Comments on: Stories of the nanny state http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/11/12/stories-of-the-nanny-state/ She escaped from the belly of the liberal beast Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:43:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Ophiuchus http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/11/12/stories-of-the-nanny-state/#comment-16745 Ophiuchus Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:18:56 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2101#comment-16745 Danny, I think I found the basis for the policy in question: "After the Exxon Valdez oil spill in Alaska in 1989, hundreds of untrained volunteers who helped swab up oil complained of respiratory problems, nausea and headaches after the crisis." This pretty much justifies the official policy, as far as I am concerned. Yes, there's a difference between the crude oil in the Exxon Valdez case and the bunker oil in this case, but it's still close enough that the precautionary policy of the feds seems justified to me. Danny, I think I found the basis for the policy in question:

“After the Exxon Valdez oil spill in Alaska in 1989, hundreds of untrained volunteers who helped swab up oil complained of respiratory problems, nausea and headaches after the crisis.”

This pretty much justifies the official policy, as far as I am concerned. Yes, there’s a difference between the crude oil in the Exxon Valdez case and the bunker oil in this case, but it’s still close enough that the precautionary policy of the feds seems justified to me.

]]> By: Danny Lemieux http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/11/12/stories-of-the-nanny-state/#comment-16744 Danny Lemieux Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:28:18 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2101#comment-16744 Ophi, I believe that the oil that was released in the bay was lightly-refined bunker fuel oil. The dangerous one are the highly refined distillates, but distillates wouldn't create the tar balls that are fouling the Bay Area's beaches. As rockdalian pointed out, people who work in the industry (including the shipping and heating oil industry) regularly get exposed to the stuff. Ophi, I believe that the oil that was released in the bay was lightly-refined bunker fuel oil. The dangerous one are the highly refined distillates, but distillates wouldn’t create the tar balls that are fouling the Bay Area’s beaches.

As rockdalian pointed out, people who work in the industry (including the shipping and heating oil industry) regularly get exposed to the stuff.

]]> By: Ophiuchus http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/11/12/stories-of-the-nanny-state/#comment-16743 Ophiuchus Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:45:13 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2101#comment-16743 Danny, there are many kinds of oil -- light oils, heavy oils, lubricating oils, and fuel oils. I suspect that you're talking about lubricating oils, which are highly refined and contain less of the heavy hydrocarbons that can be dangerous. Fuel oils are only lightly refined and contain a lot more random stuff. The fuel oils used in oil-fired power plants, for example, have the consistency of shoe polish at room temperature. I know that the fuel oils used in ships are lighter, but I doubt that they're anywhere near as light as, say, diesel fuel. Danny, there are many kinds of oil — light oils, heavy oils, lubricating oils, and fuel oils. I suspect that you’re talking about lubricating oils, which are highly refined and contain less of the heavy hydrocarbons that can be dangerous. Fuel oils are only lightly refined and contain a lot more random stuff. The fuel oils used in oil-fired power plants, for example, have the consistency of shoe polish at room temperature. I know that the fuel oils used in ships are lighter, but I doubt that they’re anywhere near as light as, say, diesel fuel.

]]> By: Danny Lemieux http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/11/12/stories-of-the-nanny-state/#comment-16742 Danny Lemieux Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:19:16 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2101#comment-16742 However, I don't agree with Ophi on the issue of oil toxicity. If skin exposure to oil was bad, oil workers the world over would be keeling over from cancer. There are carcinogens in virtually everything we touch, including virtually all the natural foods we eat (e.g., natural benzene in strawberries, for example). As the 16th Century physician/pharmacologist/philosopher Paracelsus so aptly put it, "the dose makes the poison". This, of course, is arguing rationally on the basis of hard facts. I fully concede the point that once the California tort bar intercedes, rational discourse goes out the window. However, I don’t agree with Ophi on the issue of oil toxicity. If skin exposure to oil was bad, oil workers the world over would be keeling over from cancer. There are carcinogens in virtually everything we touch, including virtually all the natural foods we eat (e.g., natural benzene in strawberries, for example).

As the 16th Century physician/pharmacologist/philosopher Paracelsus so aptly put it, “the dose makes the poison”.

This, of course, is arguing rationally on the basis of hard facts. I fully concede the point that once the California tort bar intercedes, rational discourse goes out the window.

]]> By: Danny Lemieux http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/11/12/stories-of-the-nanny-state/#comment-16741 Danny Lemieux Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:11:20 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2101#comment-16741 I'm with Ophi on this one. The point was not that this guy took up the initiative to clean up the mess on his beach, but that he deliberately disobeyed a lawful order. As Martin Luther King acknowledged, to deliberately disobey the Law because it is wrong is courageous, but you have to be willing to accept the consequences. Whether or not the authorities were correct in their decision is a separate question to be handled in a separate venue. I’m with Ophi on this one. The point was not that this guy took up the initiative to clean up the mess on his beach, but that he deliberately disobeyed a lawful order. As Martin Luther King acknowledged, to deliberately disobey the Law because it is wrong is courageous, but you have to be willing to accept the consequences.

Whether or not the authorities were correct in their decision is a separate question to be handled in a separate venue.

]]> By: Ophiuchus http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/11/12/stories-of-the-nanny-state/#comment-16740 Ophiuchus Tue, 13 Nov 2007 05:27:22 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2101#comment-16740 InkMiser, it's easy to bitch and moan about "the bureaucracy" when you're not there. We lose one fire tanker almost every year, and sometimes two. These guys fly right down on the deck in mountainous terrain, in dense smoke, piloting lumbering aircraft that have little maneuverability. Moreover, they can kill people on the ground if they're not careful. You may bitch and moan when your passenger aircraft gets grounded because of a burned-out instrument panel light, but these are the kinds of things that kill people. Yes, most of the time, safety protocols are a pain in the butt. Most of the time, they don't accomplish anything. But every now and then, somebody shortcuts a safety protocol, something goes wrong, and people die. That's when a hue and cry goes up, "Why wasn't something done to prevent this from happening?" We're a society that just loves to blame somebody whenever bad things happen. Give these people a break. InkMiser, it’s easy to bitch and moan about “the bureaucracy” when you’re not there. We lose one fire tanker almost every year, and sometimes two. These guys fly right down on the deck in mountainous terrain, in dense smoke, piloting lumbering aircraft that have little maneuverability. Moreover, they can kill people on the ground if they’re not careful. You may bitch and moan when your passenger aircraft gets grounded because of a burned-out instrument panel light, but these are the kinds of things that kill people. Yes, most of the time, safety protocols are a pain in the butt. Most of the time, they don’t accomplish anything. But every now and then, somebody shortcuts a safety protocol, something goes wrong, and people die. That’s when a hue and cry goes up, “Why wasn’t something done to prevent this from happening?”

We’re a society that just loves to blame somebody whenever bad things happen. Give these people a break.

]]> By: InkMiser http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/11/12/stories-of-the-nanny-state/#comment-16729 InkMiser Tue, 13 Nov 2007 04:30:16 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2101#comment-16729 This is the same state that forced two dozen (I think that was the number) tanker aircraft to sit out the first day of the So-Cal fires because state regulation required a "trained fire spotter" be on board. By the time they got the clearance to fly, the winds were too heavy and it was unsafe. Millions of dollars of damage later . . .Fine, tell Mr. Moser there is risk to cleaning the stuff up. Wow, what a news flash. A substance which is feared to be killing marine wildlife might not be to good for humans either. I'm sure Mr. Moser would be floored. I don't live in California, but I suspect its citizens are not pleased with the disaster response system about now. What we don't know is whether Mr. Moser had been watching the "trained" cleaners doing essentially the same thing he decided to do. I would not be surprised. It's almost like saying to the man whose house is on fire "Hey, put down the hose. You're not trained to put out fires. Put it down or I'm gonna Tase you." This is the same state that forced two dozen (I think that was the number) tanker aircraft to sit out the first day of the So-Cal fires because state regulation required a “trained fire spotter” be on board. By the time they got the clearance to fly, the winds were too heavy and it was unsafe. Millions of dollars of damage later . . .Fine, tell Mr. Moser there is risk to cleaning the stuff up. Wow, what a news flash. A substance which is feared to be killing marine wildlife might not be to good for humans either. I’m sure Mr. Moser would be floored.

I don’t live in California, but I suspect its citizens are not pleased with the disaster response system about now. What we don’t know is whether Mr. Moser had been watching the “trained” cleaners doing essentially the same thing he decided to do. I would not be surprised. It’s almost like saying to the man whose house is on fire “Hey, put down the hose. You’re not trained to put out fires. Put it down or I’m gonna Tase you.”

]]> By: rockdalian http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/11/12/stories-of-the-nanny-state/#comment-16730 rockdalian Tue, 13 Nov 2007 02:22:31 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2101#comment-16730 Fuels are indeed classified as hazardous, mainly due to flammability. Reading the article left me the impression this was ordinary oil. The fact that the park rangers did not arrive on scene in bio hazard suits leads me to believe they knew what the spill consisted of. Fuels are indeed classified as hazardous, mainly due to flammability. Reading the article left me the impression this was ordinary oil. The fact that the park rangers did not arrive on scene in bio hazard suits leads me to believe they knew what the spill consisted of.

]]> By: Ophiuchus http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/11/12/stories-of-the-nanny-state/#comment-16739 Ophiuchus Tue, 13 Nov 2007 02:11:35 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2101#comment-16739 rockdalian, fuel oils are not particularly hazardous, and so I very much doubt that they would fall into any of the serious categories. However, all petroleum products contain tiny amounts of heavy hydrocarbons, some of which are known to be carcinogens. In small amounts, or when properly isolated, they present no threat to anybody. But turn loose -- what was it, some thousands of gallons? -- of this stuff into the open environment and things get stickier (ahem!). Moreover, I believe that the general rule is that, in the opening stages of any spill, when you don't really know exactly what is involved, you treat it as hazardous, relaxing your protocols only after you know exactly what you're dealing with. What if the spill were a mix of benzene and fuel oil? Benzene is highly carcinogenic and is used in a lot of industrial processes, and a benzene spill would be a major health hazard. If they had not established the nature of the spill at the time of the altercation described here, then that ranger was absolutely 100% correct in insisting that those people depart immediately. rockdalian, fuel oils are not particularly hazardous, and so I very much doubt that they would fall into any of the serious categories. However, all petroleum products contain tiny amounts of heavy hydrocarbons, some of which are known to be carcinogens. In small amounts, or when properly isolated, they present no threat to anybody. But turn loose — what was it, some thousands of gallons? — of this stuff into the open environment and things get stickier (ahem!).

Moreover, I believe that the general rule is that, in the opening stages of any spill, when you don’t really know exactly what is involved, you treat it as hazardous, relaxing your protocols only after you know exactly what you’re dealing with. What if the spill were a mix of benzene and fuel oil? Benzene is highly carcinogenic and is used in a lot of industrial processes, and a benzene spill would be a major health hazard. If they had not established the nature of the spill at the time of the altercation described here, then that ranger was absolutely 100% correct in insisting that those people depart immediately.

]]> By: rockdalian http://www.bookwormroom.com/2007/11/12/stories-of-the-nanny-state/#comment-16738 rockdalian Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:31:41 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2101#comment-16738 Oil is not a hazardous material. The Feds do not classify oil as hazardous. No hazardous placards are required for transportation or storage. How do I know? I haul oil by the tankful around the Chicago area for a living. Oil is not a hazardous material. The Feds do not classify oil as hazardous. No hazardous placards are required for transportation or storage. How do I know? I haul oil by the tankful around the Chicago area for a living.

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