Am I being insufferably self-righteous?
Bookworm on Apr 15 2008 at 7:04 pm | Filed under: Parenting
I would like your opinion. Mr. Bookworm thinks I’m taking “holier than thou-ness” to a nauseating (and hypocritical) extreme. I think he is on the verge of a parenting error. Here’s the deal:
Mr. Bookworm came across an opportunity to obtain some stuff for the kids without actually going through the shopping process. Indeed, early tonight, he was so strong in his belief that he will be doing this that he told the kids he might be getting a gift for them.
“But if I do, you can’t tell any of your friends about it,” he told. “You have to promise not to.”
“Why not,” I asked?
“Because, well, because it’s illegal.”
My daughter was instantly concerned that the police would be after her. After we assured her they wouldn’t break down our door (especially because this is all hypothetical right now), my husband and I took the discussion out of the kids’ hearing.
I told my husband I strongly disapproved of his going ahead with this project. I’m not worried about the cops breaking down the door. I also conceded that, yes, in the past and in small ways, I too have deviated from the straight and narrow. Heck, I’m willing to bet that each of us has in our possession a CD a friend made for us, filled with songs the friend copied from various albums, and that we’ve made, and given, identical CDs to friends. In other words, I wasn’t fool enough to claim the moral high ground on this one.
My really big problem was that I thought the message my husband sent to the kids, with his warnings about silence, was that it’s okay to steal, as long as you don’t get caught. He responded with long, convoluted arguments about the fact that we weren’t really stealing because, because, because, because, each of which I was able to shoot down. (They were all self-serving sophistry, if you ask me.) He also said I never would have taken this position if it weren’t for my blogging. (Apparently blogging conservatively gives you abnormally heightened sensitivities about honesty and how children perceive parental behavior.)
I really didn’t want to argue about the merits of obtaining the stuff, though, since I thought that was a distraction from the main issue. As far as I was concerned, the whole thing came to a screeching halt, without any further room for discussion, when my husband told the kids that he was thinking about giving them something “illegal” (his word), so they couldn’t tell anyone. The unspoken statement there was that, if they keep mum about it, it’s okay. (The funny thing was, when I asked him why he told the kids the stuff would be illegal, he announced that it was because he was being “honest.”)
In my mind, if we go down this path, we’re paving the way for our kids, when they get older, to believe that they can engage in any type of forbidden activity, as long as they keep it secret. That’s true whether they promise me they’ll go to one friend’s house but, instead, sneak off to another’s; or they take drugs or alcohol; or they have sex; or they cheat; or any of a number of activities parents don’t want for their kids. The fact that, as adults, they may actually do those things, and that many adults commonly commit little crimes and lies (“No, really, that skirt is darling on you!” “Honest, officer, the light was yellow.”), doesn’t mean it’s okay for that message to come from the parents.
So, back to my original question: Am I being an insufferable prig when I say that a parent is setting a terrible example by telling the kids that something they’re getting is illegal, so they better keep it secret?
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23 Responses to “Am I being insufferably self-righteous?”
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Can’t tell if you’re being an insufferable prig or not. However, you are absolutely correct that it’s just plain bad parenting to set an example that condones dishonesty and, worse, swears children to secrecy over something that they know is wrong and that they know you know is wrong. As much as possible, my spouse and I (and, no, we didn’t always agree on child-rearing) have set an example and tried our best to live it. “Don’t drink and drive” means that we don’t drink and drive whether offspring is around to watch or not – and offspring knows that. It’s sometimes quite a shock to see behaviors that are clearly learned from us and think, “Thank goodness, that’s the example we set.” It could easily have not been so.
Good luck with this one, Book!
You are right when you say, “a parent is setting a terrible example by telling the kids that something they’re getting is illegal, so they better keep it secret.” Our lives are the biggest lesson we can ever teach our children. As far as discussing this in front of your children, I sense that this wasn’t your choice, but it’s history.
Sadly, when one partner changes (from liberal to conservative) and the other doesn’t, problems occur. The real danger here is that you begin to play the good parent/bad parent game. Bookworm, your husband is probably right about your blogging but not for the reason you stated. He is saying you spend time blogging that you would have spent with him, if you had not changed. Only you know if he is right and how important your marriage is to you. All four of you are in my prayers. Love, Helen
A deep seeded belief in faith is where one strives for the moral high ground. Integrity is doing what is right even if one knows that no one is watching. Parents are the most important role model for their children.
I started smoking when I was about 12. Mom smoked. The corner store sold individual cigarettes, 2 for a nickel. One day the realization hit me that I was modeling behavior that I did not want my daughters to follow. I quit. Cold turkey.
The point is that you need to stick to your guns.
The moral high ground is easily defendable.
You are being watched.
You’re not being an insufferable prig. You’re taking the right stand on the issue. But there seems to be more going on, as Helen Losse points out: “Sadly, when one partner changes (from liberal to conservative) and the other doesn’t, problems occur.” I know because I, too, changed from liberal to conservative, and my wife didn’t. But there are many issues about which we agree — issues that transcend politics — so our political differences are just “background” (most of the time). The issue you’re writing about should transcend politics. Stick to your guns, for your children’s sake.
You are right, he is wrong.
When you are visiting your kids, 20 years from now, in prison – and you ask “Was it me? What did I do wrong?” They will respond, “Not you, wonderful, principled Mom; it was Dad. Remember when he told us not to tell about the illegal goodies he was getting us? That is what encouraged us on this criminal path.”
Bookworm, You are right, of course, at least as to the lesson he is teaching the kids. Helen, as for spending less time with Mr. Bookworm, if you knew him you’d understand and it has nothing to do with Bookworm’s conversion or her blogging.
I really didn’t want to argue about the merits of obtain the stuff, though, since I thought that was a distraction from the main issue. As far as I was concerned, the whole thing came to a screeching halt, without any further room for discussion, when my husband told the kids that he was thinking about giving them something “illegal” (his word), so they couldn’t tell anyone.
A guy who spends 40+ dollars on netflix per month shouldn’t be talking about giving any bootlegged cds to anyone, especially his children.
He also said I never would have taken this position if it weren’t for my blogging.
Ethics tend to be harder to make convenient when you are operating in an environment that includes several different circles of law, custom, and cultural behaviors.
I try to avoid posting links to material that are copyrighted here, since it is normally rude to do so on other people’s property, especially when you suspect that the owners might object. This is inspite of the many times I have tried to get Book to watch Firefly and the movie Serenity. There are always grey areas like “what if you taped Seinfeld and they released a DVD of all the seasons, but you copied the tapes and gave it to a friend” sorts of things which law was never supposed to cover and never should cover. Regulating each and every decision made between two people is a thing of clockwork intricacies and worlds made up of nothing but cogs.
As Brad Wardell of Sins of a Solar Empire wrote, the pirates don’t matter, the customers are what matters. If a person won’t pay for something, then he won’t pay for it, period.
You can’t give a person a “gift” in the form of bootlegged anything, since the material is worth absolutely nothing. It was worth noting to you cause you paid nothing for and it is worth nothing to the copyright holders because they wouldn’t be getting any revenue from the sale of the material to you in the first place. So long as Mr. Bookworm makes clear that the “gift” he is giving is nothing but air acquired through much legal loopholes and circomlocutions, it should clear up some of the anxieties of the children. Although it won’t solve the legality or parenting problem.
Heck, I’m willing to bet that each of us has in our possession a CD a friend made for us, filled with songs the friend copied from various albums, and that we’ve made, and given, identical CDs to friends.
Scratch out the music part and you would be right.
As far as I was concerned, the whole thing came to a screeching halt, without any further room for discussion, when my husband told the kids that he was thinking about giving them something “illegal” (his word), so they couldn’t tell anyone.
Adults in my generation talk about bootlegged cds and what not all the time.
I was a kid once and I remember often when I responded to questions by others because of what my parents told me, relying upon that sole influence because I did not have any experience I could use personally to base my own views off of. Mr. Bookworm shouldn’t be giving any child such bad advice about the use of copyrighted material without paying for it. He’s not telling them the risks. He’s not telling them the ethical situation. He’s not educating them on the rewards vs the risks or the consequences of their actions, good and bad.
You can also jack into the cable box if it is not locked, and steal bandwidth from paying customers so long as nobody finds out. Maybe he should try that out as well.
The funny thing was, when I asked him why he told the kids the stuff would be illegal, he announced that it was because he was being “honest.”)
Right, being honest so that you can get other people to tell lies about where they got it from, now that’s a solution. What will kids say when another person asks “where did you get this from”. Will they say the truth, which is “Daddy told me it was illegal and not to talk about where I got it from” or will they lie and say “we got it from a store or a friend gave it to us”.
Am I being an insufferable prig when I say that a parent is setting a terrible example by telling the kids that something they’re getting is illegal, so they better keep it secret?
Guy talking about Bush the Terrible and Obama/Clinton the great White/Black hope shouldn’t be trying to sacrifice long term advantage for short term temporary gains.
It would be plain ridiculous for me to give somebody a link and say “don’t tell anybody you got it from me, okay”. It would be even more ridiculous for me to give someone a gift when they could easily have obtained it for themselves.
My daughter was instantly concerned that the police would be after her. After we assured her they wouldn’t break down our door (especially because this is all hypothetical right now), my husband and I took the discussion out of the kids’ hearing.
In addition to the simple retardedness of trying to get someone, especially children, a “gift” in the form of copyrighted material, now we have children being scared of the police and feeing unnecessary anxiety over breaking the law when it ain’t even them breaking the law.
Do people just go out of their way and try to create psychological problems for children or what?
This one is not even a close call, book. They will absolutely remember this and absolutely use this in the future if you do it, whether to justify what they do to you or to justify it for themselves.
As far as telling them the truth about this because he wants to be “honest”, I have to think he was feeling defensive at this point in the conversation. I can’t imagine he really thinks a good demonstration of honesty is to teach the kids about the advantages they can gain with the judicious use of a little dishonesty.
Mr. Bookworm wants something for free. Bookworm wants to teach her kids values.
Whatever it is he wants to get free may have a much more expensive consequence than he realizes. I assume you are referring to something like a bootlegged movie- but regardless of what it is, you are not comfortable and he needs to listen to that.
This might be a little harsh but perhaps you can give your kids a different perspective. Those drawings, crafts, and what not they do (treasures.) Take them down and tell them “why your creativity is freely available to anyone who wants it so I gave them away.”
BW,
You are in the right; your husband’s actions are not in line. “Integrity” remains a watchword in the military – in fact it is one of the key seven leadership principles we teach. Doing the right thing when no one is looking is so very important in our environment – little things done wrong can pile up into big problems. If one wants an extreme example, then take the result of a convoy not conducting proper planning, having a good sleep plan, and not doing individual weapons maintenance. Everyone has heard of it – those were the factors that led to the capture of Pvt Jessica Lynch and her companions. Just little things, each of which could have been solved by a bit more thought and integrity, resulting in lost lives and the capture of friendly soldiers. Another one is Abu Ghraib – leaders neglected to check up on their people and keep them honest. A lack of integrity caused the abuses; an honorable group (including a sailor and some of the accused interrogators) stepped up and reported it.
On another note; your husband is a lawyer as well, correct? Would it be good to remind him of the ethics involved in your shared profession and the possible reflection on his image and reputation if people would consider him unethical?
Small steps off the path lead to getting lost; what is the difference, except scale, in a small theft and grand larceny? To quote part of Churchill’s famous retort “…we’ve already established that, we’re just haggling over the price.”
Off to work, have a great one!
SGT Dave – “What you do is always seen by someone who judges you and will find you wanting – Yourself.”
I’m not going to judge either one of you, but I’ll tell you a story my mother told me. It seems that during her childhood, my grandfather was making booze in the basement. On Sunday, he would load up the backseat of the Model A , cover the hooch with a blanket, and have my mother and her sister sit on top of it. Then he would proceed to make deliveries around the country side. Even though it was during the depression and he was doing it to feed the family she said “I was scared that the cops would catch us and throw us in jail!”. Prohibition was latter repealed and I don’t recall her ever doing anything illegal after that.
I think you are absolutely right, Bookworm. I don’t believe it has anything to do with politics or blogging, either. It is one of those teaching moments that come up all the time, when values and views collide and should be discussed. I don’t believe it damages children to know that adults have such discussions (as long as the arguments are kept fair.) It is good for them to know that even adults can develop their opinions and change their minds about things and have rational, civil arguments on principles. I would hope Mr. Bookworm would have a followup conversation with the kids about regretting the idea of involving them in a conspiracy about “illegal” stuff, after he’s had a chance to mull it all over.
It is understandable we become more sensitized to these things once we are parenting the small ones who are watching us and remembering everything so clearly–their future depends on such little things we say and do. It is not so important when it is just we adults cutting corners on little things and not getting caught–then it is only we who pay the consequences, and in this society, so much can slide. But we must be more careful and more vigilant with our kids.
Had a similar moment years back when my children were younger and my son, just entering his teens, didn’t eat much–my husband urged him to “pretend to be younger” and order what he wanted from the children’s menu at an eatery we went to. Untactful but frank me initiated a discussion on the spot of how that wasn’t the right thing to do, and it would be better and not involve lying if my son just admitted to the server that he was 13 but would really prefer to order from the kids’ menu if possible–they would probably let him. Fortunately my husband was a good sport about being shown up in the restaurant that day, but he immediately “got it” that it was not a good thing to encourage our kids to lie in order to “get stuff.” And that it developed character to find a better, more honest way of dealing with the situation.
Same with getting into movies or museums at the “Child’s” rate: my family knows I won’t stand for (and now they don’t either) lying about ages to pay a lower price. We are honest and we pay our own way.
My attitude is that my children should know that we don’t fool around about honesty and integrity in cases like these; it is very important to take that seriously and have integrity even in the small things–just like when Abraham Lincoln walked ten miles to the store and back to return five cents in incorrect change. And even that apochryphal story about George Washington admitting he cut down the cherry tree–the point was, he had character and integrity.
When I let my kids take a day off from school (actually play parent-sanctioned “hookey” when visiting relatives came to town, for example), I told them I can’t write a note to the school saying they were sick–I say they were home with me for “family reasons.” I tell them if I get in trouble with the school about that, I will deal with the consequences, since I made the decision to let them stay home that day–but I will not lie about it. I hope I am modeling honesty and taking responsibility for my decisions.
We have told our kids the meaning behind copyright laws, and since my kids are creative, they understand it is wrong to rip off the creative products of other people, especially people whose artistic products they admire. To save money to “get stuff” just because you want it and in the process lose your integrity and honesty is a bad bargain–I hope my kids have gotten this message loud and clear. That it is better to go without, or to wait and save and pay the price honorably–than to get something by dishonest means. I tell my kids I want them to stay out of trouble and sleep well at night, knowing they have done the right thing.
Have read some glowing memoirs of people who remember small acts of kindness and scrupulous honesty of their parents that made lasting impressions for a lifetime–that’s the kind of memories I hope my kids will have of me.
Can’t blame Mr. Bookworm too much–it takes practice and some self-conscious thinking to recognize little things easily overlooked and discounted in the ordinary adult world that become so important in parenting.
Just another case of my children making me a better person.
BW,
You are not being self-righteous to any degree.
You are being a parent and considering your children’s future.
Yes, once Mr. BW told the kids it was illegal, he made it impossible to execute his promise.
I do think there is some validity to the idea that if one is active in multiple spheres, church, medicine, business, family, civic groups, someone’s lack of integrity would be more rapidly exposed. But such destructive behavior would eventually rust into the open reguardless of the restricted nature of one’s life.
Blogging fails to qualify for that self-policing activity. Just briefly scan some of the liberal blogs.
It’s the contributors to a group which set the tone. The Bookworm Room attracts thoughtful minds accomplishment and integrity.
I am concerned, as I think all of us are, about Mr. BW’s proposal and potential outcome.
Maybe the congnative dissonance of the primaries is moving him to a more conservative epiphany. I cherish you and yours, and you are all in my prayers.
Al
Hey Bookworm, Jodi here. I think that Mr. Bookworm could have given his “gift” without all the “illegal” talk. Since he used the “I” word; I don’t think its a good idea. I think that Mr. Bookworm needs to tell the kids he made a mistake and go out and get them something nice…..from the store.
That being said, I don’t pass judgment and I don’t think that this incident is going to be detrimental to the health your children’s young minds or get you that warm spot in Hell. Having read you I know that you are deeply rooted with commonsense as I am sure Mr. Bookworm is also; liberal or not.
Besides, this incident is a total guy thing. Show me a guy who hasn’t exhibited this type of behavior and I will truly be surprised.
Its all good Bookie, don’t fret over it too much.
Hi BW,
I ran your question and the background information past my bride and she laughed. She thinks whatever it is Mr. BW wants to give the kids is really something he wants to play with too.
And the “illegal” aspect may be in the eye of the beholder.
From Jo’s perspective, it’s definitely a Guy thing. And it “sounds like something really fun”.
Maybe we’re getting all too serious.
Keep us posted
Al
Book, your husband is not merely on “the verge of a parenting error”, he’s already made one.
The worst to me is deliberately placing the burden for coping with an illegality upon children. Under no circumstances should he have involved them in it.
I can’t speak to the seriousness of the infraction because you’ve given no details. But even in a case where a family is starving and the parents steal food to feed them, I would never tell the children that the food had been stolen.
You’re right. Mr. Bookworm is wrong. The fact that he told the kids not to tell anybody that he is giving them this – whatever it is – is sufficient proof that he knows he’s absolutely wrong. And he needs to think of the kids rather than his reluctance to admit he fouled up.
Don’t tell anybody? If word gets out – oh, and it always does – who will suffer? Probably only Mr. Bookworm. His reputation will suffer. He might not want his friends to know he’s done this. But that should be a distant second. The kids will know. And they won’t forget.
Stick to your guns, Toots!
I don’t think this is about legal vs illegal. I have a feeling here, since I don’t know the ages of your children or Mr. Book that this is more about behaving like a ‘cool dad’.
I tend to look at a discussion or event from what happened in the day/weeks prior to the exchange.
The question is left, why on earth did he ‘suggest’ he might be getting them a gift and then add the caveat, don’t tell anyone. This is not a gift but a manipulation. Moreover, it left your daughter feeling uncomfortable.
Time for Mom and Dad to have a chat in a quiet place and find out what’s the real agenda.
Interesting comment, DQ, one of those wherein what you didn’t say is a great deal more revealing than what you did.
As everybody has recognized – and as probably the children know as well – their father is quite wrong, their mother is quite right.
Unless of course you see yourself as Ma Barker, and are planning to run a criminous enterprise when they get older.
Yeah of course you are right. This is a no-brainer.
You are right. As the mom of 4 (15- 24), I can tell you this is one that WILL come back to bite you. Kids have enough trouble figuring out right from wrong without parents muddying the waters to save a few bucks. This one WILL be used against you in the court of teenage life, so stick to your position now, and forever save yourself, heaps of trouble down the road.
Book,
Right is right and Left is wrong.
Nothing personal to Mr. BW, though.
In Christ,
ExP(Jack)