really making a choice anyway. What if a wife of a devout man didn't want to wear the veil? As the property of her husband or father if she refused she would be forced to do so. Check out YouTube and look up key words "women's rights" and "Islam" and you will see numerous film footage taken straight from Arab language tv on a variety of subjects such as domestic violence, child marriages, the veil, and so on. These are talk shows, interviews with clerics and intelligentsia who describe a woman's world inconceivable to us. In lands where talk shows instruct men in the "proper" way to beat their wives, how much freedom does she really have? And btw, how comfortable is it to have cloth brushing against your lashes each time you blink, and a mask forcing you to breathe the stale air from your own breath. No, Mr. Joffie is wrong. This isn't "freedom of religion". This is when a so-called supporter of human rights gets so mixed up with messages of multi-culturalism and diversity that he actually supports the suppression of human rights. Try covering your face for days, weeks, months- it would be tantamount to a living hell. The fact that women who live this lifestyle accept it, even claim to feel liberated by it, doesn't surprise me. The women behind the veil who don't support it could not say so publicly. Look how long it took after the collapse of the the Taliban for Afghan women to remove their burqas and show their beautiful faces to the sunlight again. Despite the risk, it took no time at all. Sorry for the length of this tome but I feel passionately about this subject. This is not a freedom of diversity issue. This is a subjugation of women issue. Hello Tibby. You must admit that there is a difference between covering one’s hair and covering one’s face. Certainly, we can wear a hat or a scarf and be recognizable. Not so with a veil. We can breathe fresh air with a hat or scarf on. Not with a veil. We can smile hello and have others see our smile and greet us in return with a head covering on, but not with a face covering. We can show excitement, distress, anger or joy in our faces and people can identify our feelings at a glance and respond to them, but with a veil those feelings must be verbally articulated to be noticed.
People cover their heads for a variety of reasons. As you mentioned, religious Jews cover their head as a sign of respect to God, to remind them that there is Someone above them. Orthodox Jewish women, as with Catholic nuns, also cover their hair as a sign of modesty. Can the veil be taken also as a sign of modesty? Sure- it is modesty that renders a woman invisible, that makes one woman in public indistinguishable from another. Aayan Hirsi Ali, a woman who grew up Moslem in Somalia, described her feelings as a child arriving in Saudi Arabia and seeing moving black blobs, a sight that frightened her. Eventually she realized that under the blackness a woman walked. Who was she? No one could possibly know except by her escort; her son, husband or brother. Read Ms. Ali’s book to get a sense of what it is like to be invisible and unable to order coffee without a male escort or even to get home from the airport.

I question whether these women are really making a choice anyway. What if a wife of a devout man didn’t want to wear the veil? As the property of her husband or father if she refused she would be forced to do so. Check out YouTube and look up key words “women’s rights” and “Islam” and you will see numerous film footage taken straight from Arab language tv on a variety of subjects such as domestic violence, child marriages, the veil, and so on. These are talk shows, interviews with clerics and intelligentsia who describe a woman’s world inconceivable to us. In lands where talk shows instruct men in the “proper” way to beat their wives, how much freedom does she really have?

And btw, how comfortable is it to have cloth brushing against your lashes each time you blink, and a mask forcing you to breathe the stale air from your own breath. No, Mr. Joffie is wrong. This isn’t “freedom of religion”. This is when a so-called supporter of human rights gets so mixed up with messages of multi-culturalism and diversity that he actually supports the suppression of human rights.

Try covering your face for days, weeks, months- it would be tantamount to a living hell. The fact that women who live this lifestyle accept it, even claim to feel liberated by it, doesn’t surprise me. The women behind the veil who don’t support it could not say so publicly. Look how long it took after the collapse of the the Taliban for Afghan women to remove their burqas and show their beautiful faces to the sunlight again. Despite the risk, it took no time at all.

Sorry for the length of this tome but I feel passionately about this subject. This is not a freedom of diversity issue. This is a subjugation of women issue.

]]> By: Bookworm http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/09/11/bringing-women-back-from-the-pit-of-living-death/#comment-14699 Bookworm Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:02:35 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=1803#comment-14699 I agree that many religions cover their heads in the sight of the Lord, Tibby, and do not have a problem with Islam to the extent the women wear those head scarves. My problem begins with the more radical clothing the rabbi also seems to approve -- the veil. That goes beyond respect to the Lord and becomes erasure of the person. I agree that many religions cover their heads in the sight of the Lord, Tibby, and do not have a problem with Islam to the extent the women wear those head scarves. My problem begins with the more radical clothing the rabbi also seems to approve — the veil. That goes beyond respect to the Lord and becomes erasure of the person.

]]> By: tibby http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/09/11/bringing-women-back-from-the-pit-of-living-death/#comment-14704 tibby Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:46:49 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=1803#comment-14704 Maybe the rabbi is defending that freedom of religion we speak so highly of? Some sects of the Jewish religion still cover their heads, (well the women do!) And just 30 years ago Catholic women still covered theirs. Granted it is a tradition that they can take or leave now, but!!! Does it really speak of a way to control, or simply a way to honor God? There are nuances to everything. Maybe the rabbi is defending that freedom of religion we speak so highly of? Some sects of the Jewish religion still cover their heads, (well the women do!) And just 30 years ago Catholic women still covered theirs. Granted it is a tradition that they can take or leave now, but!!! Does it really speak of a way to control, or simply a way to honor God? There are nuances to everything.

]]> By: pacificus http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/09/11/bringing-women-back-from-the-pit-of-living-death/#comment-14705 pacificus Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:58:51 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=1803#comment-14705 Wow Book, this is why I keep reading your blog. Your reach is impressive. And you reinforce the fact that good novels are an important part of education Wow Book, this is why I keep reading your blog. Your reach is impressive. And you reinforce the fact that good novels are an important part of education

]]> By: Webloggin - News and Commentary on Politics, Media and Culture http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/09/11/bringing-women-back-from-the-pit-of-living-death/#comment-14706 Webloggin - News and Commentary on Politics, Media and Culture Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:53:24 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=1803#comment-14706 [...] [Discuss this article with Bookworm over at Bookworm Room…] Share Article Sphere: Related Content [...] [...] [Discuss this article with Bookworm over at Bookworm Room…] Share Article Sphere: Related Content [...]

]]> By: JJ http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/09/11/bringing-women-back-from-the-pit-of-living-death/#comment-14707 JJ Tue, 11 Sep 2007 23:17:06 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=1803#comment-14707 You expected a rabbi "on the left" to be an improvement over anyone else on the left? Why? You expected a rabbi “on the left” to be an improvement over anyone else on the left? Why?

]]> By: Zabrina http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/09/11/bringing-women-back-from-the-pit-of-living-death/#comment-14709 Zabrina Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:27:28 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=1803#comment-14709 Great, thoughtful post. I agree on all counts. I too also think "Gone With the Wind" still worth reading, as an eye-opening window into several different layers of the past! It's certainly better-written and more educational than Danielle Steele. Great, thoughtful post. I agree on all counts. I too also think “Gone With the Wind” still worth reading, as an eye-opening window into several different layers of the past! It’s certainly better-written and more educational than Danielle Steele.

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