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	<title>Comments on: Meditations on structure</title>
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	<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/01/20/meditations-on-structure/</link>
	<description>She escaped from the belly of the liberal beast</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 23:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mike Devx</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/01/20/meditations-on-structure/#comment-19106</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Devx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2387#comment-19106</guid>
		<description>I tend to believe that any "modern art" aficionado demands that the WORTH of the modern work is derived from the author's subconscious.

Any deliberate expression of actual skill - or actual INTENT - is merely a distortional filter that hides true excellence.

This is why Pollack works so well as modern art: His work consists usually of paint flingings, deliberately consciously out of control, with the intended idea that it is his *subconscious* that is directing the flingings, and therefore creating the great art.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to believe that any &#8220;modern art&#8221; aficionado demands that the WORTH of the modern work is derived from the author&#8217;s subconscious.</p>
<p>Any deliberate expression of actual skill - or actual INTENT - is merely a distortional filter that hides true excellence.</p>
<p>This is why Pollack works so well as modern art: His work consists usually of paint flingings, deliberately consciously out of control, with the intended idea that it is his *subconscious* that is directing the flingings, and therefore creating the great art.</p>
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		<title>By: ymarsakar</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/01/20/meditations-on-structure/#comment-19092</link>
		<dc:creator>ymarsakar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2387#comment-19092</guid>
		<description>You might also want to consider Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper, Book, for your thesis.

&lt;a href="http://www.art.com/asp/View_HighZoomResPop.asp?apn=10283523&#38;imgloc=7-783-Z000I922.jpg&#38;imgwidth=873&#38;imgheight=688" rel="nofollow"&gt;Link&lt;/a&gt;

The perspective of that picture is specifically designed to center around Christ's haloed head under the arch. The lines are so sharp and level that you might even think it was CGI generated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might also want to consider Leonardo da Vinci&#8217;s Last Supper, Book, for your thesis.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.art.com/asp/View_HighZoomResPop.asp?apn=10283523&amp;imgloc=7-783-Z000I922.jpg&amp;imgwidth=873&amp;imgheight=688" rel="nofollow">Link</a></p>
<p>The perspective of that picture is specifically designed to center around Christ&#8217;s haloed head under the arch. The lines are so sharp and level that you might even think it was CGI generated.</p>
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		<title>By: Jose</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/01/20/meditations-on-structure/#comment-19093</link>
		<dc:creator>Jose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2387#comment-19093</guid>
		<description>"Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets. Imagination without skill gives us modern art.”
Tom Stoppard

My thoughts on this mostly involve our culture's desire for instant gratification.   The other factor is that arts and entertainment now exist to support, in large part, advertising.

Most consumers of art, music, and entertainment don't expect to spend much time thinking about the experience.  They want to enjoy something and move on to another experience.  They won't sit around with their friends and deconstruct the experience over a meal, or during an evening's socializing.   They won't sit and analyze the product, or ponder over hidden meanings.

The same mindset permeates many who want to become artists - quickly.  They don't want to spend years developing the skills that everyone else labored over in the past.  So they decide to express themselves using some sort of shocking (new) medium and technique.  Negative emotions are the easy to portray, and bodily fluids are readily available.

And besides, there isn't much payoff in laboring over a TV script, or a 3 minute song.  It only has to hold the audience's attention long enough for the advertising to appear.  The standard 3 minutes time limit is imposed by commercial advertising, and it shapes the attention spans' of the masses.  What motivation is there to develop one's skills?

In times past, before the obsession with speed, projects were expected to take much longer.  During the renaissance a painting might take years, and a cathedral might take centuries.  No one today would initiate a project lasting beyond their lifetime.  Our marketing base economy wouldn't support it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets. Imagination without skill gives us modern art.”<br />
Tom Stoppard</p>
<p>My thoughts on this mostly involve our culture&#8217;s desire for instant gratification.   The other factor is that arts and entertainment now exist to support, in large part, advertising.</p>
<p>Most consumers of art, music, and entertainment don&#8217;t expect to spend much time thinking about the experience.  They want to enjoy something and move on to another experience.  They won&#8217;t sit around with their friends and deconstruct the experience over a meal, or during an evening&#8217;s socializing.   They won&#8217;t sit and analyze the product, or ponder over hidden meanings.</p>
<p>The same mindset permeates many who want to become artists - quickly.  They don&#8217;t want to spend years developing the skills that everyone else labored over in the past.  So they decide to express themselves using some sort of shocking (new) medium and technique.  Negative emotions are the easy to portray, and bodily fluids are readily available.</p>
<p>And besides, there isn&#8217;t much payoff in laboring over a TV script, or a 3 minute song.  It only has to hold the audience&#8217;s attention long enough for the advertising to appear.  The standard 3 minutes time limit is imposed by commercial advertising, and it shapes the attention spans&#8217; of the masses.  What motivation is there to develop one&#8217;s skills?</p>
<p>In times past, before the obsession with speed, projects were expected to take much longer.  During the renaissance a painting might take years, and a cathedral might take centuries.  No one today would initiate a project lasting beyond their lifetime.  Our marketing base economy wouldn&#8217;t support it.</p>
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		<title>By: ymarsakar</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/01/20/meditations-on-structure/#comment-19094</link>
		<dc:creator>ymarsakar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2387#comment-19094</guid>
		<description>Barney, if music can only be enjoyed or understood by learning to play and read the sheet music, then the musicality of the "jazz" so to speak is very low.

Dumbing down music is one thing, but when things get so that actual musicians don't get it just by hearing it, then you know something has gone out of whack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barney, if music can only be enjoyed or understood by learning to play and read the sheet music, then the musicality of the &#8220;jazz&#8221; so to speak is very low.</p>
<p>Dumbing down music is one thing, but when things get so that actual musicians don&#8217;t get it just by hearing it, then you know something has gone out of whack.</p>
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		<title>By: Barney</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/01/20/meditations-on-structure/#comment-19095</link>
		<dc:creator>Barney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2387#comment-19095</guid>
		<description>This conversation has really been on my mind.  One of the biggest questions I grapple with is how we as Americans can regain a sense of a shared cultural experience.
One of the things I've love most about jazz is the strong sense of heritage.  The players love to wax reverently  of the pioneers who came before them.  They're keenly aware of the heritage that made their own work possible.  Even young students know who Louis Armstrong and Coleman Hawkins were, what New Orleans and Kansas City and Harlem were all about.
But if, as Bookworm says, the music has become "impenetrable," if, as Dann G. says, the audience feels like it's listening to an in-group conversation of a bunch of specialists in an esoteric field, then maybe it's time for us players to rethink whether we're doing real justice to that heritage.
That said, I do agree that the saccharine and insipid "smooth jazz" is NOT the way to go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This conversation has really been on my mind.  One of the biggest questions I grapple with is how we as Americans can regain a sense of a shared cultural experience.<br />
One of the things I&#8217;ve love most about jazz is the strong sense of heritage.  The players love to wax reverently  of the pioneers who came before them.  They&#8217;re keenly aware of the heritage that made their own work possible.  Even young students know who Louis Armstrong and Coleman Hawkins were, what New Orleans and Kansas City and Harlem were all about.<br />
But if, as Bookworm says, the music has become &#8220;impenetrable,&#8221; if, as Dann G. says, the audience feels like it&#8217;s listening to an in-group conversation of a bunch of specialists in an esoteric field, then maybe it&#8217;s time for us players to rethink whether we&#8217;re doing real justice to that heritage.<br />
That said, I do agree that the saccharine and insipid &#8220;smooth jazz&#8221; is NOT the way to go.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/01/20/meditations-on-structure/#comment-19096</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2387#comment-19096</guid>
		<description>Hello Bookworm,

Well, I'm going to have to eat my words in my previous comment.  I just went from writing that comment to watching a really excellent show, Stephen King's Nightmares and Dreamscapes.  The quality of these shows were just superb and the stories as or more compelling than the original Rod Serling Twilight Zone episodes.  I just finished watching two of three DVD's.  I rented them so I couldn't plow into the third one yet.  That's for later.

Now, I'm going to have to swing in the other direction (but not too drastically, mind you).  There is quality stories are art out there, little gems embedded in this cacophony of gibberish.  But when you find them, boy, are they a treat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Bookworm,</p>
<p>Well, I&#8217;m going to have to eat my words in my previous comment.  I just went from writing that comment to watching a really excellent show, Stephen King&#8217;s Nightmares and Dreamscapes.  The quality of these shows were just superb and the stories as or more compelling than the original Rod Serling Twilight Zone episodes.  I just finished watching two of three DVD&#8217;s.  I rented them so I couldn&#8217;t plow into the third one yet.  That&#8217;s for later.</p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;m going to have to swing in the other direction (but not too drastically, mind you).  There is quality stories are art out there, little gems embedded in this cacophony of gibberish.  But when you find them, boy, are they a treat.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/01/20/meditations-on-structure/#comment-19098</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2387#comment-19098</guid>
		<description>Hello Bookworm,

This is a topic I've thought about for quite a while.  My friends and I have called it the "dumbing down" of America for over eight years now.  In my grimmer moments when I think of the kinds of movies and shows we're producing, I think that, like entropy, our civilization is winding down to where we won't have the capacity to tell compelling stories.  Every once in a while I run across a compelling show on tv or in the movies, but it's getting farther and farther apart each time.

In my more optimistic moments, I can see that the vignettes and the conceptions of some of the stories are as compelling as anything we've ever done.

But there is no question that our arts are dwindling in quality, like infantile regression.  Indeed, most of our major movies are junior high level conceptions.  I think this degeneration is separate and apart from any politics.  I think that our arts are a reflection of where we are at as a culture, and I don't think there is any escaping that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Bookworm,</p>
<p>This is a topic I&#8217;ve thought about for quite a while.  My friends and I have called it the &#8220;dumbing down&#8221; of America for over eight years now.  In my grimmer moments when I think of the kinds of movies and shows we&#8217;re producing, I think that, like entropy, our civilization is winding down to where we won&#8217;t have the capacity to tell compelling stories.  Every once in a while I run across a compelling show on tv or in the movies, but it&#8217;s getting farther and farther apart each time.</p>
<p>In my more optimistic moments, I can see that the vignettes and the conceptions of some of the stories are as compelling as anything we&#8217;ve ever done.</p>
<p>But there is no question that our arts are dwindling in quality, like infantile regression.  Indeed, most of our major movies are junior high level conceptions.  I think this degeneration is separate and apart from any politics.  I think that our arts are a reflection of where we are at as a culture, and I don&#8217;t think there is any escaping that.</p>
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		<title>By: Jauhara al kafirah</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/01/20/meditations-on-structure/#comment-19097</link>
		<dc:creator>Jauhara al kafirah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2387#comment-19097</guid>
		<description>This is a subject that really hits close to home. If it isn't the newer progressive stuff that sounds disjointed and random, it is the saccharine mediocrity of smooth jazz stations...right now I am listening to Bill Charlap. Older school, perhaps, but delicious as comfort food. Timeless. The timeless stuff will never go away.
I tried to get into Taylor Egsti and Djangirov's music, but as skilled technically as those boys are, I just can't digest all those notes. Call me a minimalist...John Lewis and the MJQ kind of minimalist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a subject that really hits close to home. If it isn&#8217;t the newer progressive stuff that sounds disjointed and random, it is the saccharine mediocrity of smooth jazz stations&#8230;right now I am listening to Bill Charlap. Older school, perhaps, but delicious as comfort food. Timeless. The timeless stuff will never go away.<br />
I tried to get into Taylor Egsti and Djangirov&#8217;s music, but as skilled technically as those boys are, I just can&#8217;t digest all those notes. Call me a minimalist&#8230;John Lewis and the MJQ kind of minimalist.</p>
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		<title>By: Dann G.</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/01/20/meditations-on-structure/#comment-19099</link>
		<dc:creator>Dann G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:04:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2387#comment-19099</guid>
		<description>Barney's post points to one of the issues that, I think, leads to the perception , if not the reality, of a shift away from structure. In the past, the audience and the artists shared a much smaller community.  Certainly, the artists (composers, painters, sculptors, etc.) were specialists but their immediate audience was much smaller.  The conversation between artist and audience was almost at a personal level.
Today, in many fields, the audience and practitioners are more widely separated and the conversation is much less intimate.  One result is that the forms become much more directed toward the in-group.  The outsider has a harder time following what is going on.
Some of the people in my own field almost never have contact outside the field.  The interaction has a tendency to become so esoteric that it's not comprehensible (and I sometimes feel that it's not really progressing). The results are harder to understand because the thought process isn't shared.
I, like Bookworm, still enjoy the more accessible forms whether in music or other areas because it is easier to understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barney&#8217;s post points to one of the issues that, I think, leads to the perception , if not the reality, of a shift away from structure. In the past, the audience and the artists shared a much smaller community.  Certainly, the artists (composers, painters, sculptors, etc.) were specialists but their immediate audience was much smaller.  The conversation between artist and audience was almost at a personal level.<br />
Today, in many fields, the audience and practitioners are more widely separated and the conversation is much less intimate.  One result is that the forms become much more directed toward the in-group.  The outsider has a harder time following what is going on.<br />
Some of the people in my own field almost never have contact outside the field.  The interaction has a tendency to become so esoteric that it&#8217;s not comprehensible (and I sometimes feel that it&#8217;s not really progressing). The results are harder to understand because the thought process isn&#8217;t shared.<br />
I, like Bookworm, still enjoy the more accessible forms whether in music or other areas because it is easier to understand.</p>
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		<title>By: Bookworm</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/01/20/meditations-on-structure/#comment-19101</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookworm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://proto2.webloggin.com/?p=2387#comment-19101</guid>
		<description>I'll accept as true everything you say, Barney.  To those of us who are musical troglodytes, though, the structure is impenetrable.  I can grasp the melody and structure right up until the big changes in the 1950s, which have accelerated to the present time, when I can't make head or tail of the music.  Also, it doesn't seem very musical anymore -- that is, structure, if such there is, is king over melody.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll accept as true everything you say, Barney.  To those of us who are musical troglodytes, though, the structure is impenetrable.  I can grasp the melody and structure right up until the big changes in the 1950s, which have accelerated to the present time, when I can&#8217;t make head or tail of the music.  Also, it doesn&#8217;t seem very musical anymore &#8212; that is, structure, if such there is, is king over melody.</p>
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