Comments on: The stupid dance begins again *UPDATED* http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/02/08/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/ She escaped from the belly of the liberal beast Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:21:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Bookworm http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/02/08/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/#comment-19912 Bookworm Sun, 10 Feb 2008 01:31:01 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/#comment-19912 I think, Danny, it's normal if that's all you know. Also, I do understand Lulu's point. I was last in Israel 20 years ago, but I remember thinking what an incredibly vibrant community, especially outside of Jerusalem. I hated Jerusalem. I was too young to value its historicity, but I was certainly sensitive to the hatred oozing out of the inhabitants, by which I mean the Arab hatred for the Jews and the ultra-Orthodox hatred for the seculars. If I never go back to Jerusalem, it will be too soon -- but I sure did love Tel Aviv and Haifa, which are wonderful fusion cities, with all the energy and exotic quality of the Mediterranean, and all of the luxuries and civilities of the West. Those cities' inhabitants are people of tremendous backbone, and the striving for normalcy is what gets them through their days. I think, Danny, it’s normal if that’s all you know. Also, I do understand Lulu’s point. I was last in Israel 20 years ago, but I remember thinking what an incredibly vibrant community, especially outside of Jerusalem. I hated Jerusalem. I was too young to value its historicity, but I was certainly sensitive to the hatred oozing out of the inhabitants, by which I mean the Arab hatred for the Jews and the ultra-Orthodox hatred for the seculars. If I never go back to Jerusalem, it will be too soon — but I sure did love Tel Aviv and Haifa, which are wonderful fusion cities, with all the energy and exotic quality of the Mediterranean, and all of the luxuries and civilities of the West. Those cities’ inhabitants are people of tremendous backbone, and the striving for normalcy is what gets them through their days.

]]> By: Danny Lemieux http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/02/08/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/#comment-19913 Danny Lemieux Sun, 10 Feb 2008 00:23:10 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/#comment-19913 Lulu, with all due respect, having rockets raining down on your head and burqua'd women exploding in your midst is not "normal". Lulu, with all due respect, having rockets raining down on your head and burqua’d women exploding in your midst is not “normal”.

]]> By: Bookworm http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/02/08/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/#comment-19915 Bookworm Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:19:53 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/#comment-19915 Your last point is a comforting one, Lulu. Let's hope that the populace is not only smarter than the politicians, but is able to bend the politicians to popular will. Your last point is a comforting one, Lulu. Let’s hope that the populace is not only smarter than the politicians, but is able to bend the politicians to popular will.

]]> By: Lulu http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/02/08/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/#comment-19914 Lulu Sat, 09 Feb 2008 18:13:12 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/#comment-19914 many Jews, including some Israelis, take Israel for granted. Without Israel, Jews will again be as vulnerable as before WWII. That means, if a government or nation is favorable, they will be secure and comfortable. If not, they will be at risk of expulsion, isolation, or discrimination. Israel is the haven in the storm in a world that has always been unpredictable for Jews. Because the state of Israel has been around long enough that most do not think of the world before its birth, it is easy to forget that much of the feeling of security Jews have today comes from its being there. Even for Jews in vulnerable lands. Yet Book, I think many of your dire predictions for Israel would be tempered if you took a trip there and saw how vibrant and normal life is there. People are not quite rolling over and playing dead yet- though yes, there are concerns. many Jews, including some Israelis, take Israel for granted. Without Israel, Jews will again be as vulnerable as before WWII. That means, if a government or nation is favorable, they will be secure and comfortable. If not, they will be at risk of expulsion, isolation, or discrimination. Israel is the haven in the storm in a world that has always been unpredictable for Jews. Because the state of Israel has been around long enough that most do not think of the world before its birth, it is easy to forget that much of the feeling of security Jews have today comes from its being there. Even for Jews in vulnerable lands.

Yet Book, I think many of your dire predictions for Israel would be tempered if you took a trip there and saw how vibrant and normal life is there. People are not quite rolling over and playing dead yet- though yes, there are concerns.

]]> By: Bookworm http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/02/08/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/#comment-19916 Bookworm Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:21:12 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/#comment-19916 I'm reading Ruth Wisse's wonderful "Jews and Power." At the book's beginning, she explains that, back in Babylonian times, Jews psychologically blunted the victor's power by blaming themselves from falling shy of God's standards. It wasn't that the Babylonians won; it was that the Jews lost. This was part of how they preserved their nationhood in the face of defeat and diaspora. In the old days, though, they still prayed for their enemy's destruction at God's hands, and were willing to let themselves or others serve as the vehicle of that destruction. Israel seems to have lost this last sense -- even you if you lose, it doesn't mean your enemy should win. I’m reading Ruth Wisse’s wonderful “Jews and Power.” At the book’s beginning, she explains that, back in Babylonian times, Jews psychologically blunted the victor’s power by blaming themselves from falling shy of God’s standards. It wasn’t that the Babylonians won; it was that the Jews lost. This was part of how they preserved their nationhood in the face of defeat and diaspora. In the old days, though, they still prayed for their enemy’s destruction at God’s hands, and were willing to let themselves or others serve as the vehicle of that destruction. Israel seems to have lost this last sense — even you if you lose, it doesn’t mean your enemy should win.

]]> By: Danny Lemieux http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/02/08/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/#comment-19917 Danny Lemieux Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:09:28 +0000 http://proto2.webloggin.com/the-stupid-dance-begins-again/#comment-19917 I don't understand either, Book. Did God ever tell the Jews to "repair the world" by committing suicide? I don't think so. I really, really don't get why so many Jews (including some that I know personally who appear normal, anyway) think that it puts them on some kind of moral high plane to wish suicide upon Israel and wish success to those that would kill them simply for being Jews. Did this happen in the 1930s as well? I can't tell you how many times I, as a conservative Christian, have found myself passionately having to defend Israel in discussions with Jews. I really don't understand this. Is it self-hatred? I don’t understand either, Book. Did God ever tell the Jews to “repair the world” by committing suicide? I don’t think so.

I really, really don’t get why so many Jews (including some that I know personally who appear normal, anyway) think that it puts them on some kind of moral high plane to wish suicide upon Israel and wish success to those that would kill them simply for being Jews. Did this happen in the 1930s as well?

I can’t tell you how many times I, as a conservative Christian, have found myself passionately having to defend Israel in discussions with Jews. I really don’t understand this. Is it self-hatred?

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