Why would someone do that?
Bookworm on Jun 23 2008 at 12:08 pm | Filed under: Uncategorized
We had dinner with a group of neighbors yesterday, which was a lot of fun. I have a new grill, which was pretty exciting. Growing up in the fog belt — with European parents, yet — I’d never grilled before and had only been to a few BBQs in my life. When my husband bought a very basic gas grill a few years ago (it was his first too), it set my standards for grilling. I therefore assumed that it was normal (a) not to have any control over the temperature and (b) for flames constantly to shoot out around the food from dripping grease. When friends came over the other night to grill and saw what was happening, they assured me this was not normal. Armed with this information, my husband went out yesterday and got me a new grill so, last night, a group of us enjoyed perfect burgers.
The one thing that I didn’t like about the evening was one couple. The husband kept putting the wife down. Whenever she said something, he’d tell her she was wrong. He criticized her looks in front of everybody. He told mean little stories about her. She didn’t fight back, whether because she didn’t notice, didn’t care, or didn’t want to make others uncomfortable. No one knew what to do. When possible, one or the other of us would spring politely to her defense — “Oh, I really like your hair that way.” “No, I’d have to agree; that’s been experience too.” No one, of course, wants to get involved in someone else’s marital spat.
My question, though, which repeats the post title, is why would someone do that? I don’t think anyone looked at the woman and thought that she was stupid, ugly or ineffectual. I think most of the guests looked at the husband, though, and wondered why he was picking on his wife in public. Do any of you know what motivates that kind of behavior? Aside from being ill-mannered, it seemed kind of pointless.
Fortunately, most of the neighbors aren’t like that, with their public relationships ranging from ooky-pooky cute, to casual affection.
Speaking of the lovey-dovey couples, here’s a great Irving Berlin tune, sung fairly competently by a singer I’ve never heard of. I prefer the Judy Garland-Fred Astaire version (from Easter Parade), but can’t find a copy to play for you:
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22 Responses to “Why would someone do that?”
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Maybe it’s a California thing - you’ve got my “reasons to not ever, ever, ever live there” count well up into the triple digits!
“No one knew what to do.” Really? Plain English usually works fairly well, and has often been known to work wonders.
One of the husbands takes the guy off into a corner and quietly says something along the lines of: “Harry, you have successfully hammered home the point that you are a classless tick - but the rest of us are sick of it. You’re making everybody uncomfortable. It’s enough: knock it off, or go home.”
This generally works. And, amazingly enough, you usually stay friends with ol’ Harry - if you have any interest in doing so.
Hello Bookworm,
In my experience, it has everything to do with power and dominance. I’ve seen men do this to their women, and women do this to their men. What’s more it is a very common narcissistic trait, which is to tear someone down to build themselves up.
I guess you really do live in an area frozen into the 1950’s or so. This behavior is ubiquitous. I encounter it in Los Angeles everywhere I go and I encountered it when I lived in Houston. In fact, I’ve observed this sort of behavior all my life, and when I was younger, I was a practitioner.
Belittling jokes are not innocuous. The only difference between conducting put-down jokes at someone else’s expense and your description of the verbal sadism of this man is only a difference in degree.
Turn on any TV show. Watch any modern movie. Sit at any restaurant. You will find this kind of thing virtually everywhere.
This is actually one of the more depressing things about modern social interaction…
It is your classic case of malignant narcissism, Book, where a person only gets a senes of identity and approval by destroying another’s.
They character assassinate on demand and on habit. They will tell lies about you and wait for you to be shocked, and then act smooth and convincing to the public.
Yet the suspense is killin’ me, BW — what kind/brand of grill did you get? I’ve found that those which use the lava rock –or similar– are certainly prone to flare-ups, while those that employ those upside-down “V” porcelain-coated steel bars are fairly fire-free [gotta keep them cleaned-off]. I think Weber may have been the first to use them [they call them "flavorizer bars"]. FYI, I’m getting ready to do asparagus on the grill for the first time in a few minutes. [great in regular oven on a cookie sheet and drizzled with basil-flavored olive oil].
Children learn what they see. I think it is likely this fellow learned to put down women from his father. He thinks he is being funny, witty, manly — whatever.
As to why the little lady puts up with, well chances are her mom did, too.
Interesting comments all.
Tiresias: This is a neighborhood where never is heard a discouraging word. People are perpetually civil to each other — at least if they’re not married to each other. Our kids live at each other’s houses, our carpools keep everyone moving, and we socialize on weekends. I don’t think we could stand the stress of out-and-out confrontation!
Thomas and Y: I do think this sounds like narcissistic behavior. It’s kind of sad that someone can build himself up only by putting others down. And since so many of those comments are accompanied by a hang-dog grin (”hey, it’s only a joke”), it makes any confrontation difficult.
Larry: It’s a Weber — a fairly small one (since I usually grill just for the family), but it’s got a lovely starter, beautiful control gauges, and a thermometer. Also, courtest of Kim Priestap, who blogs at Up North Mommy and Wizbang, I am the proud owner of loads of brand new McCormick Grill Mate spices. There is a possibility that my family will eat well this summer.
Ellie2: I’ve never seen his Dad and Mom interact, so I couldn’t say. Certainly children do model on their parents, especially boys on their daddies.
I know one woman whose marriage was destroyed mainly by this kind of behavior on her husband’s part. But from what I observe, it’s more common these days for the wife to put down the husband. Many women talk to their husbands, and talk OF their husbands, with barely concealed contempt.
A symptom of a civilization wracked by internal parasites and destroyers.
One of my favorite memories is a conversation at a cocktail party about 20 years ago in suburban New Jersey. A husband (and wealthy Wall Streeter) was complaining that his wife didn’t do the laundry often enough for him to find clean socks–this said apparently to impress the assembled couples standing around. I will never forget the look on his face when I asked him why he didn’t own more socks.
http://narc-attack.blogspot.com/2008/04/malignant-narcissists-shock-tactics.html
As always, Kathy writes the definite user’s guide on how to defend and recognize narcissism, which you should read.
Most men would be ashamed of having an inferior wife that can’t do certain things, or they would be angry, or they would be envious of another woman that could do these things.
Normal husbands do not get off and find it funny by making and airing the inferior status of their wives. That is not normal, Book, and it never will be normal.
A malignant narcissist finds it funny when the animal in the trap starts squirming and dying.
Whenever she said something, he’d tell her she was wrong. He criticized her looks in front of everybody.
Now imagine what kind of perversity must a man have to criticize one’s wife concerning her appearance in public.
It’s one thing to tell her to change her air or makeup before going out, since that might make you look bad, but why would it make you look better by publicly humiliating your significant other, and thus humiliating yourself in the bargain? Because a narcissist does not the natural reaction a normal person does. What humiliates, enthralls. What appeases, enrages.
Classical Palestinian behavior, Book.
If it’s a neighborhood kind of a deal, and everybody spends time in each other’s houses, carpools, etc., then presumptively you know how this bird behaves, and knew how even before he showed up at your new grill. Which leaves you all kind of limited in your right to complain. Whatever you will tolerate you’ll end up having to tolerate.
So a non-confrontational way to deal with it is simply to disinvite.
There are elements of narcissism here; it’s not a classical presentation and you can’t diagnose on a second-hand report of a single incident, but we’ll allow some elements.
I must know a lot of plain speaking people. None of them - including me - would listen to it more than about once. Most of them in the stud-book, all thoroughly educated, no shortage of resources - but somehow it’s a quite plain-spoken neighborhood. (Sort of in the Colony, or Union, Churchill-ish vein: “I shall be sober tomorrow, Madam, but you will still be ugly.”)
Nobody favors confrontation - but it does lead to resolution. And it usually doesn’t even hurt a friendship, if it’s a genuine one. I don’t think I know anybody who’d be insulted by hearing: “what’s up your *** this evening, Bozo?” - and following from that would be a conversation in the course of which it’s quite possible some valuable information would be disseminated,and a problem might be on its way to being solved.
Or maybe not. But either way you’ll know what you’re dealing with.
And of course, you really do have to wonder why a man would such an “inferior” woman, don’t you?
“would marry”….
Having an audience for the put-down - cocktail party, family gathering - makes it all the more effective, than a on-on-one at home, with only the dog listening.
When vacationing at home - from California - many years ago, I went with my Folks and my brother to have dinner at my sister’s with her husband. Throughout the meal he put her down at almost every turn. I would watch her, and could see she was uncomfortable, but she didn’t fight back. After dinner, we played cards and I used my sarcastic tongue - something I watch carefully when with family - to slice Sis’s Hubby into small bits. It’s not quite passive-aggressive, but I’ve learned to be very effective without being overtly vicious. I remember my brother chuckling a lot.
After we left, on the drive back, my Mother was visibly upset, and my Step-Father mentioned that this was the norm with my Sis and her Hubby. I couldn’t understand. My Sis had never been the shy, retiring type. So a few days later, from the safety of California, I called Sis and talked about it with her. No, she wasn’t happy, no, she didn’t like being treated like that, no, it wasn’t only when there were guests around. So I told her maybe it was time to get out. I said she should talk to Mom. Why? Because our step-father had divorced his first wife - a nasty, unbalanced Shrew - and could help should Sis decide to … cut the knot.
Sis was in tears, but promised to talk about things with Mom.
I think Mom finally told her exactly how she felt about Sis’s Hubby. Sis got a divorce. And never regretted it.
Nobody should treat another like that. Nobody. If you don’t like somebody, don’t talk to them. Or don’t be with them. Or get a divorce. But never do that to your supposed ‘Love’ in front of others or alone. It’s wrong. And twisted!
Not to criticise your sister…but didn’t she know? I mean, before she married him? Just as I asked “why would he marry such an “inferior” woman, I have to wonder how the berated party could enter into marriage not knowing about such a flaw. I don’t understand why they’d marry someone who did this. Did the critical person just criticise other people and the criticised person just never though s/he’d turn on _them_? Maybe a misunderstanding of wit? Anybody with a guess?
Narcissists and malignant narcissists are great at using guilt and various other ploys to keep their victims in a box, helpless to get out.
I don’t understand why they’d marry someone who did this.
Narcissists act kindly and compassionate in the beginning and thus gets the lure up. Once you fall into the trap, then they show their true colors.
Unless you are a predator yourself, there is no way to “know” the tactics of a predator before the predator demonstrates those tactics.
http://narc-attack.blogspot.com/
Has everything anyone would ever need to know about narcissism. If for some reason they need more, they can search for Neo-Neocon’s and Dr. Sanity’s posts on this subject as psychologists.
“Do any of you know what motivates that kind of behavior? Aside from being ill-mannered, it seemed kind of pointless.”
What motivates any bully to continually attack the chosen victim? And this particular pair is married, which makes this bullying a 24-7-365 occurrence. What misery! I wonder if the woman has severe self-image problems. I could never accept someone treating me so disparagingly in public. It might happen once; it would never happen again.
I suppose I have an old-fashioned sense of civility that causes me to say also that this kind of viciousness is actually an attack on EVERYONE at the social gathering. It’s disrespectful to ruin everyone’s enjoyment of a social event. Perhaps this guy - this abuser - simply can’t see that his behavior is ruinous.
I wouldn’t ignore the constant verbal assault. At a social gathering, it’s not a private matter. I think it’s entirely appropriate to call attention to it as ruinous to the gathering, and as politely as possible indicate that you expect it to stop. (But then again, I bet I’m simply very old-fashioned on this one.)
It’s about power and control. Public humiliation is one characteristic which often occurs in abusive relationships, whether emotionally or physically abusive.
Obviously you don’t know what goes on behind closed doors in any relationship, but here’s a safe bet; if it happens in public, it happens in private, and worse. I’d be concerned that your friend/ neighbor might be a victim of domestic violence. There are a lot of excellent books available on emotionally abusive relationships and domestic violence. Sometimes seeing your own experience in print can be eye-opening.
suek: Living across the Continent from the family when my Sis was wooed and wed, I knew very little about Hubby. Sis insisted he reminded her of Dad. Dad had died in 1973. No one in the family saw any resemblance, either physical or otherwise, so I think we all figured she was looking for a reason to grab someone who would propose to her. In fact the only resemblance I ever found was his speaking voice. And it didn’t sound like Dad at all, but like my Mom’s brother.
Odd. When Sis found another man to fall for, she again insisted he reminded her of Dad. Again, no one else ever has seen it. And though she remains married to Hubby 2, the consensus in the family is he’s very odd. On the plus side he’s been a good provider, they’ve reared three children, and we don’t see him very often.
I think he’s as uncomfortable with the family as we’ve been with him. But to my knowledge he’s never put her down.
And I remain a bachelor. What does that say, eh?