Obama calls ordinary Americans racists
Bookworm on Jun 21 2008 at 5:39 pm | Filed under: Barack Obama
I’ve reminded you to be proud of your new age racism — a racism firmly based, not on Obama’s skin color, but on his political views, scary associates, corruption and incompetence. It’s becoming more and more clear that we all need to hang onto the fact that our Year 2008 racism problem is grounded in Obama’s policies, not his race at all. Why? Because Obama himself (as opposed to his various spokespeople) is coming out from under cover and being very blatant about calling average Americans really bad names:
“We know what kind of campaign they’re going to run. They’re going to try to make you afraid,” Obama said at the fundraiser. “They’re going to try to make you afraid of me. He’s young and inexperienced and he’s got a funny name. And did I mention he’s black?”
Maybe it’s just me, but I fail to see the hope and unity in an American presidential candidate who doesn’t bother to attack his political opponent (that would be McCain), but instead launches a particularly nasty name-calling political attack against ordinary American voters.
Hat tip: LGF
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In short, the Republicans will do what Senator Clinton already did.
There’s this notion we all learned in school: “If I’ve got the name, I might as well play the game.”
I’m going to watch the race. The NASCAR race this afternoon. So I won’t be typing about this all day.
But the more posts I see about how bad (scary, socialist, you fill it in) that Obama is the more I am convinced I was right in the first place. Racism is alive and well in the US.
There are two kinds of racism: individual and systemic. Many people have left individual racism behind with out understanding that systemic racism hides behind PC language and racial profiling, that we silently condone.
If we do not speak out against the triple evils: racism, poverty and war, we are racist (not because of what we do to the black guy at wok) but because we do not really care if the playing field is level.
Too many people want to put the cart before the horse. First we must level the playing field, then we can compete. As long as we continue to compete on a field that is slanted, white people (as a group, not necessarily individuals) will always win.
Republicans scream “socialist” many times a day. And yet, they never come up with a better way to level the field (and thus, fight racism). Republicans want to talk “policy.” And yet all they do is try to blemish a good man’s character. This is “trying to make people afraid.” How is it “nasty” to say what blacks have been saying since the times of slavery?
How many times have I heard someone say they are “afraid” of Obama? Fighting racism, poverty and war is great way to establish peace. The US is a nation that was conceived in racism and needs to purge racism from her being. Voting for Obama is a perfect opportunity.
Now, as I said, I’m going to be busy. So don’t bother on my account to nitpick this statement. But nitpick, you will. So nitpick on.
I think Luntz is absolutely correct:
It’s not ideology that will decide the election but who can get things done.
“Obama and McCain may have captured their respective party nominations on the parallel themes of hope and heroism, but for floating voters, hope isn’t going to reduce the country’s dangerous dependence on foreign oil, and heroism will not fix the housing collapse or put struggling middle-class voters back to work. Pocketbook issues are as important as character concerns for these voters, and they will be watching closely over the next four months to see who can deliver. Period. History suggests that in times of anxiety and cynicism, Americans turn to a leader they trust to get things done.”
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-luntz22-2008jun22,0,6466236.story
I’m not going to nitpick anything, Helen. But reading your post I get the sense that I am reading a latter-day testimonial from a religious zealot of an earlier century. We are born in sin and Satan’s snares are everywhere, etc. I get the feeling that there is no emetic strong enough to purge racism from the nation and thus we will always be doing our penance and confessing our sins and reciting the dogma over and over again and twisting ourselves and society in all kinds of knots. What did Thomas Sowell write about the vision of the annointed, or Eric Hoffer about the true believer? Skip NASCAR, dear and read their books.
>>First we must level the playing field, then we can compete.>>
Not in this lifetime. We are not born equal, we will not die equal. There is no way to “level” the playing field in this life. That is not racism, that is life. Even Darwin recognized that some were “fitter” than others!
>>The US is a nation that was conceived in racism and needs to purge racism from her being. Voting for Obama is a perfect opportunity.>>
Helen this is such tripe.
Now I remember what Helen’s “belief” system reminds me of:
BFSkinner’s behavioral conditioning. We are what we are because of our nurture, and we cannot be other. If you deny it, and claim that you have free will, then that’s just because you’ve been conditioned to believe that. Perfectly circular thinking. No matter what you think, it’s because you’ve been conditioned to think that. Facts don’t matter. Reality doesn’t matter - it’s all a matter of conditioning.
The US is a nation that was conceived in racism and needs to purge racism from her being.
Helen, are you so naïve to believe that bigotry/ethnocentrism/racism is unique to the United States? For example, I was called a “white m* f* c*” in Trinidad for the sin of wearing Bermuda shorts, in a country where shorts are very common among the locals. So it wasn’t as if I were violating the local customs. I was twice invited into houses in South America that featured prominent portrait of Adolf Hitler in the living room. I have never seen a house in the US that featured a portrait of Hitler. Do you think Obama would stand a ghost of a chance of being elected in Great Britain or in France? Would France or Great Britain have two black cabinet members? Sorry, Helen, when it comes to bigotry/ethnocentrism/racism, the US comes off pretty well. We are far from being the great sinner.
Regarding institutional racism. The schools in DC have been gross failures for years. By contrast, the schools in lily white North Dakota are fairly successful. Institutional racism? Research the money spent per student: as I recall, DC spends about twice per student as does North Dakota, and gets much worse results. Institutional racism? It ain’t that easy.
Voting for Obama is a perfect opportunity. ( to purge racism..)
Which reminds me of the old practice of buying papal indulgences. Pay the church some ducats, be purged of one’s sins and go to heaven. Vote for Obama, be purged of the sin of racism. Sorry folks, it ain’t that easy. Again, Helen, are you that naïve?
More about Obama. The guy’s just another politician.
http://130.80.29.3/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/casey/5808894.html
I have previously commented on the idea that racism can be purged. Love those blue links. Much more visible.
>>Now, as I said, I’m going to be busy. So don’t bother on my account to nitpick this statement. But nitpick, you will. So nitpick on.>>
Otherwise known as ” I can’t HEAAAARRR youuuu”…..
Is there an emoticon out there with fingers in the ears????
But we in America are “racist”….
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2008/06/out-damnd-spot-chinas-potemkin-village.html
Helen,
Thank you for sharing your opinions; thank goodness that you aren’t entitled to your own facts.
Your posts remind me of a quote by Daniel Patrick Moynihan that the problem with leftist thinking is that it claims to divine intentions at a distance, and tries to turn every statement of fact into a question of motive.
If your are interested in some possible structural causes of “systemic racism”, you might want to read my comments #22 and #23 (if I may be so immodest) found in Bookworm’s post “say-it-loud-say-it-proud-i-am-a-racist”, before you hijacked that thread into a public examination of the state of your own immortal soul.
Nonetheless, I commend you on the jargon-free clarity of your prose — you are admirably clear on what you stand for.
Good comebacks, all of you. Helen is a socialist who sees the world through racism-colored glasses, and there’s no getting around that.
Helen said, “Republicans scream “socialist” many times a day. And yet, they never come up with a better way to level the field (and thus, fight racism).”
It’s all about leveling the field, i.e. equality of results. No wonder she likes Obama. The fact that he’s black - wow, like winning the daily double.
Any person who can call you a racist for arguing against the evils of socialism loses all credibility. She’s off on her own planet. Let her watch NASCAR. People going round and round in circles and never getting anywhere. Perfect.
We can’t win this argument with Helen. Reason doesn’t penetrate. But if you, like I, sometimes find that you can’t just sit there and read something like Helen’s comment without taking to your keyboards, then I surely understand that!
Judy -
I read your NASCAR comment and snorted I laughed so hard! How apropos.
Have a good week!
Deana
>>if you, like I, sometimes find that you can’t just sit there and read something like Helen’s comment without taking to your keyboards, then I surely understand that!>>
I agree with you 100%. The problem I see is that statements such as Helen make should not go unanswered. Not for Helen’s sake, but because you just never know who’s reading. Leaving statements such as she makes unanswered can leave the impression that there _is_ no answer - that she’s correct. I’d really hate for some impressionable soul to leave with that idea!
Hat tip LGF?
The loudest mouths at LGF will go capo when things get hot.
Helen -
Americans are not afraid of Obama the man, the individual. They are afraid of the policies he says he supports. It is not racist to listen to what a person says he believes, realize that you do not agree with that person’s ideas and beliefs, and then discuss your concerns with others.
You also just confirmed what I have suspected for a long time: many of Obama supporters are voting for him in part or entirely because they believe their vote for him will purify them of guilt they feel. It will make these people feel good about themselves.
That is one of the differences between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives do not care whether a candidate makes them “feel good.” They don’t care. They just want to know what the candidates’ positions are, what they believe, what they want to see happen if they are granted the presidency. That’s kind of the point, you know?
Deana
suek, you’re right about not wanting to leave Helen’s comments go unchallenged. That’s why I do it too. But expecting Helen herself to acknowledge the validity of our arguments is futile.
Deana, glad I made you laugh. Sorry you haven’t figured out, though, that wanting to know Obama’s positions and what he’s going to do if he gets in office is racist. Baaaaaaad girl, Deana!
The C S Lewis essay dangers of national repentance is relevant to this discussion.
Deana,
RE: “You also just confirmed what I have suspected for a long time: many of Obama supporters are voting for him in part or entirely because they believe their vote for him will purify them of guilt they feel. It will make these people feel good about themselves.”
Not so. I got over the guilt long ago. I want to level the playing field. I want a black man to lead us. But it is true, I agree with his policies. I would have voted for any Democrat and supported Hillary Clinton in the primary. Actually John Edwards was my first choice.
But Obama makes it possible for me to vote for a Democrat and a black man simultaneously. If, on the other hand, the Republicans had nominated Condoleezza Rice, her race alone would not have convinced me to vote for her. Race alone is not my deciding factor.
Judy,
RE: ” . . . Helen herself to acknowledge the validity of our arguments is futile.”
Not so. See comments to Deanna.
If you truly believe that MCCain’s policies are better for the country than Obama’s, then it is obvious to me that you should vote for him. But what I’m saying is, a vote for McCain will do nothing to combat racism. A vote for Obama will. If fighting racism is important, a vote for Obama is the way to go.
And all who commented on my NASCAR watching,
I do serious work much of the time. But on weekends I watch NASCAR, which is a total break from reality for me. Note: I think it’s a way of life and a profession for those in it. But like other sports, to me, the outcome really matters little. Watching NASCAR is taking a break.
But FYI, Kyle Busch won.
Helen says, “Race alone is not my deciding factor.” If race is any factor at all, in your decision to vote for or against anyone, you are a racist.
But that’s about the definition of “racism,” DQ. I’m not going there.
“But what I’m saying is, a vote for McCain will do nothing to combat racism.”
Racism is so far down on the list of what worries me this election as to have virtually no importance at all. I don’t like McCain. I think he would do many things wrong. I like Obama even less. I think he would do more things wrong. What a pity we’re left with such poor choices!
I don’t care if we never have a black president. And I don’t care if every president we have from now on (after Obama loses) is black. I care what’s on the inside.
By the way, there’s nothing wrong with NASCAR. (Don’t tell anyone, but I’m occasionally drawn to watch “Deal or No Deal.”)
They’re
He means McCain supporters, of course.
I want to level the playing field.
You’d be a supporter of American Empire and demanding that Kurdistan and all the other American occupied and nations with American bases be able to apply for State hood, if you really wanted to level the playing field for humanity. But you don’t. You don’t because you only care to “level the playing field” here in America, for Americans.
Why else would you wish that except that you feel guilty about America or what Americans have done?
Alternatively, you could be isolatonist, but that would still contradict “progressive ideology”. At least, the superficial tenets of progressive ideology.
Race alone is not my deciding factor.
it is correct that concerning black politics, race isn’t really the deciding factor. Money, wealth, and influence are. If you are white and willing to kow tow to black politics, then you are golden. If you are black and aren’t willing to toe the line, then you’re bad. It is as simple as that, and it has little to do with race, except when it is convenient to make it so.
But what I’m saying is, a vote for McCain will do nothing to combat racism.
The same is true for Obama. Obama as President will do nothing to cure racism or make people more tolerant. An Obama as President will be the same as Arafat as leader of the Palestinians. There will always be another excuse for another race war and riot produced because ending race conflicts decreases the power of the autocrats.
But that’s about the definition of “racism,” DQ. I’m not going there.
Cause that usually just ends the argument right then and there, once we have defined racism to be different than your views, Helen. For how could, then, we be wrong for not voting in Obama if we wanted to eradicate racism, when your view of how to eradicate racism is exactly the racism we seek to get rid of?
First we must level the playing field, then we can compete.
Since Obama will never level the playing field, even assuming it can be leveled past a certain efficiency point, what we have is an autocratic class of elites and aristocrats that use their wealth and power to ensure that their autocracy maintains power. If in order to level the playing field, we have to vote Obama in, and then we can compete on “equal terms”, then this means all kinds of special treatment is justified on the part of Obama for his cronies and “friends” in order to “level” the playing field. Of course, the playing field will only get more skewed, and that just brings in more justification for why Obama needs to have more special privileges.
It’s a never ending cycle that is far more pernicious than any kind of “cycle of violence”.
And yet all they do is try to blemish a good man’s character.
Part of what makes good character in court is character witnesses. We have plenty of character witnesses on Obama’s character.
How is it “nasty” to say what blacks have been saying since the times of slavery?
Cause what makes slave revolts possible should not be the path people who are interested in real human progress should go on.
Fighting racism, poverty and war is great way to establish peace.
An Obama administration will send fear into the hearts of those who have established peace, ended war on the side of good, replaced poverty with capitalism, and replaced racism with national unity and patriotism.
The US is a nation that was conceived in racism and needs to purge racism from her being.
You may justify yourself by saying that you have purged your personal guilt, but all you have done is displaced it upon America. Erroneously, for that matter.
Nonetheless, I commend you on the jargon-free clarity of your prose — you are admirably clear on what you stand for.=gpc31
I think the commenters of Bookworm room have made it clear to helen that we would prefer clear statements of belief, rather than justifications which we will argue endlessly over.
It saves much more time now a days than what might have happened before.
Y., Precisely what I said, nit picking!
Helen, if Y’s response line by line to your comment is nit picking, then obviously all your original comment contains is a pile of nits. Is that what you meant?
Clarity of review and vision requires that you allow yourself to see what you are responding to. Given that you have never allowed yourself to see the true state of American and world history, helen, you are unable to manufacture the correction solutions to real problems.
The personal guilt aspect will never go away, regardless of how much you wish it to, so long as your personal motivations for race balancing remains in your displacement of personal vices unto the nation as national vices.
How can the nation be responsible for your or your race’s crimes?
Helen:
You’re just the kind of guilt ridden white person Obama wants to vote for him, because you seem to think that you can “level the playing field” and guarantee outcome, rather than opportunity. People like you are naive in the extreme and I really wish you didn’t have a voter registration card because you really are not bright enough to elect the leader of the free world and useful idiots like you shouldn’t be allowed to vote because you don’t understand the issues, and I bet, like most libs, you’ve never read a history book in your whole insular life.
Guess what? Hitler was a socialist. Stalin was a socialist. Mussolini was a socialist. Russia was socialist until just recently. Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales are socialists…care to move to Venezuela? Do you want to wait years to live in a 1 room apartment and share a bathroom with all your neighbors? Is this the sort of government you want? You’d probably be the president of your local committe of snitches, spying on your neighbors and turning them in for ideological impurity….
What’s gonna happen when all the guys like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the Congressional Black Caucus start wanting their piece of the Obama pie? Do you really want every black person in America to get a check for “reparations?” Given your previous posts, the answer is probably yes….but, did you know that there was an entire COMMUNITY of free blacks in New Orleans who were NEVER slaves? You gonna pay them? And what about black people who came to this country as indentured servants and were freed upon completion of their indenture? They were never slaves in the technical sense of the word either….you gonna pay their decendents too?
The last time I checked, it is against the law to deny housing and employment to anyone based on their religion, ethnicity and/or sexual orientation. How much more level does your field need to be? Do you feel so guilty that you’re willing to move to the ‘hood?
You really need to turn off the boob toob and pick up a history book. You might start with The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and learn a little about what socialism really is before you cast your vote for it. People like you disgust me. You haven’t a clue what you’re actually voting for because you are too lazy to pick up an actual book and find out what you’re voting for…sorry but there’s no Cliff Notes version of life and you’re taking short cuts with MY future too, and I don’t like it one bit.
Rock on, useful idiot.
Judy, LOL
I really meant, do you ever get the whole or just see the pieces?
**
Y., I went to grad school to see the “true state of American and world history.” And I did.
As for not ever losing “the personal guilt aspect will never go away,” you are wrong. Racism is sin: sin can be forgiven. Mine is. Jesus, remember?
There is personal racism (sin), and there is national racism (systemic racism, national sin). You did not parse the line that said that.
“There are two kinds of racism: individual and systemic. Many people have left individual racism behind without understanding that systemic racism hides behind PC language and racial profiling, that we silently condone.” From comment 3#. Pretend they’re bold.
A person can be forgiven for personal racism (maybe you have. I don’t know. OR, not ever feel guilty for it in the first place.) and continue to live in a country where systemic racism is present. An individual is responsible personally only for personal racism.
Neither you nor I ever held slaves nor did our grandparents. And if we treat blacks equally we hold no personal guilt. We didn’t personally write the constitution nor approve of slave and free states, etc. BUT we do get to vote now. Thus, we can use our vote to correct national systemic errors (sins), including racism.
You are so busy looking for some detail I might have gotten wrong that you fail to look for any grain of truth I might write. That’s silly. You are depriving yourself of information due to your own brilliant self.
We all know something worth telling. Talk to any two year old to prove this.
**
Duchess (that’s a mighty high opinion of yourself) Honey,
A level playing field is equality of opportunity. DUH.
AND DON”T CALL ME AN IDIOT!!! Attack ideas. Not character. I think that was part of my original point. People who think differently from you are not idiots. I’m not an idiot and neither are you.
People who want Obama to be president, regardless of reason, should have the right to vote. Some people sweat blood fro that right. Remember Fannie Lou Hamer? Or have you been too busy studying socialists?
Of course, every black person in American doesn’t need a check for reparations. Some of them have more money that I do (and maybe you, too. I have no idea how much money you have.) What black people want is an apology and money for the poor blacks.
I keep putting together the triple evils: Racism, poverty, and war. The must be fought together. See Martin Luther King Jr., “Where Do We Go From Here? Chaos or Community” (1964)
As for picking up books. Honey, I have a MALS, mostly in African American history. My thesis on Martin Luther King Jr. is available through Wake Forest University. Try inter-library loan. That’s Helen Losse, “Making All Things New: The Value of Unmerited Suffering in the Life and Works of Martin Luther King Jr.” (2000) And yes, I own and have read most of the books in the bibliography.
Rock on, YOU NAME CALLING SELF-NAMED ROYALTY. You may think you’re a duchess but I think you’re a regular gal (a common Republican who hasn’t seen the underside and doesn’t want to).
History books don’t really do anything for you if you are unwilling to take a critical look at your assumptions in order to change them in the face of new and unknown factors.
I went to grad school to see the “true state of American and world history.” And I did.
Education is a life long advocation. It is not something one goes to school, acquires, and then no longer have to worry about.
Higher education these days is notoriously lacking in completeness and context. Especially if you chose a Liberal Arts college and vocation, which you did.
Racism is sin: sin can be forgiven. Mine is. Jesus, remember?
So Jesus gives a pass on sin for individuals, but not for America as a whole? Then how come for America to be redeemed, individual Americans must pay the price? This some kind of con game being run on technicalities or something.
An individual is responsible personally only for personal racism.
Yet it is the individual in America that pays taxes and gives the American government the power to do things. Unless you have forgotten where the power and wealth the US government has, comes from. There’s no way you can hold the American government or nation responsible without also holding individual Americans responsible for things they never individually did.
Thus, we can use our vote to correct national systemic errors (sins), including racism.
You can’t use the vote to correct things. The system either corrects itself or people elect people that will correct things and kick out people that don’t. Since Obama wasn’t born in slavery days and his ancestry came from Africa, who was part of the slave trade getting rich off Europeans, why would such an individual be able to “correct national systemic errors” that you assume to have originated centuries ago?
Duchess, just a friendly reminder that Helen is right — at my blog, we challenge ideas, not people. As it happens, I don’t agree with Helen’s ideas either, but she knows that she can come here to air them and defend them in an intellectually challenging, but not hostile, environment.
Helen knows, since I’ve been saying it for a long time, that once government puts down its heavy hand to create equality of outcome, things do become worse and worse for the citizens of that state. Since Helen is a very literary person, I recommend that she read Kurt Vonnegut’s wonderful short story, Harrison Bergeron (here’s a spoiler link), which envisions the efforts of a government committed to ensuring that no citizen feels bad because another citizen is better in any way than any other citizen.
The story is a good reminder that, as in math, socialist governments function in a lowest common denominator world. There is no doubt that I cannot be as fast as a famous athlete, as creative as a famous artist, and as successful, innovative and risk-taking as a famous entrepreneur. It is impossible to bring me up to them. It is entirely possible, however, using the massive weight of the government, to bring them down to me — to deny the athlete the right to practice (that would be Title IX, already in effect), to deny the artist a true outlet (look at the Soviet Union for Communist controlled art), or to allow the entrepreneur to use the market, creating wealth for himself and others (look at every socialist country that’s tried to manage the economy).
The only government that truly allows its people to freely be what they are is one that ensures a fair game and then gets out of the way.
But, Helen, you go there all the time, calling every white in America either a racist or a recovering racist, using your (in my humble opinion warped) definition of racism. If you can call people racists using your definition, surely I can call people racists using mine.
Duchess, I want to reinforce what BW said. Helen shows a lot of courage to post here knowing that the ideas in her posts will not usually be well received. Please respect her person, and attack only her ideas. Granted, we tend to use labels to describe groups of people (as when Helen attacks all white American as racist or recovering racist, or when I use “liberal” as a shorthand for a whole lot of ideas I think are wrong-headed). But personal attacks, like calling Helen an idiot, do not advance the dialogue and are not appropriate here.
Helen,
One thing I appreciate about you is your honesty. Many liberals cloak their intentions with a well-honed doublespeak.
I’m curious, Helen, what is your definition of racism. What is it that you are trying to atone for?
I noticed in a previous post you didn’t want to go down this road, but if we are not talking about the same thing, we’ll just be talking past each other and our blog voices will rise as we shout past each other.
The classic definition of racism is:
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
The new definition of a racist, according to the University of Delaware is a white person.
Yes, DQ,
You can use your definition of racism. But it does nothing to advance the dialog, because I think Obama’s definition is closer to mine. And it is Obama’s ideas (not yours or mine) that should affect how we will vote in November, (not that I don’t think we bring ourselves and our experience to the table).
**
Y.,
My education is far from over. But liberal studies refers to history, art, literature, etc. as opposed to math and science (rather than liberal v. conservative). Would majoring in math give you a better sense of history? LOL
The concept of personal and national sin is Biblical (old and new testaments). And yes, Jesus died for personal sins. Nations will be judged differently.
And yes, the government’s power comes from individuals.
BrainE,
Racism is prejudice against people of another race (or color) and the power to keep people of that race as an underclass.
That’s why I keep emphasizing systemic racism. Many of us have little power to keep anyone anywhere. But the government (system) does have that power.
In the US, because of history (slavery, Jim Crow, etc), white people are the racists. Of course, black people can be racist under different circumstances. Racism exist first, then slavery and Jim Crow laws came, as a result of it (racism).
Helen…
How do you see the election of Obama “erasing” the national “sin”? Would _just_ his election accomplish this? or would more be required? In other words, if Obama were to be elected and sworn in, and the next day he dies - from whatever cause - would this still satisfy the requirement? or are you making the assumption that the policies he would be likely to enact be the determinant?
Suek, What you ask is logical. No, Obama’s swearing in wouldn’t be the end. Laws must be enacted that take us in this direction. Actually, I think - like the Holocaust - if we don’t keep the idea of “never again” in our midst, we’ll drift backwards. Racism is not anyone’s only sin. Never was, and never will be.
All you want is the playing field leveled - it’s time to grow up, y’know? Can’t do it any younger. Are any playing fields anywhere ever level in life? Is everyone’s IQ the same? Is the desert as capable of growing food as the Ohio River valley? Has your pal Jesus ever concerned himself at any time with a level playing field? (If so, the report didn’t make it into the bible.)
All ANYBODY - black, white, red or yellow - ever wants is an apology and some money. (And the freedom to eat whatever they want and never gain weight.) I never wandered in the desert for forty years; I was never buggered in a Turkish prison; I never owned a slave; I never was a slave - and neither were you. I don’t feel guilty about things that happened before I was born, and quite frankly probably wouldn’t have felt particularly guilty about it even had I been there: it was the way the world was, and most people - including Jesus - evidence little guilt over the normal. You cannot fairly apply a 21st century “enlightened” (if that’s what it is) consciousness to previous generations, and, rightly or wrongly: slavery goes back to the beginning of humanity. (Abraham, Jesus, and Muhammad among others, found nothing wrong with it.)
They can feel guilty if they wish, or you can: I don’t. I didn’t do it, and don’t see much point in apologizing for things I didn’t do.
And reparations? Well hell: I’m Irish, Scottish, and Welsh. Get your wallet out, England! Branches of my family have been getting oppressed, stepped on and killed by those Limey b******s for 900 years - this whole country’s only 232 years old. Whatever anybody plans to give in reparations here, I’ll take just three times that amount from the Queen for what I’m owed. What do you figure my chances are, Helen?
What do you figure my chances SHOULD be - as I am, after all, white. (So what’s really the issue: the oppression or the color of the oppressed?)
I don’t notice “correct racism” as an option on my ballot, either. If that’s code for “vote for Obama,” then no.
See, I am so free of racism I can look at him and mutter to myself: “there’s a stupid and dangerous man,” and not concern myself with anything else. Can you, I wonder? Are you such a great liberal that you’d vote for him if he were a white guy, and unable to think any better than he seems able to?
Or is it all about the fact that he’s a black guy, and no matter what comes out of his mouth you’re determined to atone (doubtless on my behalf) for some sin you never committed?
I think it’s all about that he’s a black guy. I think that precisely because I know you’re not stupid, Helen: I know you see the lies, contradicitons, etc., etc. he spews. And I just bet you wouldn’t ignore them if he were a white guy.
So is it fair to say that for you his color is the most important part? If so, then the racist in the room is you.
>>Laws must be enacted that take us in this direction.>>
What kind of laws do you see that would take us in the direction you think we should go?
Laws that redistribute wealth and make health care possible for all Americans. We might be surprised how well people could compete, if they had the same medical benefits as others. How about day care for mothers who work? As is. it cost almost as much as some people make to have care for their children. What’s the incentive to work harder, if you can’t get ahead. Help in buying reasonable housing. Everyone needs food, shelter and clothing for themselves and their children and a bit left over to be “American” with, that is “To keep up with the Jonses.” We have enough money, if we just learn to share.
Helen, I am curious: is “Losse” your real name? If so, it would suggest that you are white and of Germanic origin.
Frankly, Bookworm’s tribe has suffered greatly over the ages from the depredations by Germanic peoples. You should be ashamed!
I think that you should send her a nice fat check. What say you?
Once you do that…I am sure that Bookworm will forgive and bless you for it, perhaps putting a mark of proper atonement on your forehead.
As half-French, half-German in origin, I will send you a similar request for a check, but only for half the value, to atone for the German depredations against the French (and Jewish) sides of my family during WWII.
Naaaaah….tell you what…let’s just let bygones be bygones.
Peace!
>>Racism is prejudice against people of another race (or color) and the power to keep people of that race as an underclass.>>
How do you define an underclass? Poverty level?
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov24.html
is an interesting table. It shows that from 1987 to present, percentage of blacks below the poverty level have decreased. Whites have increased.
The question is what can government do to enable blacks to raise themselves economically. What responsibility do blacks themselves have?
Of course, then you have that other problem - defining poverty. Unless everybody is absolutely equal in assets and income, someone has less than someone else. If those who have less are considered de facto as below the “poverty” level, then the result is effectively defining someone into poverty. If you look at the conditions defined as “poverty level” 50 years ago and compared them with “poverty level” at this time, my guess is that there would be those considered at poverty level or below today who would not have been at that time.
>>Laws that redistribute wealth and make health care possible for all Americans. >>
So you think it just to steal from those who have earned their wealth in order to give it to those who have not?
Helen,
You told DQ that your definition of racism is closer to Obama’s than his. How closely aligned is Obama’s definition with Wright’s?
Or are we to assume that by denouncing Wright’s views in this speech on March 18, Obama doesn’t or never held the view that being white in Armerica makes you a racist.
Obama’s speech is right– it certainly doesn’t advance the cause of unity in America to hold to Wright’s position.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/hisownwords
“In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination - and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past - are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds - by investing in our schools and our communities; by enforcing our civil rights laws and ensuring fairness in our criminal justice system; by providing this generation with ladders of opportunity that were unavailable for previous generations. It requires all Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams; that investing in the health, welfare, and education of black and brown and white children will ultimately help all of America prosper. “- Barack Obama
What I’m concerned about is that Obama’s view of racism is closer to Wright’s than he is willing to admit.
The campaign hasn’t even begun, and Senator Obama is accusing white folks of whispering “he’s a black man” as a code word that is more powerful than any disagreement with his policies ever could be.
If he’s not willing to accept that our objection to him as President is his Marxist leanings– why should I accept that he was sincere in objecting to Wright’s own racist views? Or can Wright’s views be considered racist since he’s not white?
As a Christian we are told that true religion is performed by “taking care of widows and orphans.” But as a Christian you are aware that the central purpose of Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross was personal redemption– not social redemption.
I make this point from the book of Philemon– where Paul tells the slave Onesimus to return to owner and asks Philemon to accept him back as a brother and to not treat him harshly.
Please do not misunderstand what I am saying– Slavery is an abomination, and Christians are not absolved from practicing ‘true religion’, but the good news that Christians proclaim is that our sins have been forgiven, that our relationship, severed by our rebellion against God can be restored.
Do you honestly think though, that Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton are looking for an apology? IMHO they are profiteers trading in misplaced guilt, always demanding more than is given.
I started this reply before I read your reply. I think that definition is too simplistic. The genocide of the Tutsis by the Hutus was steeped in racism. The recent deaths of Kikyus and Luos in Kenya is seething racism. I think racism has its roots in tribalism, and it doesn’t take different colors or races to be racist.
Tiresias, I couldn’t help but laugh when you demanded reparations from the Brits, because it reminded me of my old line about the fact that my family, on both the Christian and non-Christian sides, has been kicked out of every country in which its ever lived, up until the family line hit Israel and America.
Going as far back as we know, on the Jewish side (my Dad and my Mom’s paternal grandparents), we’ve been kicked out of Spain, Russia, Poland, Hungary, Austria, Romania and Germany.
On the non-Jewish side, we were kicked out of France (the St. Bartholomew’s massacre), Germany (Napoleonic troops), Belgium (German troops both during WWI), and Holland (German troops during WWII).
And of course, my Mom was imprisoned by the Japanese — who never paid a penny in reparations.
My parents left Israel, where they were welcomed, on a voluntary basis to try to make it in America. We’re still here in America and, thank God, no one shows any signs of trying to kick us out.
So, by my reckoning, since the sins of the father apparently transcend many generations under the liberal standard of restitution, I am owned money and a home from the Spanish, Russians, Polish, Hungarians, Austrians, Romanians, Germans, French, Belgians and Dutch (with the last two responsible for failing to protect the goyish side of the family from the Germans). It would be nice if the Japanese would actually step up too, since it’s not a generational thing: they actually imprisoned my mother, starved and tortured her.
If all these culpable nations would just acknowledge their wrong-doing, I could be rich beyond my wildest dreams of avarice. But frankly, I’m simply grateful to live in America and have the opportunities I have.
Here’s a report with info on poverty level and health coverage. It looks to me like blacks aren’t doing as badly there are Hispanics. Of course, then you get into the legal and illegal thing. I suppose you think people shouldn’t have to pay to buy a ticket?
http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/p60-233.pdf
Pages 27 to about 34 are most relevant, I think. It only covers 2005 and 2006.
It’s amazing what Asians have managed. How do you account for that?
It also looks like the worst category is the household with a single female with children. If you look at the per individual level, hispanics are the lowest - probably because they are usually two parent, one income families, I’m guessing.
BrianE,
I can’t tell you what Obama thinks. But he distanced himself from Jeremiah Wright for political reasons. That is, to appeal to a larger group of voters. Jeremiah Wright said that. He said Obama does what he has to do as a politician, and I do what I do as a minister of God. Obama has no problem with Wright, except maybe annoyance. (That’s opinion. I haven’t spoken to either of them.) Jeremiah Wright is right on. he tells it like it is. And like many black preachers do. Wright is a prophet. God doesn’t have to damn America. It’s not too late. But we must act. And yes, I do think Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are looking for an apology and a change of direction that show the apology is real. This is what I think Obama thinks. I cannot speak for him, but I am doing my best to see what he is saying.
**
Danny,
Losse is my married name. His family came from Germany. My background is English. My Dad, an American soldier, married my mother in England during WWII. My mother is a naturalized citizen.
Do I still owe money?
**
Suek,
If you call paying taxes “stealing,” then yes.
Racism, poverty, and war fought together. Yes, poverty crosses racial lines. Hungry=hungry= need food. Solution: Food, regardless of race. In war, Dead=dead=war bad. Solution: Don’t shoot, regardless of race. Fight war and poverty along with racism. Or it won’t work. RACISM IS NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM ON EARTH!!!
**
Helen: “Laws that redistribute wealth …”
I don’t have figures, and I don’t know if anyone has ever calculated this, but I think I read somewhere if all the money owned by the “rich” were redistributed so that every man, woman, and child in the U.S. had the same amount of money, then everybody would be poor.
That may or may not be true, but what is true is that all people would be robbed of incentive. Incentive to invent anything, incentive to build anything, and even incentive to give anything.
Where would the next generation of technological advances come from? Where would jobs come from, if nobody had reason to create businesses? Where does Helen think wealth comes from? (Helen, feel free to answer.) Yes, everybody would have the same amount of money, but nobody would have the incentive to produce any goods for them to buy. And soon, nobody would have jobs, and we’d all just be sitting around waiting for the government to print more money. And it would be good for nothing except to light crack pipes - which would be in good supply because there will always be a black market for things that dull the pain of boredom and lack of purpose.
And the people who refuse to live that way - they’d be long gone.
That’s what I see as the logical extension of redistributing the wealth.
How’s that for a fable?
Yes, Helen, paying taxes to redistribute income is stealing. Solutions to the issues of race, poverty, war:
Race — Get past it. Ignore it. Strive for a color-blind society.
War — Do just enough to preserve our freedoms against internal and external attack. No more. No less.
Poverty — Give everyone an opportunity to get out of poverty. Make sure that everyone who works hard and does their best does, in fact, get out of poverty. Prosperity is not a right.
By the way, how do you define poverty? The “poor” in America are rich by most standards. The vast majority of the “poor” in America have a roof over their head, clothes on their backs, food in their bellies, not to mention internal plumbing, cars, televisions and cell phones.
America has always been the land of opportunity because here, more than anywhere else in the world at any time in history, hard work was rewarded and the poor did not need to remain poor. And they did it without nationally financed health care, day care and all the other goodies you’re so eager to take people’s money to hand out to everyone, whether they work hard or not.
I’m quite willing to help out those who work hard and try to achieve. I reject without qualification the “right” of anyone to use the power of government to steal the money I worked hard to earn and give it (in cash, health care or any other services) to someone who works less hard than I do.
>>If you call paying taxes “stealing,” then yes.>>
How do you justify this theft?
>>How about day care for mothers who work?>>
How about we offer a stipend for mothers who will stay home and care for their own children until the child enters school, while also offering them a continuation of their education (with child care during the time they are in classes) ? (offer to include mandatory birth control implants so that no more children are conceived during the period between when the first child is born and same child goes to school)
Oh yeah…also want to include in that equation mandatory classes for Mom on child development, nutrition and health information.
Helen,
Tell me how I could support a politician that distances himself from a position he believes– that all white folks are racist, to ‘appeal to a large group of voters’?
Isn’t that dishonest? I know, I know– that’s part of the definition of politician. But isn’t Senator Obama supposed to be a new kind of politician?
I gathered from the post that you believe he still holds the positions of Reverend Wright, even though he condemned those sentiments. What, did he have his fingers crossed?
I believe that you’re naive to think Sharpton and Jackson are anything but racial panderers.
Here is McCain’s stand on slavery:
“Republican presidential candidate John McCain said Wednesday the Senate should apologize for slavery and segregation, calling them “dark chapters in our history.” This is from an article last fall. I will add that he hasn’t signed on as a sponsor of a senate bill proposed by Senator Brownback, though.
I think we should apologize for the “Great Society” that trapped inner city African-Americans in a cycle of poverty and dependence and has compounded the problems facing this country while transferring hundreds of millions of dollars from the ‘wealthy’ to the poor– for what affect?
Maybe if we had transferred hundreds of trillions of dollars it would have worked.
In reality, we only appreciate what we have sacrificed for and we all need the pride that only comes from achievement– none of which was included in the massive welfare giveaway that has been going on for the last 40 years.
I do believe in helping people. But help that endures won’t be found in a welfare line. As a Christian you are probably aware of II Thess. 3:10: “If a man will not work, he shall not eat…”
I think too many liberals want to help people they pity.
The world has real problems of racism that I believe are more important than perceived injustices in America.
Rwanda– 500,000 to 1 million massacred, more displaced.
Sudan– millions displaced, estimates 200,000 killed.
Kenya– 1,000 killed, 250,000 driven from their homes just this year.
Zimbabwe– A country on the brink of extinction
Uganda– A country of children as AIDS has decimated the adult population
Liberia– 200,000 killed in two civil wars spanning two decades
Somalia– 500,000 casualties.
Congo civil war- 800,000 dead.
These are conflicts in the last two decades.
These are the relatives of African-Americans.
Helen,
And another thing we can disagree on!
As a former circle track driver, I moved on to cars the also turn right.
Check out the ALMS (American Lemans Series) on Speed TV. These are cars that you can actually buy. At least the GT1 and GT2 cars.
I lost interest in NASCAR when they went to restrictor plates and templates that basically made all cars similar– except when they wanted to “equalize” the different manufactures aerodynamics.
Come to think of it– that’s probably why you like NASCAR– an organization trying to make every car equal!
Brian
Brian…
Do you know what the handicapper’s job is on the race track(equestrian type)? His job is to evaluate each horse’s racing record including the weight they’ve carried and then assign a weight for the horse to carry for the particular race he’s handicapping. His goal is a race where all the horses cross the finish line in a dead heat.
You probably know how successful handicappers are!
So…what Helen wants is for the government to become the ultimate handicapper. Since it would probably be equally successful, the government just makes all right by taking away the extra goodies that some people have managed to acquire! There. All done. Everybody equal.
Yeah,
I think the story Bookworm was referencing by Vonnegut was “The Handicapper General”.
New cabinet post coming under an Obama administration.
And Helen, I admire your perseverance! It must feel like everyone is ganging up on you.
So Helen:
You’re all for “redistributing wealth?” Exactly whose wealth are you proposing to steal? That’s the problem with socialism of your kind…it’s actually REgressive. You propose to take the result of somebody’s productivity and redistribute it to somebody who is less productive….uhm, do you expect the producer of the wealth to continue to be productive so that the government can steal his excess and give it to his slacker neighbor? I think not…the producer would have no incentive to produce any more than meets his needs because he doesn’t want the excess confiscated, I mean redistributed, by the government.
As for racism in this country….institutional racism is gone. Laws HAVE been passed to counter it and it is no longer legal to deny housing or employment to someone just because they are black, gay or female
Sure, there are probably people still alive who don’t like blacks, and there are plenty of blacks who see all white folks as the enemy too, but of course, blacks can’t be racists, right? *eyeroll*
Perhaps you don’t understand that what you are doing is practicing the soft racism of low expectations. It’s you who feels that blacks are not whatever enough to be able to succeed in today’s world and feel like they shouldn’t be held to the same standards as the rest of us. YOU are the racist. Affirmative action is nothing more, in this day and age, than soft racism….blacks CAN’T compete with the rest of us, so we have to give ‘em a head start. Hogwash.
Barak Obama is a fraud. He’s a con-man, a flim flam artist and snake oil salesman par exellence, and he’s using the brickbat of white guilt to bludgeon the white liberals among us into voting for him based on nothing more than his skin tone. I’m sorry, but that’s not good enough for me. America is more than ready for a black president, a female president, or a gay president, but only if that person reflects American values. Obama is anything but. He’s a dyed in the wool Marxist student of Saul Alinsky who will push our country further into socialism than it’s ever been, and I will not vote for him under any circumstances, let alone to assuage my white guilt. Sorry but atoning for the sins of my father’s father is no reason to vote for anybody.
“It must feel like everyone is ganging up on you.”
Actually, I went out to run some errands, BrianE.
If I actually thought it were my job to convince everyone of my views, I’d be really down. But I don’t.
Would majoring in math give you a better sense of history?
Given that liberal arts history is about 2 plus 2 equals whatever I want it to equal, yes it would.
But the government (system) does have that power.
So your solution is to give that self-same government more power, and to the party that has historically fought to continue black slavery?
Not very logical of you.
Laws must be enacted that take us in this direction.
Not sure what more Jim Crow laws are going to do on that vein.
Laws that redistribute wealth and make health care possible for all Americans.
Putting blacks and whites into a cage and then calling it government health care is not anti-slavery.
We might be surprised how well people could compete, if they had the same medical benefits as others.
So a person will compete more for Job A using government healthcare than Job A using private healthcare?
So when everyone has Job A, what happens to the competition? There is no competition. Indeed, people will be surprised by how few people could compete after such an event.
If nobody suffers the disadvantages of having less money, meaning paying for day care, why would they want to compete harder to earn more money? This isn’t about competition, since the government cannot be competed with. That’s a monopoly you are creating there, helen.
So Duchess, You call me names. Bookworm and DQ call you on it. But then you say “Barak Obama is a fraud. He’s a con-man, a flim flam artist and snake oil salesman par exellence, . . . ”
Be like that.
Seems you don’t know how to discuss without name calling. I give up on you.
Y.,
“So a person will compete more for Job A using government healthcare than Job A using private healthcare?”
No, having health care period, And therefore seeomg a doctor when necessary, rather than self-medicating.
And does no one create for sheer joy? Does no one try to bake a more perfect apple pie than last time, just so one’s family can eat it? Does no one plant flowers for their beauty?
I am so glad I am me.
“If nobody suffers the disadvantages of having less money, meaning paying for day care, why would they want to compete harder to earn more money?”
television sets, CD players, DVD players, clothes, shoes (if a woman, more shoes), new carpet, paint the house, eat out more often, piano lessons, . . .
And does no one create for sheer joy?
That may be nice for individuals but it doesn’t work for national policy.
television sets, CD players, DVD players, clothes, shoes (if a woman, more shoes), new carpet, paint the house, eat out more often, piano lessons, . . .
And what will stop your government that you voted into to redistribute wealth from redistributing those things as well?
You don’t have any say at all once you elect an Obama administration.
It amazes me how the jump goes: Obama to socialism to communism to Oh my God Russia as though there could be no other path.
Redistribution of wealth goes: From insanely rich/poor to everyone poor. No in between. No insanely rich with four mansions to just one mid-sized mansion and 463 other families in small duplexes on same amount of money.
Redistribution doesn’t mean making everyone equal. It means giving everyone a chance. It might not affect you at all, Mike. Just people who are stupid-rich and those who don’t have enough to compete. As Martin Luther King Jr. said, “It is cruel to tell a man to pull himself up by his bootstraps, if he has no boots.”
Time to make home-made pizza.
Helen, what would you do about all the people who would decide they just don’t want to work? If all wealth is distributed so that everyone gets an equal share, why work at all? Would you create a requirement that all able bodied people have to work? (Sounds like slavery to me!) Would you jail them if they refused? Would you cut off their government paychecks and let their children go hungry (or go without their i-Phones - which, by the way, Steve Jobs would have no reason to make any more)? Or would you be content to just let everybody sit around, if that’s what they chose to do, watching NASCAR?
And by the way, I might be inclined to make a better apple pie as a treat for my family, but I sure as hell am not going to spend my life in a hot kitchen making apple pies for everybody without the incentive of making a profit (and by that I mean more of a profit than I’d make curled up on the couch watching Deal or No Deal).
“No insanely rich with four mansions to just one mid-sized mansion and 463 other families in small duplexes on same amount of money.”
And here are the questions you never answer: Who decides? Who decides how big that mid-sized mansion should be? And who bothers to create something that earns him enough money to build four mansions if he’s only going to get one mansion in a size to be determined by somebody else? And if you take 4/5 or 9/10 of what somebody earns, why isn’t that slavery?
These are the important questions, Helen.
Helen:
Barak Obama has put himself in the public crosshairs, running for the highest public office in the land, and if I want to refer to him as a con, that is STILL my right. The last time I checked, it’s ok for me to say what I please, as long as I don’t yell “fire” in a crowded public venue. It’s the liberals that are all about punishing hate speech (which, BTW is anything they don’t agree with), and because he is a public figure, he can’t even sue me for saying that he’s a fraud.
Suck it up, honey and in the words of the Messiah Obama to the women of his party…”get over it.”
You and your socialist fellow travelers and useful idiots are blindly following this…this…FRAUD down the merry rose strewn path to hell and you want the rest of us to go too. No thanks. If you want to go the way of the Third Reich, be my guest, but I’m no liberal lemming to throw myself off the cliff of socialism. Fortunately for the socialists among us, I believe that there are still enough sane adults who actually READ history books and have critical thinking skills enough to understand the wolf ticket this man is trying to sell the American public.
This is so not about race. It’s about class and about the pervasive sense of entitlement among the lower classes without the work ethic to match. Instead of shielding our children from reality, we need to teach them MORE about reality, history, mathematics and how to freaking THINK for themselves instead of just believing everything they see on video as the gospel truth. Of course, the Marxist playbook states that the dumber the population is, the more easily they are satisfied with the 21st century equivalent of the Roman “bread and circuses.” Just in case you don’t know what that is, the Romans would give a ration of free bread, and stage the games in the Circus Maximus to keep the “head count” (that would be the poor and unwashed masses) happy with their lot in life while the upper classes pretty much ran their lives. Sounds alot like what you’re advocating.
If you want to live in the land of butterflies and birds where everybody links arms and sings Kumbayah before they go to bed at night, go right ahead, but I, for one, still have my critical thinking skills that were developed before the liberals got a death grip on our schools and reduced education to indoctrination. I had a conversation with a 27 year old woman the other day who didn’t have a clue that Hitler was a socialist! She didn’t even understand what socialism means until I explained it to her and then she’s like “oh, well I don’t want THAT.” THIS is what passes for a public education these days? It’s no small wonder that the golden tongued liar that Obama is can fool these folk. They haven’t got a clue….
John McCain would do well to hammer the fact that Obama is a socialist, then tell the world exactly what socialism is, not the warmed over post cold war pap that the kids learn in what passes for our public educational system these days.
Helen, how would you respond to this example of “structural racism that pervades this institution [Columbia]“?
http://jammiewearingfool.blogspot.com/2008/06/columbia-fires-noose-professor.html
**************************
From the blog site:
“You may recall the very suspect noose hanging incident at Columbia University last fall revolving around Professor Madonna Constantine. From the very beginning the incident smelled incredibly fishy and the university stonewalled any real investigation from the outset, although that didn’t stop the PC mob from issuing demands before any real investigation could commence.
Though lo and behold, once the incident and other matters pertaining to Constantine were examined more thoroughly it became evident that Constantine herself was under suspicion, and one of the main reasons is she was enveloped in a very real plagiarism scandal.
Well, in what I must admit comes as a shocker, Constantine has been fired by Columbia, pending an appeal, naturally.”
….
“It bears noting her dismissal comes after an 18-month probe into the plagiarism charge, meaning they were ten months into the investigation when the noose incident conveniently occurred.
The letter, obtained by The New York Sun from a source at Teachers College, said the faculty advisory committee upheld an 18-month investigation by a Manhattan law firm, Hughes Hubbard & Reed, which found that Ms. Constantine had plagiarized two dozen times works of two former doctoral students and a former colleague.
“During the months since the College levied sanctions against her,” the letter said, “Professor Constantine continued to make accusations of plagiarism, including in at least one instance to the press, against those whose works she had plagiarized.”
When news of the plagiarism investigation became known in February, Ms. Constantine strenuously denied the charges. In addition to saying that it was she who the victim of plagiarism, Ms. Constantine said the school targeted her because of the “structural racism that pervades this institution.”
***********************
Charges of racism should not be flung lightly. Calling racism “structural” makes it impossible to remove and absolves individuals of the need to change their own behavior when warranted. All it does is breed paranoia and resentment. Playing the race card backfires on those it purports to help.
Duchess, I don’t think it’s a class thing anymore. I live in a richer than rich — and bluer than blue — community. It’s bizarre to me to see Obama bumperstickers on the back of Mercedes, Hummers and Beemers. These people are not voting their class interest. They’re all precisely like Obama — people who, through their education and social networking, have bought hook, line and sinker into socialist ideology without having any idea of the impact it will quickly have on them.
Believe me, these are not nascent martyrs. They love their privileged lifestyle. They also are generous enough to want to see more Americans enjoy the same lifestyle. Through America’s educational system, however, they’ve been sufficiently brainwashed that they believe that only the government can provide this life. They don’t see that they got as rich as they did because the government wasn’t in the way and that, once they give the government a head of steam, no one will be rich, privileged or even happy anymore.
All of this is old hat, rephrased in new terms. In the old Soviet Union when you went against the plan you were a “wrecker.” Now you’re a racist.
Lenin and Mao publicly decried the cult of personality, while pursuing it. Obama is above all that.
Redistribution doesn’t mean making everyone equal.
Given that you recognize, it actually makes things worse. For if redistribution was not meant to make everyone equal, how could you justify, then, making people still more different and unequal.
It’s one thing to change America’s current status from imperfect but good to perfect utopia. It’s quite another thing to change the hard work of generations solely because your personal whims have said that things will be better, but still not perfect, once the people you put into power has made a few changes to things.
Duchess, I don’t think it’s a class thing anymore.
It never was a class thing for if you look at historical revolutions and rebellions, they were almost always funded, instigated by, and manipulated by the rich for their own goals.
Revolutions and rebellions take money and you can’t get money from dirt poor farmers.
That’s jst a law of economics, and also the law of warfare.
Helen says, “Redistribution doesn’t mean making everyone equal. It means giving everyone a chance. It might not affect you at all, Mike. Just people who are stupid-rich and those who don’t have enough to compete.”
Well, there’s the problem right there. This is America. Everyone here has enough to compete already. America still rewards hard work and gives every person (okay, every able-bodied and able-minded person) a chance. Helen is trying to give people what they already have.
By the way, regarding day care, bearing children is not a right. If you can’t afford children, don’t have children.
DQ,
“Helen is trying to give people what they already have.”
How I wish that were so. Martin Luther King Jr. pointed out that “it is cruel to ask a man to pull himself up by his bootstraps, is he has no boots.” Comparing American poverty to the gut-wrenching deeper poverty of third world countries may give poor Americans a reason to be thankful for what do have, but it does not give them the necessary tools to compete in the market place in America. So it’s really a moot point.
“. . . regarding day care, bearing children is not a right. If you can’t afford children, don’t have children. ”
No, it’s a commandment given by God.
And one of the biggest arguments used (by some, not you) against gay marriage.
Poor people do not think like middle-class people, who feel one should be financially ready to have children. Poor people don’t have many material “blessings,” and now they can’t have sex either? How ’bout that “pursuit of happiness.” It sure doesn’t apply to poor people.
Poor people can have all the sex they want.
But who says that a 16 year old girl, who hasn’t even completed her education is ready to be a mother just because her womb and ovaries are ready? These are the people who remain in poverty because of their life choices early on. If a woman has 2 or 3 kids by the time she’s 20, her chances of raising herself out of poverty are severely reduced….if she completes her own education first and gets her life started properly, not only does she have a better chance of getting out of poverty, so too, do her children.
Also, what about the fathers? These days, young women are not concerned overmuch about having babies by men they would not consider marriage with under ordinary circumstances, because the Great Society of the 60s effectively removed lower class men as the de facto providers for their progeny and replaced them with a check, thus making these bad decisions possible…even probable.
But of course, Socialism isn’t about the poor. It’s about control.
Hi Helen:
Had to step out of this thread for a while, so I need to catch up.
Thank you for sharing your English origins with us. Instead of sending the reparations check to Bookworm (on behalf of your husband), I would instead like to recommend that you send it to all the “African” Americans (i.e., the real ones) who migrated here from former British colonial Africa, the West Indian blacks who migrated here (descendants of sugar plantation slaves), Irish Americans, and Indian Americans (both those from India and so-called “native” Americans). I think that you will find them quite a forgiving lot…especially if you send them a BIG check.
I, of course, being a man with a big heart, have forgiven anyone with English ancestry for any past wrongs, real or perceived, that they may have inflicted on my French, Jewish, German and Dutch family members. In fact, I openly acknowledge my debt to the Brits for the gifts the English have bestowed on my civilization and my country.
So, thank you, Helen…for what your English ancestors bestowed upon us. All else is forgiven.
Bookworm - I understand what you posted about the upper-income Lefties in Marin Countyr voting against their “class” interests. For what its worth, I view it as “cheap grace”. They only vote that way because they believe that they are immune. Raise taxes? Trust funds (Google “Kennedy” and “Fiji trust funds”). Raise gas emissions standards? Buy a Prius (never mind the farm worker who must unload his only vehicle). It only makes them feel better because they truly do not believe they will pay a price.
‘Systemic Racism’– I think the racial panderers have struck gold with this one. No facts necessary– just the fault of the ’system’.
I don’t consider myself a racist, but given the definition that seems to be creeping into society by Leftists, I’m a racist because I’m white and practice ’systemic racism’ by merely living in a society whose dominant feature is characterized by light skin.
The final solution to ’systemic racism’ can only occur when all power is turned over to dark skinned people.
I don’t know how many folks know the history of the African nation of Liberia. It was settled in the early 1800’s by a former slaves and free blacks, promoted by whites for various reasons.
Various ‘colonization societies’ settled the country, ‘bought’ land from the natives and in 1847 declared its independence. The indigenous people (the members of the 14 tribes of the land the new black ‘immigrants’ settled) were not given voting rights until 1947.
The ruling class, descendents of the original black immigrants, controlled the country until 1980, even though they were always a minority of the population, when a military coup toppled the government which led to two civil wars caused the deaths of several hundred thousand people and the complete collapse of the social order as tribalism became a dominant force.
So freed American slaves instituted the same hierarchical society including slavery once they had the ‘power’.
I’m not exactly sure how this fits into the topic of Senator Obama’s snide inference that racism will motivate his opponents, but it does demonstrate that confining the discussion to black-white is missing the real issues and preventing progress toward helping people that deserve a hand up.
Comparing American poverty to the gut-wrenching deeper poverty of third world countries may give poor Americans a reason to be thankful for what do have, but it does not give them the necessary tools to compete in the market place in America. So it’s really a moot point.
It’s only a moot point if you think people in Africa are poor because they have no tools to compete but people in America without tools to compete are just naturally doing better.
The underlying little detail is that people wouldn’t do better in one country as opposed to another, if they both lacked the “tools to compete”, unless either the rich was giving them natural advantages they hadn’t earned or they had been given more tools to compete than the ones in Africa.
So freed American slaves instituted the same hierarchical society including slavery once they had the ‘power’.
That is the usual historical record of any slave rebellion that won their freedom through violence. African Americans were saved from this fate because it was not they who predominantly killed the Southerners and won their freedom. It was by the orders of Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States of America, otherwise known as the Union, who through his generals, Sherman and Grant, killed a lot of Southerners and freed the slaves.
How much of the percentage of the gross life time earnings of freed slaves and their descendents should go into paying a gratitude tax unto the descendents or family members of Lincoln, Sherman, Grant, etc?
If you ask Helen, it’s zero, because Helen never studied the history of slave rebellions and uprisings. She never studied the actual history of how power is manipulated through violence. She never studied the real history of slavery in human history, just a little slice out of America’s past, and not very indepth at that. Thus it is very easy for her to see Obama and believe someone like him is going to make things right now.
The underlying little detail is that people wouldn’t do better in one country as opposed to another, if they both lacked the “tools to compete”, unless either the rich was giving them natural advantages they hadn’t earned or they had been given more tools to compete than the ones in Africa.
Inevitably, helen’s path ends up with a double standard. One standard says that America’s market requires one standard for “tools of competition” while Africa, composed of blacks, has a different, lower, standard. You just don’t expect Africa’s economy to be as good, thus their people don’t need as many tools as Americans, you see.
This kind of social, racial, gender based, and political identity strife and conflict is common to Leftist revolutionaries and branch offs of such an ideology as Saul Alinsky and Marxism.
It’s a commandment to have kids, is it? Based, I suppose, on “go forth and multiply.”
Yeah, well. It’s also a commandment from God to go forth and kill your kid, your kid’s spouse, your kid’s kids, your kid’s animals, and raze your kid’s town if said kid dares to decide to worship in a manner other than the one prescribed. (Deut. chaps. 13, 14, 15.) It’s OT, but it got left in the Christian version, so I assume it’s to be taken as seriously as anything else.
Forgive me for not taking such “commandments” terribly seriously.
Even poor people are bright enough to figure out how the condom dispenser in the bus station men’s room works. And they’re a long way from excessively pricey. (You can, in fact, get them for free [while you're getting your free meal] at the shelter.)
Adding a new citizen is a public, not a private act, because that new citizen, under normal circumstances, is going to be around annoying the neighbors long after you’ve shuffled off. Bearing children is less and less a “right,” and one of these day’s it’s going to require specific permission - because the one thing this planet is not running out of is people.
Very few women are capable of being good mothers; and very few men of being good fathers. Parenthood is a gift, as most parents find out too late and most children find out right away. Dogs, cats, pigs, birds, and mice know how to do it instinctively: people do not.
But it’s easy to separate reproduction from sex. And it doesn’t require any massive input from the inside of the skull, either. Are you saying that the poor can’t manage that fairly simple mental exercise?
If that’s truly the case, then “poverty” is far from the biggest problem.
We have a Liberia in America…can anybody say…Detroit?
Detroit’s AA mayor, one Kwame Kilpatrick, is now under indictment for public corruption, and most folks from Detroit will tell you he ran the place into the ground, giving as much public money away to his friends and cronies before he got caught.
Sounds rather like Zimbabwe on Lake Superior to me.
Ymarsakr,
What is remarkable is the parallels between the settlement of Liberia and America.
Liberia was settled and became an independant nation long before our Civil War.
The American Colonization Society sent settlers to the African Coast of Sierra Leone around 1820. The ACS was funded by whites for various motives- some racist, some noble.
Some of the immigrants were free blacks, some were freed slaves, and some were slaves whose freedom came at the cost of returning to Africa.
The black immigrants settled these lands by ‘buying’ the land– sometimes at the end of a gun, sometimes through legitimate negotiations.
But given the chance to establish an ‘ideal’ society free from bigotry and racism, the black immigrants adopted the same form of society they had left.
After the Civil war, some blacks immigrated to Liberia, but most chose to remain in the US.
Y.,
RE: “Helen never studied the history of slave rebellions and uprisings. She never studied the actual history of how power is manipulated through violence. She never studied the real history of slavery in human history, just a little slice out of America’s past, and not very indepth at that. Thus it is very easy for her to see Obama and believe someone like him is going to make things right now.”
Excuse me. But you are completely wrong.
I had a graduate level course in the history of slavery worldwide (Africa, Europe, North and South America, and Asia) in addition to a separate course in American slavery from black point of view. Both courses dealt with slave rebellion and violence. We read Frantz Fanon and primary sources by Toussaint L”Ouvertour, Gabriel Prosser, Denmark Vessey, Nat Turner, and John Brown.
I do know how violence has been used throughout history. I also know the history of nonviolent civil disobedience and the role it played in the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s, as well as Gandhi’s use of it in India.
The point I was making about Liberia is the parallels to American society, one white, one black.
They had the power to establish a society more in keeping with Helen’s ideals. They chose to perpetuate slavery, only with them as the Masters.
Racism and cruelty transcend skin color.
These are really matters to speak to the heart of mankind.
And Helen,
I liked some of your poetry.
“My ancestors are from England, yes, and my skin is light, hair straight. But I gave up beinng “white.” It’s far too great a burden to bear.”
So you and Bill Clinton are soul brothers?
I’m curious. Would you stipulate that blacks are just as culpable as whites for the stain of slavery– looking at it from a ‘we are all people of one world’ point of view?
BrianE,
I’m cool with Bill Clinton.
“Would you stipulate that blacks are just as culpable as whites for the stain of slavery– looking at it from a ‘we are all people of one world’ point of view?”
Please explain further. Not sure what you mean.
Slavery was not unique to the United States, was common in Africa and in fact is still practiced today. The source of slaves was black people (in a sense, blacks were the wholesalers and white shipowners were the retailers).
I think that’s what I mean.
I am nor more responsible for slavery than are descendents of Africans that enslaved other blacks. There remains no connection to make any apology meaningful other than in some sort of theoretical sense.
I am sorry for the way many black people were treated after slavery ended. But systemic racism? I need an example.
I also understand that you are sympathetic with the black liberation theology movement. Sorry, but this is slavery by other means, forever imprisoning its patrons in victimhood.
It’s marxism, not religion, and it will only lead to further alienation and ultimately disintegration of our society.
Helen,
I’m curious. Have you been around poor people? There is something very top down about your discussions, as if all the poor are the same and a one-size-fits-all government program can solve all their problems. That hasn’t been my experience, and I’ve known both black and white poor people. I have known very poor black women who have inspired me. Others have just drifted without trying to take responsibility for their own lives. Lumping people into victim groups just doesn’t cut it with me.
I had a graduate level course in the history of slavery worldwide
I’m completely wrong that you did not study the history of slavery and thus are more susceptible to believing that oppression can cure slavery in the form of Obama?
What you “studied” was white oppression, otherwise known as politically correct indoctrination, which is not the same thing as a history of slavery in any real sense of the term.
I do know how violence has been used throughout history.
No, you do not. For you still cling to this concept that it is right for you to use the power of the government to make an entire nation responsible for fabricated sins that you say individuals have been forgiven of, but not nations composed of many individuals.
If you do know what you claim to know, then you are simply a collaborator in the plan of people to use intimidation and violence to change the face of America so that they and their cronies can derive unequal benefit compared to the weaker gro