Barack Obama — baby killer *UPDATED*
Bookworm on Aug 22 2008 at 8:52 am | Filed under: Abortion, Barack Obama
I’ve long retained a vague memory that the Jewish approach to abortion is remarkably close to the view I’ve developed over the years. This is purely coincidental, because I’m not a religious Jew. I’d like to quote at some length from an excellent article on the subject, before I swing into attack mode regarding Barack Obama (footnotes omitted, emphasis added):
To gain a clear understanding of when abortion is permitted (or even required) and when it is forbidden requires an appreciation of certain nuances of halacha (Jewish law) which govern the status of the fetus.
The easiest way to conceptualize a fetus in halacha is to imagine it as a full-fledged human being — but not quite. In most circumstances, the fetus is treated like any other “person.” Generally, one may not deliberately harm a fetus. But while it would seem obvious that Judaism holds accountable one who purposefully causes a woman to miscarry, sanctions are even placed upon one who strikes a pregnant woman causing an unintentional miscarriage. That is not to say that all rabbinical authorities consider abortion to be murder. The fact that the Torah requires a monetary payment for causing a miscarriage is interpreted by some Rabbis to indicate that abortion is not a capital crime and by others as merely indicating that one is not executed for performing an abortion, even though it is a type of murder. There is even disagreement regarding whether the prohibition of abortion is Biblical or Rabbinic. Nevertheless, it is universally agreed that the fetus will become a full-fledged human being and there must be a very compelling reason to allow for abortion.
As a general rule, abortion in Judaism is permitted only if there is a direct threat to the life of the mother by carrying the fetus to term or through the act of childbirth. In such a circumstance, the baby is considered tantamount to a rodef, a pursuer after the mother with the intent to kill her. Nevertheless, as explained in the Mishna, if it would be possible to save the mother by maiming the fetus, such as by amputating a limb, abortion would be forbidden. Despite the classification of the fetus as a pursuer, once the baby’s head or most of its body has been delivered, the baby’s life is considered equal to the mother’s, and we may not choose one life over another, because it is considered as though they are both pursuing each other.
It is important to point out that the reason that the life of the fetus is subordinate to the mother is because the fetus is the cause of the mother’s life-threatening condition, whether directly (e.g. due to toxemia, placenta previa, or breach position) or indirectly (e.g. exacerbation of underlying diabetes, kidney disease, or hypertension). A fetus may not be aborted to save the life of any other person whose life is not directly threatened by the fetus, such as use of fetal organs for transplant.
Trust the rabbis to come up with a humane balance between the interests of the mother and the child. Because my self-developed view so closely harmonizes with the rabbinical view, you can appreciate why I do not believe that Obama, during the 2002 live abortion debate in Illinois staked out a pro-Choice position. Instead, I think he staked out a murderer’s position. You see, I agree with the rabbis — once that child emerges alive, it’s alive. End of story.
With that in mind, please consider Obama’s testimony during the April 2002 Born-Alive proceedings, during which he made it very clear that he thought it would “inconvenience” both doctor and mother if they actually had to be troubled with the burden of ensuring that a living being received humane treatment (all emphasis mine):
OBAMA: Yeah. Just along the same lines. Obviously, this is an issue that we’ve debated extensively both in committee an on the floor so I — you know, I don’t want to belabor it. But I did want to point out, as I understood it, during the course of the discussion in committee, one of the things that we were concerned about, or at least I expressed some concern about, was what impact this would have with respect to the relationship between the doctor and the patient and what liabilities the doctor might have in this situation. So, can you just describe for me, under this legislation, what’s going to be required for a doctor to meet the requirements you’ve set forth?
SENATOR O’MALLEY: First of all, there is established, under this legislation, that a child born under such circumstances would receive all reasonable measures consistent with good medical practice, and that’s as defined, of course, by the … practice of medicine in the community where this would occur. It also requires, in two instances, that … an attending physician be brought in to assist and advise with respect to the issue of viability and, in particular, where … there’s a suspicion on behalf of the physician that the child … may be [viable,] … the attending physician would make that determination as to whether that would be the case…. The other one is where the child is actually born alive … in which case, then, the physician would call as soon as practically possible for a second physician to come in and determine the viability.
SENATOR OBAMA: So — and again, I’m — I’m not going to prolong this, but I just want to be clear because I think this was the source of the objections of the Medical Society. As I understand it, this puts the burden on the attending physician who has determined, since they were performing this procedure, that, in fact, this is a nonviable fetus; that if that fetus, or child — however way you want to describe it — is now outside the mother’s womb and the doctor continues to think that it’s nonviable but there’s, let’s say, movement or some indication that, in fact, they’re not just coming out limp and dead, that, in fact, they would then have to call a second physician to monitor and check off and make sure that this is not a live child that could be saved. Is that correct?
SENATOR O’MALLEY: In the first instance, obviously the physician that is performing the procedure would make the determination. The second situation is where the child actually is born and is alive, and then there’s an assessment — an independent assessment of viability by … another physician at the soonest practical … time.
SENATOR OBAMA: Let me just go to the bill, very quickly. Essentially, I think as — as this emerged during debate and during committee, the only plausible rationale, to my mind, for this legislation would be if you had a suspicion that a doctor, the attending physician, who has made an assessment that this is a nonviable fetus and that, let’s say for the purpose of the mother’s health, is being — that — that — labor is being induced, that that physician (a) is going to make the wrong assessment and (b) if the physician discovered, after the labor had been induced, that, in fact, he made an error, or she made an error, and, in fact, that this was not a nonviable fetus but, in fact, a live child, that that physician, of his own accord or her own accord, would not try to exercise the sort of medical measures and practices that would be involved in saving that child.
Now, it — if you think there are possibilities that doctors would not do that, then maybe this bill makes sense, but I — I suspect and my impression is, is that the Medical Society suspects as well that doctors feel that they would be under that obligation, that they would already be making these determinations and that, essentially, adding a — an additional doctor who then has to be called in an emergency situation to come in and make these assessments is really designed simply to burden the original decision of the woman and the physician to induce labor and perform an abortion. Now, if that’s the case — and — and I know that some of us feel very strongly one way or another on that issue — that’s fine, but I think it’s important to understand that this issue ultimately is about abortion and not live births. Because if these are children who are being born alive, I, at least, have confidence that a doctor who is in that room is going to make sure that they’re looked after.
Did you get all that? “Fetus, or child — however way you want to describe it.” “They’re not just coming out limp and dead.” “Adding a — an additional doctor who then has to be called in an emergency situation to come in and make these assessments is really designed simply to burden the original decision of the woman and the physician.” Those all speak to the man’s ugly mind.
In addition to being an ugly mind, it’s also a dishonest one: “It’s important to understand that this issue ultimately is about abortion and not live births.” In fact, the whole point of the bill was about live births. The legislative scenario was that the legal abortion had ended — badly — and the live birth had begun. This is not a man who is committed to life or hope. This is a man deeply committed to political ideology, come Hell, high water, or murder.
By the way, Andrew McCarthy has written another dead-on article about Obama’s whole role in this affair (that’s where I found the above transcript material), which you can read here.
One other thing: Is it just me, or is The One extremely incoherent? Those who know me personally know that I speak in fully rounded paragraphs. There’s not too much difference between my written and spoken word. Obama, however, reminds me of my worst college professors, with his garbled, inarticulate, illogical, disordered phrasing. Let me repeat one, just one, of his sentences, and you tell me if these are the words of an orator or an idiot:
Essentially, I think as — as this emerged during debate and during committee, the only plausible rationale, to my mind, for this legislation would be if you had a suspicion that a doctor, the attending physician, who has made an assessment that this is a nonviable fetus and that, let’s say for the purpose of the mother’s health, is being — that — that — labor is being induced, that that physician (a) is going to make the wrong assessment and (b) if the physician discovered, after the labor had been induced, that, in fact, he made an error, or she made an error, and, in fact, that this was not a nonviable fetus but, in fact, a live child, that that physician, of his own accord or her own accord, would not try to exercise the sort of medical measures and practices that would be involved in saving that child.
You need a computer by your side to parse that gibberish.
UPDATE: Kathleen Parker offers a good summary of the hugely complicated process the Born Alive bill proved to be in Illinois. Some advance that complicated, delicate history as a defense of Obama’s position — he was just trying to get it right. His statements above, though, indicate that, while he may then have been — and may now be — trying to hide behind the notion of “getting it right,” his actual concerns transcended ordinary humanity and common decency.
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And then there’s this statement: “Because if these are children who are being born alive, I, at least, have confidence that a doctor who is in that room is going to make sure that they’re looked after.”- Obama
I get that you want John McCain to win the presidency are certain that Obama is a baby-killing horrible human being. And I agree that abortion is a travesty. Believing that people answer to God for their sins is not a popular one, but it’s something I agree with.
This is a wedge issue and it provides the base with plenty of red meat, but when you gloss over some statements, while highlighting others, are you only convincing people who already agree with you?
I’m an Independent , but these kinds of tactics turn me off, and seem to appeal to those who’ve already made up their minds. (Although, on the other hand, Karl Rove made a career out of winning elections via playing to people’s emotions, so what do I know? But then then again, I like to look beneath the hood, and Rove’s whisper campaign against John Mcain’s “Black Baby” in 2000 made me less fond of Mr. Bush and more fond of Senator McCain).
“Is it just me, or is The One extremely incoherent? ” — Bookworm Room
After 8 years of Bush? Are you serious?
I understand that want your team to win. But, Geeze Louise. . .
>>“Because if these are children who are being born alive, I, at least, have confidence that a doctor who is in that room is going to make sure that they’re looked after.”>>
And I’m just positive that every person who has a driver’s license will stop at a red light. So we don’t need laws to state the obvious.
So he has confidence… but he’s unwilling to have a state law that makes it against the law for a doctor _not_ to do so? even when he’s heard testimony that babies who are still living are being disposed with the soiled linen?
>>Rove’s whisper campaign against John Mcain’s “Black Baby” in 2000 made me less fond of Mr. Bush and more fond of Senator McCain).>>
Better do a google on that one - didn’t happen.
Just to remind you, Ozzie, the legislation was at issue because doctors were not making sure the baby was looked after. Instead, the babies were being taken to dirty linen rooms and left to die. So it was either stupid or dishonest for Obama to make that statement.
As for Obama’s incoherence, I wouldn’t make reference to it were it not for the fact that he’s been sold as the great orator — something no one has ever claimed on Bush’s behalf. If you’re going to be a great orator, then be one, not some bumbling, incoherent, unintelligible speaker.
Rove’s whisper campaign against John Mcain’s “Black Baby” in 2000 made me less fond of Mr. Bush and more fond of Senator McCain).>> me
Better do a google on that one - didn’t happen. - suek
Says who? Karl Rove?
I googled “Black Baby, 2000, McCain” and “Whisper Campaign” and if it isnt true, some high profile magazines should be sued for liable. The 2000 South Carolina Whisper “Push-polling” Campaign is still being reported on, especially now that Karl Rove is working for John MCain.
“Just to remind you, Ozzie, the legislation was at issue because doctors were not making sure the baby was looked after. Instead, the babies were being taken to dirty linen rooms and left to die.” - - Based on Jill Stanek’s testimony? The same women who thinks Michael J. Fox is a cannibal? Have others come forth to testify that this is true?
Sorry, Bookworm. I still remember the phony “Babies Being Tossed out of Incubators” stroy that was used to sell the first Gulf War to Congress.
ttp://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html
In case you aren’t aware, here’s the gist re: the “Babies in Incubators” story:
“When contemplating war, beware of babies in incubators
by Tom Regan | csmonitor.com
More than 10 years later, I can still recall my brother Sean’s face. It was bright red. Furious. Not one given to fits of temper, Sean was in an uproar. He was a father, and he had just heard that Iraqi soldiers had taken scores of babies out of incubators in Kuwait City and left them to die. . . .The news of the slaughter had come at a key moment in the deliberations about whether the US would invade Iraq. Those who watched the non-stop debates on TV saw that many of those who had previously wavered on the issue had been turned into warriors by this shocking incident.
Too bad it never happened. The babies in the incubator story is a classic example of how easy it is for the public and legislators to be mislead during moments of high tension. It’s also a vivid example of how the media can be manipulated if we do not keep our guards up.. .
The key moment occurred on October 10, when a young woman named Nayirah appeared in front of a congressional committee. She told the committee, “I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns, and go into the room where 15 babies were in incubators. They took the babies out of the incubators, took the incubators and left the babies on the cold floor to die.”
Hill & Knowlton (The PR firm hired to sell the war) immediately faxed details of her speech to newsrooms across the country, according to CBC’s Fifth Estate’s documentary. The effect was electric. The babies in incubator stories became a lead item in newspapers, and on radio and TV all over the US.
It is interesting that no one – not the congressmen in the hearing, or any journalist present – bothered to find out the identity of the young woman. She was the daughter of Kuwait’s ambassador to the United States, and actually hadn’t seen the “atrocities” she described take place.. . .”
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html
Ozzie,
Re Stanek and Michael J. Fox: That would be called poetic license. Stanek is making the point — and one with which a lot of people agree — that using embryonic stem cells from dead fetuses in order to improve your own health is a moral failing. Please don’t write things so that people believe that Stanek is some National Enquirier nutso going around alleging that Fox is dining regularly and ear stew and roasted eyeballs.
Please don’t write things so that people believe that Stanek is some National Enquirier nutso going around alleging that Fox is dining regularly and ear stew and roasted eyeballs.- Bookworm
I read the accompanying article, which I first learned about on Andrew Sullivan, (who admittedly cited it to point out what an extremist she is) and, through a pro-lifer himself, Sullivan was right: She seems like an extremist.
I dont trust ideologues to tell the truth.
It’s obvious you believe her story, and that you believe that Obama is a heartless baby killer.
Book, you say “I am not a religious Jew.” I say that’s an oxymoron.
And I pray that while you now acknowledge only your heritage, you will one day find the faith of your fathers.
Dear Sirs,
I have another take on the matter. Ms. Stanek was a nurse at Christ Hospital in Chicago. Christ Hospital is owned and operated by a foundation formed by The Lutheran Church and The United Churches of Christ. Mr. Obama’s (and Mr. Wright’s) church is a member of OCOC.
Note that Mr. Obama’s statement is that his main concern is about the liability of doctors. Could he really mean he was concerned about the hospital’s liability?
Not morally horrid. Just carrying water for the good Reverend.
Regards,
Roy
I had to catch up on what Book and Ozzie are discussing.
Here’s what I found:
1. Jill Stanek’s original testimony to Congress in 2000 along with another nurse
http://www.priestsforlife.org/testimony/stanekbakercongress.htm
2. Jill Stanek’s testimony to Congress in 2001
http://www.geocities.com/stgeoprolife/advocate/arch071201b.htm
3. Jill Stanek’s bio page: she is a nurse, Christian, and World Daily Net reporter
http://www.jillstanek.com/bio.html
4. Jill Stanek’s “Michael J. Fox is a high-tech cannibal article
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41010
5. Some Andrew Sullivan blogging posts
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/03/obama-and-abort.html
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/03/obama-and-abo-1.html
My summation:
Best as I can tell, Mrs. Stanek was a registered nurse and Christian who was horrified at the practice of induced live abortion at her hospital. She observed several incidents; other nurses at the same hospital observed other incidents, and often were deeply troubled. Mrs. Stanek decided to fight the practice, and she testified to Congress. She was later fired from the hospital, presumably for not being a “part of the team”. She recently became a WND columnist.
She believes that life begins at conception and will allow for absolutely no exceptions to abortion. (As far as I can tell.) She believes that if you abort a fetus, and harvest its stem cells, and - upon a discovery where those cells can effect a cure - if you inject those cells into your body, you are committing an act of high tech cannibalism, in her words.
Those last words are quite strong, and her words are often strong. She’s committed to an absolute ban on all abortion. Need we call her various kinds of names beyond that?
Andrew Sullivan’s blog posts indicate that he finds Obama’s hard-line pro-life position at odds with his usual nuanced approach to every other issue.
Note that Mr. Obama’s statement is that his main concern is about the liability of doctors. Could he really mean he was concerned about the hospital’s liability?- roy
The hospital reportedly took these allegations VERY seriously, though Stanek was caught lying about that, as well. And the Illinois Department of Health investigated Stanek’s claims and concluded ‘The allegation that infants were allowed to expire in a utility room could not be substantiated (and) all staff interviewed denied that any infant was ever left alone.’ ”
And yes, from her militant anti-contraception stance http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/03/faithful_condom.html to condoning domestic violence towards women who get abortions http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54486 to referring to Barbara Bush as being “pro-abort,” http://www.wnd.com/index.php/index.php?pageId=44403, Stanek is pretty extreme. Why do people blindly believe her?
And then there’s this:
Eric Zorn of the Chicago Tribune deserves a Pulitzer Prize for this: Jill Stanek told him she was mistaken in her blog posts this earlier year about what Sen. Obama did in the Illinois Legislature on the “Born-Alive Infant Protection Act.”
Jill Stanek’s direct quote in the Tribune was “A mistake.”
I wrote Eric Zorn to make sure I was reading his article correctly and he confirms, she is acknowledging her mistake.
I respect Jill for that. But the mistake has created a firestorm in the anti-choice blogosphere, and may still be the subject of a major 527 campaign trying to distort Obama’s record. It is hard to put the facts back in perspective when the lies have spread so far, and once they are on TV, only a TV rebuttal can hope to effectively counter those lies.
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/08/21/jill-stanek-admits-mistake-chicago-tribune-obama-abortion-record
———————————–
Dear Ozzie,
I am sure that you are factually correct. However, this was a political situation at the time. Ms. Stanek’s comments did not come until after the actions in the Illinois Senate. It was uncharacteristic of Mr. Obama to take strong stands on much of anything during his terms in the Senate. This seems an anomalous situation and there is, to my mind, a plausible explanation - somebody sent him.
I grew up in Boston and worked for many years for a labor union in New York City. I am well familiar with the workings of one party cities. Doesn’t bother me. It’s the way it is.
Regards,
Roy
Ozzie:
Referring to Barbara Bush being a pro abort, did you even read your own link?
Stanek clearly cites Newsweek as her source.
Being an ex Chicago Tribune subscriber, which is the employer of Eric Zorn, I will tell you that he is nothing more than a typical leftist shill. It is funny that you call Stanek an extremest while omitting that fact about Zorn.
http://www.illinoisrighttolife.org/newpage36
Pleas provide a link for this.
Illinois Department of Public Health - Your query Christ Hospital live abortion matched 0 documents.
This is all I get on their web site.
http://tinyurl.com/5ljars
I also come up with no response at the Attorney General website.
In all of your remarks all you do is try and refute this particular instant of an aborted infant left to die.
In fact infants did live through botched abortions.
http://tinyurl.com/64yce9
The facts indeed show that Obama voted against protection for the most innocent of all.
On a similar note, Obama voted against a parental notification bill while state senator. This bill would have required parents of minors to be informed when these minors were to be operated on to abort their babies.
This seems an anomalous situation and there is, to my mind, a plausible explanation - somebody sent him- Roy
You could be right. Or, he could have been worried that the bill, as written, would undermine abortion rights, and therefore his career.
“I grew up in Boston and worked for many years for a labor union in New York City. I am well familiar with the workings of one party cities. Doesn’t bother me. It’s the way it is.” - Roy
My mom was from Boston and my oldest son lives in Chicago. So, I know exactly what you mean. I’m not a fan of party politics, or the mudslinging and distortions that come with the territory. But that’s how it is, isn’t it?
My No. 1 concern is civil liberties, which I think are hanging by an ever-slimming thread. I wish I could be more optimistic, but I see most things as a struggle between authoritarian and libertarian views, with authoritrianism winning.
>>My No. 1 concern is civil liberties, >>
Such as?
>>which I think are hanging by an ever-slimming thread.>>
How so?
Dear Ozzie,
I too am concerned with civil liberties. The danger is from the left.
Regards,
Roy
Dear Ozzie,
I too am concerned with civil liberties. The danger is from the left.
Regards,
Roy
And I would argue that the danger comes from the authoritarian left and the authoritarian right.
I found this interesting, Perhaps you will, too:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Dear Ozzie,
I tried the link - they won’t talk to me for some reason.
I just got there. Loaded questions from the get go. I looked at the first page and couldn’t find an answer that I would care to choose.
Yes, there is a radical left and a radical right. The problem is that the left has taken over the Democrats while the right has had very little success attaining power within the Republican Party.
Don’t worry about the lion on the horizon when you’ve got a tiger up close.
Regards,
Roy
>>My No. 1 concern is civil liberties, >>
Such as?
Civil Liberties have been a concern since Day One.
“The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse.” — PRESIDENT JAMES MADISON(12/2/1829)
“Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.” — PRESIDENT THOMAS JEFFERSON: (1778)
But the Bill of Rights has been steadily under assault, from both Republican and Democrats alike. The Truman adminstration, with its “Security Portfolio” program was not a friend of Civil Liberties, nor was LBJ’s (Operation Garden Plot) or Ronald Reagan’s (Rex 84). The Kennedys, who were supposed champions of civil rights, authorized the FBI to spy on Martin Luther King and bugged reporters’ phones.
No Republic has lasted more than 300 years. When lady asked Benjamin Franklin what form of government America woud have he replied, “A republic, if you can keep it.” Can we keep it?
>>which I think are hanging by an ever-slimming thread.>>
How so?
Consider the following:
1.
From a 1987 Miami Herald article:
FEMA’s clash with Smith occurred over a secret contingency plan that called for suspension of the Constitution, turning control of the United States over to FEMA, appointment of military commanders to run state and local governments and declaration of martial law during a national crisis. The plan did not define national crisis, but it was understood to be nuclear war, violent and widespread internal dissent or national opposition against a military invasion abroad.
2.
Foundations are in place for martial law in the US
By Ritt Goldstein
July 27 2002
“From 1982-84 Colonel Oliver North assisted FEMA in drafting its civil defence preparations. Details of these plans emerged during the 1987 Iran-Contra scandal.
They included executive orders providing for suspension of the constitution, the imposition of martial law, internment camps, and the turning over of government to the president and FEMA.”
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/27/1027497418339.html
3.
June 10, 2002
The Model State Emergency Health Powers Act: An Assault on Civil Liberties in the Name of Homeland Security
by Sue Blevins
Heritage Lecture #748
A number of people have asked me what health freedom could possibly have to do with homeland security. Let me assure you that there is a major connection. It’s called the Model State Emergency Health Powers Act. Those who have heard of it are far outnumbered by those who have not. And, as proposed, the Model State Emergency Health Powers Act will impact our individual freedoms and civil liberties for years to come.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/HomelandSecurity/HL748.cfm
4.
Hidden Threats:
The U.S. Army director of resource management has confirmed the validity of a memorandum relating to the establishment of a civilian inmate labor program under development by the Department of Army. The document states, “Enclosed for your review and comment is the draft Army regulation on civilian inmate labor utilization” and the procedure to “establish civilian prison camps on installations.. . I found it significant when Rep. Henry Gonzalez, D-TX, clarified the question of the existence of these civilian detention camps. In an interview Hank said, “the truth is yes — you do have these standby provisions, and the plans are here … whereby you could, in the name of stopping terrorism … evoke the military and arrest Americans and put them in detention camps.. . .
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=19492
5. Homeland Security Contracts KBR to Build Detention Centers in the US
“. . . In the 1980s Richard Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld discussed similar emergency detention powers as part of a super-secret program of planning for what was euphemistically called “Continuity of Government” (COG) in the event of a nuclear disaster.. . These men planned for suspension of the Constitution, not just after nuclear attack, but for any “national security emergency. . . ENDGAME’s goal of a capacious detention capability is remarkably similar to Oliver North’s controversial Rex-84 “readiness exercise” for COG in 1984.. . . ”
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/14-homeland-security-contracts-kbr-to-build-detention-centers-in-the-us/
6.
U.S. Can Confine Citizens Without Charges, Court Rules
By Jerry Markon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, September 10, 2005; Page A01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/09/AR2005090900772.html
7.
New Guidelines Would Give FBI Broader Powers
21 August 2008
the new guidelines would allow the FBI to open an investigation of an American, conduct surveillance, pry into private records and take other investigative steps “without any basis for suspicion.” The plan “might permit an innocent American to be subjected to such intrusive surveillance based in part on race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, or on protected First Amendment activities,”
http://hstoday.us/content/view/4816/189/
Referring to Barbara Bush being a pro abort, did you even read your own link? - Rock
Yes, Rock. This is from the link I provided:
“Mrs. Barbara Bush was a pro-abort, too. She went so far as to push removing the pro-life plank from the Republican platform when both her husband and son were running for president.
Mrs. Barbara Bush’s platform as first lady was illiteracy, so she obviously thought abortion was a solution to illiteracy.”
She takes on Laura Bush for being “pro-abortion” too, but doesnt go as far as to accuse Laura of pushing for abotion as a “solution to illiteracy.” (She also believes in China, “aborted fetuses are much sought after delicacies.”).
Oh, and Stanek is a former nurse. She was fired.
When you can’t and won’t judge events occurring now, like say with Obama, what makes you think, Oz, you become qualified to judge events from the past? Simply because somebody read history and gave you their impressions of what truth was, and therefore you accept it? That is very different from perceiving the truth by an active means.
Simply because somebody read history and gave you their impressions of what truth was, and therefore you accept it? That is very different from perceiving the truth by an active means.- Ymar
My perceptions of the truth are just that: perceptions. For example, I dont believe that Jill Stanek is telling the truth, based on my perceptions, which are based on her writings. She seems like an extremist, with an extreme agenda.
I wonder: Would a hospital really encourage employees to take babies to a soiled utility room to die? Isnt that against the law? Wouldn’t they be taking huge risks? And I weigh these questions against the person making the allegations and come to my conclusions, while understanding that I could be wrong.
When it comes to verifiable truth, however - especially where the CIA is concerned, it takes decades before things are declassified, which is why I trust those who use declassified information to prove a point, over those who use exclamatory language and questionable proof.
Take the Sept. 11, 1973 coup in Chile, for example. Richard Helms lied to Congress, regarding the U.S, role in the coup to overthrow Allende. http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Richard-Helms Documents that were later declassified, however, uncovered the truth:
“In a secret cable, CIA deputy director of plans, Thomas Karamessines, conveys Kissinger’s orders to CIA station chief in Santiago, Henry Hecksher: “It is firm and continuing policy that Allende be overthrown by a coup.” The “operating guidance” makes it clear that these operations are to be conducted so as to hide the “American hand”. . . http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8.htm
For More:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm
So, yes, when possible, I favor verifiable proof over perception and opinion.
A follow up from that “extremest” Jill Stanek.
http://tinyurl.com/4vplch
Follow the link to Stanek’s website and listen to the audio.
A man who would allow this barbaric procedure is defended while Stanek is labeled the extremest.
Only in liberal wonderland.
A man who would allow this barbaric procedure is defended while Stanek is labeled the extremest.- Rock
I listened to it and it’s identical to transcripts that have been posted. Obama is saying that he doenst think an second dr needs to be called in to see if a baby is alive, but he’s not advocating killing a baby that is born alive, as Stanek indicates.
In other words, regardless how barbaric you or I find abortion, I dont doubt that Obama is an advocate for abortion rights. I doubt that he wants to kill babies, after they are born.
I dont think Stanek is an extremist because she is pro-life. I think she is en extremist because:
1) She believes Barbara Bush is “pro abort” and condones abortion as a means to control illiteracy.
2) She believe that the Chinese actually eat aborted fetuses as a delicacy.
3) She refers to those who disagree with her stem cell stance as “Cannibals.”
4) She lobbies for bulletin boards equating the use of contraception with death.
You believe her utility closet story, while I, after taking a good look at Ms Stanek’s writings, have my doubts.
>>Civil Liberties have been a concern since Day One.>>
Which of your civil liberties do you feel are in imminent danger?
>> These men planned for suspension of the Constitution, not just after nuclear attack, but for any “national security emergency.>>
(Choosing this one because it seems to summarize all of your examples)
You think this is unreasonable? Or is it your concern that a “national security emergency” will be used as a false premise to dispose of the Constitution?
You know…you could suspend the Constitution, but you’d still have to have someone in place to enforce your unconstitutional requirements…how would you accomplish that? Are you aware that the military takes an oath to “defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic”? Are you aware that the US miitary is not permitted to act in any civilian capacity without the express permission of the Governor of the state involved, and for the President to require that would be against the law - as the military understands it? In other words, for a massive takeover of power such as you seem to fear, you’d have to have in place both a president and military commanders (notice that I use the plural) who are in agreement. I suspect you’d also need a far greater military force than we have at present. Do you have any idea how big this country is? and relatively speaking, how small our military is?
If a person enters an emergency room bleeding and collapses on the floor, and if the hospital staff walks around him and does nothing to assist him, are they liable for his death?
Does it matter if the man just shot and killed a police officer ?
Are you aware that the military takes an oath to “defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic”? Are you aware that the US miitary is not permitted to act in any civilian capacity without the express permission of the Governor of the state involved, and for the President to require that would be against the law - as the military understands it? -suek
Posse Comitatus, the law forbidding the military from being used to police US citizens, is considered by Homeland Security to be a myth.
“The Posse Comitatus Act has traditionally been viewed as a major barrier to the use of U.S. military forces in planning for homeland defense.[1] In fact, many in uniform believe that the act precludes the use of U.S. military assets in domestic security operations in any but the most extraordinary situations. As is often the case, reality bears little resemblance to the myth for homeland defense planners. Through a gradual erosion of the act’s prohibitions over the past 20 years, posse comitatus today is more of a procedural formality than an actual impediment to the use of U.S. military forces in homeland defense.
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm
Some History:
1967: President Johnson established the National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders, assisted by an Army task force to use military force to squelch civil disturbances. On May 4, 1970, four students were killed at Kent State University.
1971: Sen. Sam Ervin’s Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights uncovered a military intelligence surveillance system used against thousands of American citizens, and stumbledupon Operation Garden Plot, the United States Civil Disturbance Plan 55-2. According to information released under the Freedom of Information Act in 1990, Plan 55-2 gives federal forces power to “put down” “disruptive elements” and calls for “deadly force to be used against any extremist or dissident perpetrating any and all forms of civil disorder.”
July 5, 1987: The Miami Herald reported that while deputy director, John Brinkerhoff modeled FEMA’s martial law program after Louis Giuffrida’s proposal to squelch black militant uprisings by placing “at least 21 million American Negroes” into “assembly centers or relocation camps.” In Feb. 2002, Brinkerhoff wrote a paper for the Anser Institute for Homeland Security defending the Pentagon’s desire to deploy troops on American streets,
Nov. 2001: the Model State Emergency Health Powers Act (MEHPA) was introduced to governors of all 50 states. MEHPA called for mandatory vaccinations and allowed for confiscation of citizen’s real estate, food, medicine and other private property; and outlined plans to herd afflicted citizens into stadiums.
Feb. 2002: Former FEMA deputy director, John Brinkerhoff defended the Pentagon’s desire to deploy troops on American streets, arguing that the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 has been misinterpreted.
Sept, 2005: Blackwater mercenaries were deployed in New Orleans: ” They all carried automatic assault weapons and had guns strapped to their legs. Their flak jackets were covered with pouches for extra ammunition. When asked what authority they were operating under, one guy said, “We’re on contract with the Department of Homeland Security.” Then, pointing to one of his comrades, he said, “He was even deputized by the governor of the state of Louisiana. We can make arrests and use lethal force if we deem it necessary.” The man then held up the gold Louisiana law enforcement badge he wore around his neck. Blackwater spokesperson Anne Duke also said the company has a letter from Louisiana officials authorizing its forces to carry loaded weapons. ”
2006: Former Regan administration official Paul Craig Roberts warned against “a provision in the “PATRIOT Act II” which creates a new federal police force with the power to violate the Bill of Rights.” He said: Go to House Report 109-333 USA PATRIOT Improvement and Reauthorization Act of 2005 and check it out for yourself. Sec. 605 reads:
“There is hereby created and established a permanent police force, to be known as the ‘United States Secret Service Uniformed Division.’”
This new federal police force is “subject to the supervision of the Secretary of Homeland Security.” The new police are empowered to “make arrests without warrant for any offense against the United States committed in their presence, or for any felony cognizable under the laws of the United States if they have reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing such felony.”
The new police are assigned a variety of jurisdictions, including “an event designated under section 3056(e) of title 18 as a special event of national significance” (SENS).
There is also legislation meant to criminalize dissent:
In 2001, former White House counsel John Dean wrote that, thanks to the Patriot Act, the “right to dissent” is in jeopardy, with protesters possibly considered “terrorists.” Dean considered this an “unintended consequence” of the new anti-terror legislation, but National Lawyers Guild president Michael Avery said that the Bush administration was “trying to criminalize dissent, characterize protesters as terrorists and trying to intimidate and marginalize those opposed to its policies.” After a New York state jury refused to convict four Catholic antiwar activists for protesting at a U.S. military recruiting office in 2005, the federal government stepped in, filing charges including “conspiracy to impede an officer of the United States,” which could send each protester to prison for up six years.
Even before Sept. 11, a document entitled “Domestic Operational Law Handbook for Judge Advocates,” reflected a movement towards a more militarized society. The JAG document, which called for “providing military assistance for civil disturbances” cited the ’60s era Operation Garden Plot, the United States Civil Disturbance Plan 55-2, which gave federal forces the power to “put down” “disruptive elements” and called for “deadly force to be used against any extremist or dissident perpetrating any and all forms of civil disorder.”
I
Dear Ozzie,
Did you notice that almost all of the abuses you cite occurred during Democratic administrations? As to Blackwater, they claimed their authority was granted by the Democratic Governor. As to the force authorized by the Patriot Act - we have a number of law enforcement agencies in the Federal Government - all with the same powers and restrictions.
The situations that you worry so much about were addressed by the founders. A little research will show that they wanted an armed citizenry to guard against abuses of power. It’s in the Constitution - Second Amendment. It’s the Democrats who have been trying to restrict the availability of firearms. It’s the Republicans who are the staunch defenders of the right to keep and bear arms.
I think you might reconsider your sources. There are a zillion willful liars out on the web with hidden agendas. What I look for is any attempt to alarm or the use of pejorative language or the advocacy of particular policy positions. When I’m looking for entertainment I might read them. When I’m looking for truth it’s Ctrl-F4 as fast as I can.
Regards,
Roy
Did you notice that almost all of the abuses you cite occurred during Democratic administrations? _Roy
I think both parties are at fault, Roy.The Reagan and Bush administrations have pretty dismal records.
In this clip, Oliver North is questioned re: Rex 84 during the Iran-Contra Hearings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug0IL7k3elQ
Is Ozzie saying he believes that all babies born alive after an abortion attempt WERE cared for as if they were patients?
And that Jill Stanek is the ONLY person who testifies that this was not being done, in at least some cases?
I’ve never personally seen a living baby born as the after-effect of an abortion attempt, but it happened in Colorado in the 1970s, of that I’m quite sure. My wife was working part time in various departments when she saw a badly burned baby that had been born alive after a saline abortion - it was left in a pan covered with a towel to die, without care of any kind. The staff didn’t seem shocked - apparently that was the standard procedure. She was horrified and moved to pediatrics. The law was passed because this kind of thing WAS going on.
Furthermore, if you read the “ethics” literature, you’re going to find plenty of folks who follow Peter Singer in promoting the idea that parents should have a period of time after ANY birth in which to decide if the child is to be accepted - and the right to kill it if not. These people are teaching our medical students. So, to imagine that “everyone” accepts that all babies born alive must be cared for is simply to stick your head in the sand.
Ozzie says
Lets go to the source.
1) Already covered previously, but ignored. Stanek cites a Newsweek story.
2)
Stanek goes on to postulate based on the story cited.
3)
You obviosly disagree with her terminology. You give it a name.
http://tinyurl.com/4gxgmk
4)
As anyone can see, there is more to the story.
You attempt to marginalize Stanek as an extremest as a way to dismiss her and her opinions.
Disingenuous at best.
Oh yeah, here is the link to Media Matters. This appears to be where you gleaned your information.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200808210078?f=h_top
Already covered previously, but ignored. Stanek cites a Newsweek story.- Rock
Read the link again. She cites the Newsweek study regarding something entirely different, after calling Barbara and Laura Bush ‘Pro-Abort.”
In the end, Stanek could write about anything - including her beleif that the Chinese eat aborted fetuses , and people who believe her story will continue to believe that Obama condones Infanticide.
(Jezebel.com covered this, which is where I read this nifty info, though they may have gotten their info from media matters. But for a saner look at this issue:
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20080813.html )
Is Ozzie saying he believes that all babies born alive after an abortion attempt WERE cared for as if they were patients?
– Earl
Things may have been differrent in the 1970s, but it’ s my understanding that Illinois state law already required that any viable baby be kept alive.
Even before Stanek became involved.
I have qualms about Stanek’s “utility room” story for several reasons, mostly because I doubt a doctor and/or hospital would risk everything to kill a baby by sending it off to a utility closet, when that’s clearly against the law.
People believe who and what they want to believe however.
But the more articles I read by her, the less I believe her. I’m not being disengenous. I honestly think she’s a zealot.
Ozzie,
Nice job injecting a differing view into this echo chamber of like-minded conservative thought. Too bad the fairness doctrine cannot be resurrected and then enforced upon these one-sided blogs. I know, it would run against the sentiments of us libertarians, but it might actually elevate the level of discourse and thinking on left- and right-wing blogs alike. The right-wing blogs are calling Obama a baby-killer and the left-wing blogs are alleging that McCain was kept alive because he was a traitor in Vietnam. It truly is that once-every-four-years silly season again.
On this complex issue of abortion, in all seriousness, I wanted to ask why conservatives only focus on one side of the problem of “baby-killing.” If the anti-abortionists would like to stop the “murders” then they should call for a concurrent ban on in-vitro fertilization, whose carnage rivals the nearly 49 million abortions that have occurred in this country since Roe v. Wade.
A little math… The average IVF procedure causes 7-8 embryos, of which 1-2 are emplanted while the rest are destroyed. More than 250K IVF cycles are performed in the US each year, and the procedure has been around for 30 years. This implies upwards of 45 million unwanted embryos have been destroyed or frozen indefinitely (which is essentially the same thing).
Ideologues on the right like to recount the horror stories of newly-born babies, the product of abortions of abortions, left to die in the hospital, although the frequency of these events is a rounding error to a rounding error versus the “deaths” associated with IVF. And conservative politicians like to pass redundant laws ensuring that doctors do not let those babies die, even though there are umpteen sanctions in place to prevent this sort of thing–from the hippocratic oath to civil and criminal liability of the doctor and the hospital. Meanwhile, most of these same conservatives that decry abortions and call Obama a “baby-killer” support or quietly tolerate IVF, which causes roughly as many “infanticides.” If life begins at conception, then IVF is definitely a procedure that should be despised and fought by conservatives. Yet there is deafening silence…actually, loud and inflammatory rhetoric designed to disguise their hypocrisy. And we haven’t even come to the greatest double-speak soon to come when the miracle cures arrive…
You see, some of these embryos are being used to develop very promising omni-potent stem cell research. Just this week, researchers turned some into blood cells–a wonderful innovation given the low donation levels and myriad risks associated with our blood bank. I wonder how many conservatives will pass up the miracle cures for Parkinsons, cancer, et. al. even though those cures are the product of “infanticide.” While a minority of anti-abortionists sincerely oppose IVF and may even reject stem-cell derived cures, I suspect the majority of abortion opponents will quickly change their views when the collateral damage is no longer a stranger but their own well-being.
I am tired of these silly abortion arguments based on contrived, improbable stories perpetuated by ideologues, whose hypocrisy on this issue is breathtaking. But it is an election year, and Obama must be stopped at all cost. So, please, continue the allegations of baby-killing. But don’t forget to remain thankful that those doctors and scientists won’t be looking up your blogging history on the abortion issue on the day that you show up in a clinic or hospital seeking IVF or life-saving cures derived from embryonic stem cells.
Dear dg,
Actually there have been about 300,000 IVF procedures since the procedure became widespread.
http://www.docshop.com/education/fertility/treatments/in-vitro/
This hardly approaches the number of abortions since Roe v Wade.
The essential difference is that IVF is performed to create life.
Regards,
Roy
Roy,
Actually, your source cites 300K babies conceived but the success rate is currently less than 20% and likely less than 5% on average over the history of the procedure. Moreover, those success rates occur over multiple “cycles” so there are a lot of fertilized eggs that are consumer–or, in conservatives’ parlance, babies killed–before a successful live birth occurs. The number of consumed embryos is closer to 30M than 300K. You’ll have to study the procedure and statistics more closely.
It is true that abortions only terminate life while IVF creates life, but an abortion only terminates one embryo while IVF terminates several. So why is IVF better, much less morally justified, much less logically distinct versus abortion? I thought the conservative view was pretty clear, and well articulated by McCain at Saddleback this past week: human rights inhere to the unborn at conception. In the case of IVF, as in abortions, there are a lot of conceptions occurring in-vitro and in-utero that are subsequently terminated. Please show a little more nuance and depth than “IVF is performed to create life.” This issue is too complex to be reduced to such absurdity.
“Nice job injecting a differing view into this echo chamber of like-minded conservative thought. Too bad the fairness doctrine cannot be resurrected and then enforced upon these one-sided blogs. I know, it would run against the sentiments of us libertarians, but it might actually elevate the level of discourse and thinking on left- and right-wing blogs alike. “– dg
I’m not so sure. When everything is viewed through a “Left Vs Right” prism the free flow of ideas comes to a gridning halt. Left wingers think I’m a conserative throwback to the 50s, and right wingers think I’m some sort of leftie.
Oh, well.
But I will say this about Bookworm’s site: Most people here are considerate and dont try to pigeonhole me. I appreciate that.
But speaking of elevated discorse, I ran across an old Johnny Carson/Jim Garrison interview. After the interview, people supposedly wrote in wondering why Carson was so rude to Garrison and NBC sent out thousands of form letters, which read: “The Johnny seen on TV that night was not the Johnny we all know and love. He had to play the devil’s advocate, because that makes for a better program”.
Can you imagine something like that happening today? To paraphrase Stephen Colbert, these days, many talk show hosts seem to want to “nail” their guests with “truthiness.”
—————————————————–
“The right-wing blogs are calling Obama a baby-killer and the left-wing blogs are alleging that McCain was kept alive because he was a traitor in Vietnam. It truly is that once-every-four-years silly season again.” - dg
Honest-to-God.
Some truly believe the distortions, while others capitilize on the distortions.
Karl Rove is a hero to some, but when I think of Rove, I always think of Lee Atwater’s death bed confession. (With a little Charles Dickens thrown in).
Well-said, Ozzie. I have the same problem with the left and right wanting to pigeon-hole me. I am glad to hear that this site is filled with reasonable, civil bloggers. Good to know and nice change of pace from the rest of the blogosphere or broader media.
Dear dg,
What makes you think I’m a conservative?
As to the moral issue many (including the Catholic Church) misquote the Sixth Commandment as “You shall not kill”. The original text, as recognized by Judaism and the Orthodox Church, is “You shall not murder”. There are only obscure references in the Bible that require a stretch to interpret them to be about abortion. There is a profound difference in the meaning of “kill” vs. “murder”. Thus, the anti abortion position depends on the definition as to when life begins.
In the case of IVF embryos they are not discarded,
they simply fail to impregnate. There are some indications that many conceptions fail in the same manner - women do not get pregnant every time they have intercourse. The expression “at the time of conception” does not mean the time that an egg is fertilized, but rather when a viable pregnancy begins.
Regards,
Roy
And Ozzie, I do like your commitment to the two key requirements for a free flow of ideas and productive discussion about them: 1) commitment to empiricism, and 2) adherence to logical consistency. As you know, ideologues on the left and right absolutely hate these tenets.
Roy, I don’t know if you are a conservative. I’m merely responding to the conservative canards that label Obama a baby killer and reduce the abortion debate to jingoism.
Clearly, both sides of the abortion debate must make an assumption when life begins, and they talk at cross-purposes because their sources of authority are different (e.g., Bible, biology, political convenience, etc.). That’s why I liked Obama’s answer at Saddlebrook regarding the need for “a higher pay grade” to answer it definitively.
Relatedly, I don’t know about your definition of conception, since the one I learned in Catholic Sunday school spoke of conception as the realization of human potential, which genetically we know occurs when a diploid zygote is formed from the fusion of sperm and egg. This human potential is also what Bookworm referenced from rabbinical thinking.
On IVF, there are embryos terminated in the petri dish and others terminated after they have attached. Depending on your definition of conception, which I guess is also debatable, you can count both sets of terminations as infanticide or just the latter set. Either way, there are, from the conservative standpoint, babies dying in IVF.
While we cannot definitively agree on when human rights inhere or even when conception occurs, we can at least be logically consistent. If conservatives say human rights start at my or your definition of conception, then you have to decry IVF and embryonic stem cell research. Bush only has banned the latter, not the former–a glaring inconsistency. And McCain, to my knowledge, has not criticized either one–a shading of arguments that is prudent for a politician running for President. I would like to hear how conservatives logically square this inconsistency.
Dear DG,
I am conservative. I am not “a conservative”. I am much more comfortable with the writings of Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk than I am with the current crop of Limbaugh, O’Reilly and Hannity.
In my lifetime the radical left hijacked the label “liberal” and the radical right hijacked the label “conservative”. When I was young liberal and conservative were ways of thinking about the world, not a checklist of policy positions.
As to the morality argument, I am not sufficiently conversant with theology to cogently explain why there are differences between abortion and IVF. I only know that abortion is considered murder while IVF is considered as inadvertent killing.
If Kirk were alive I believe that he would disapprove of the on going battle as being disruptive to society and unlikely to be resolved.
Kirk wrote a brief summary of his philosophy called “Ten Conservative Principles”. It should be read if for no other reason than it illustrates how a brilliant mind can succinctly present a whole school of political thought.
http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html
Regards.
Roy
My understanding of IVF is that “extra” embryos are created in order to avoid the discomfort and expense of starting over again if the first set implanted fail to “take” and produce a pregnancy. The “extras” are then “frozen” and saved for the next try. It is these embryos that are the subject of intense interest for experimenters, since many of them belong to couples who have had the child(ren) they want, so the frozen embryos are “excess” to the needs/desires of their parents.
If one accepts the empirical evidence, that fertilization results in the first cell of a new human being, then these embryos in the freezer are simply “people” like you and me, just at a very early stage of development. What they are, we once were; what we are, they will become, if only they are given the natural environment in which they were designed to develop into what (almost) everyone accepts as a person with rights.
I do accept the above, and therefore would never fertilize more than the two or three eggs to be implanted immediately. To do otherwise puts embryonic human beings in a greater danger than I believe to be warranted, since it’s not for THEIR good that this is done - it’s for the parents’ desire to save money and discomfort.
Likewise, I would not accept vaccines produced using fetal tissue from abortions, or cures derived from the killing of human embryos in order to “harvest” their stem cells. If you think about it dispassionately, it’s very difficult to find a non-arbitrary point at which the baby delivered by the midwife (or whoever) gains its human rights - unless of course, you accept the single “bright line” that occurs when the new and unique genome is formed….that is, at fertilization.
To those who choose “implantation”, this marker entails something pretty horrific when technology produces an “artificial uterus” where “implantation” NEVER takes place…..then, the baby is produced, but has no rights, and can be broken up for parts. If you think this is far-fetched, then you haven’t been reading either science fiction or the contemporary bioethics literature. Other markers have similar problems.
The only safety any of us have is to treat every human being alike - all of us have the SAME set of rights. Any division of the human race, into those with full rights and those with fewer, will not (on the testimony of history and knowledge of human nature) be stable. The group with fewer than full human rights will grow and grow, because the powerful will want to use the weaker for their own purposes.
You do not need to be “religious” to take the position I’m outlining - have a look at the libertarians for life, run by a Jewish atheist female, Doris Gordon - http://www.l4l.org/
Earl, great post. When you articulate your points like that, it is hard to disagree with you and easy to respect that perspective. In contrast, I have always felt that it is consciousness that makes us human, and life begins with the emergence of brain waves. Abortions occuring before this point are not problematic. Some might argue that I have interfered with a human potentiality, but a condom does this as well (which is why the Catholics are incredibly consistent in their view on birth control). I am not interested in potentialities because you can play what-ifs forever (e.g. a university prevents a birth by rejecting an applicant and thereby precluding the father from ever meeting the mother). I like to stick to what I can measure, so it’s brain waves.
So I have a hypothetical for you. If science could manufacture a human body without a brain ever developing in order to produce “spare parts” would you use it? I personally would do this so I could extend my life, which is a positive and ethical because I am not hurting anybody. As long as those parts are not coming from a sentient being, then the need for rights and avoidance of exploitation that you so adroitly articulate does not occur. If you are a non-religious pro-life advocate, then perhaps that predictable, first negative reaction (i.e., we cannot “play God”) may not enter your mind. In which case, I wonder what your thoughts would be on the hypothetical I raise, which one day not so far in the future may become a reality.
In my lifetime the radical left hijacked the label “liberal” and the radical right hijacked the label “conservative”. When I was young liberal and conservative were ways of thinking about the world, not a checklist of policy positions.- Roy
When do you believe this shift occured?
I read Eisenhower’s speeches — particularly his “cross of iron” speech and his warning about the “military-industrial complex” and he sounds lightyears away from those who call themselves conservative today.
Eisenhower’s granddaughter recently bemoaned this fact, explaining why she’s decided to leave the GOP.
From AndrewSulivan.com:
Susan Eisenhower Quits The GOP
22 Aug 2008 05:46 pm
Understandably:
“Hijacked by a relatively small few, the GOP of today bears no resemblance to Lincoln, Roosevelt or Eisenhower’s party, or many of the other Republican administrations that came after. In my grandparents’ time, the thrust of the party was rooted in: a respect for the constitution; the defense of civil liberties; a commitment to fiscal responsibility; the pursuit and stewardship of America’s interests abroad; the use of multilateral international engagement and “soft power”; the advancement of civil rights; investment in infrastructure; environmental stewardship; the promotion of science and its discoveries; and a philosophical approach focused squarely on the future.
As an independent I will now feel comfortable supporting people of any political party who reflect those core values.”
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/susan-eisenhowe.html
If you’re interested in her entire parting piece, Karl Rove’s tactics are also mentioned:
http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=19618
Hey Roy. Thanks for the link. It didn’t work when I clicked on it. I’ll try again later.
DG, I might have agreed with you about consciousness were in not for the fact that I got pregnant. When you see the first sonogram of your child’s little spine spread out like a string of pearls, and when you feel that active life within you (and each child is active in a very different way), the mechanical distinctions of brainwaves and consciousness fall by the way side. There is no question but that there is real life in the womb, and then one is stuck acknowledging that this life began at conception and matured. I’m not a die-hard pro-Life person, but I’d be lying at this point if I pretended life didn’t start at conception. And once you acknowledge that, you just begin to draw lines with which you feel comfortable.
I agree that you should draw lines where you personally feel comfortable. You do realize, however, that if you were looking at the sonogram of a turtle you’d find that same string of pearls. While the emotional aspect of it is important in personal decisionmaking, it is very problematic when trying to set something more objective–for the sake of policy-making.
As a parent, though, I totally can relate to that feeling that overwhelms you when you first see a sonogram of your unborn child.
Dear dg and Ozzie,
dg: That’s happening today. The Chinese sell the organs of executed prisoners on the international market. Some say that that accounts for some of the increase in death sentences. Very dangerous ground. That was Bush’s point in confining federal funding for embryonic stem cell research to the 40 established lines.
ozzie: For the Republicans it started in 1964 with Goldwater. For the Democrats it stated at the 1968 Democratic Convention. Before that we never heard the terms RINO and DINO. I’ve even heard some wingnuts call President Bush a RINO. The man’s grandfather was a United States Senator, his father was President. He was twice elected Governor of Texas and twice elected President. All as Republicans. And some solipsistic jerk elects himself as the gatekeeper for the Republican Party.
I’ve seen all of the Presidents since Truman. I think Eisenhower is the most underrated.
Andrew Sullivan: I started reading Sullivan when he first started blogging. At one point, all of a sudden, he flipped from moderate right to angry left. Without any explanation. There are a number of people who have made switches like that, except most all have been left to right. - “If you’re not liberal when you’re 20 you have no heart. If you’re not conservative when you’re 40 you have no brain” - Many of them explained at length why they made the journey. In almost all cases it was a gradual process. I don’t trust Sullivan. Not because of his political views but because it seems that he was seeking a larger audience. Arianna Huffington did the same.
Regards,
Roy
I agree that you should draw lines where you personally feel comfortable.
I believe those lines are drawn by universal ethics, not personal preferences.
I started reading Sullivan when he first started blogging. At one point, all of a sudden, he flipped from moderate right to angry left.
It was the gay thing and the war thing. He jumped on the boat where his bread was buttered, same as Benedict Arnold.
Ymarsakar, I’m glad you believe those line should be drawn by universal ethics. Please show me where those universal ethics are. Given the disagreement around the world over ethics, I wonder whose “universal” ethics you’re talking about. Could they be the ones that you espouse? In which case, how do they go from being personal/subjective ethics to universal ones?
Sorry Roy, but that allegation that death sentences in China increased because they sell organs on the international market have been disproven. It is against the law in China to sell such organs. If the practice occurs, it is on the black market and beyond the reach of the government.
In any case, my point with the hypothetical was to show that you can have “bodies to harvest” without exploitation if you tweak the DNA to grow humans without brains. This is vastly different than convicting a jay-walker of a capital crime to sell his kidneys in Korea. I do wonder, seriously, about that hypothetical. It still makes sense to me…
On the China organs, the Chinese law requires consent by the family. If there is no family to claim the body, then the state can put the organs into the donor bank. I do believe that organs, in this latter case, are often taken without the prisoner’s consent. This is obviously not a great result, but it is also not the killing-for-organs scenario perpetuated in the US press.
Dear dg,
Universal ethics: There’s a real world test for that. The founders of this country, Deists all, expressed a belief in “Natural Law” which they expressed as “We find these truths to be self evident - that all men are created and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights..”. Our country is not perfect but this is where everybody wants to be.
As to Chinese law: not worth the paper it is printed on. I have a dear friend, a very successful man who studied Russian at Moscow University and Chinese at Beijing University. He still corresponds with friends in China and has visited many times. He is very fond of the Chinese people and optimistic about their future, but is realistic about the situation there. His view - life is good if you don’t step out of line. Don’t step out of line.
Regards,
Roy
Roy,
Thanks for the post. I’m not sure how recognizing that we have some inalienable rights generates universal ethics. First, what rights are included? Second, how to prioritize when they conflict? Third, which ones are absolute and which ones are contingent? What test covers all of this ground?
As for the Chinese, there is a huge gulf between saying that their laws are currently inferior as a protection to individuals and saying that they are not worth the paper they are printed on. The Chinese have incorporated the protection of private property into their laws only in the last 5-10 years and are attempting to develop a jurisprudence in decades that took the West centuries. Like your friend, I am very optimistic that they will succeed, but their laws will ultimately look different than ours because their culture is different than ours. We have a history informed by Greco-Roman law and Judeo-Christian ethics, while they have Confucianism, Taoism and the legal traditions of their dynasties to inform their system. They have mostly been at the pinnacle of civilization without resorting to the Magna Carta or the Old Testament, and they won’t necessarily need it going forward either. Hopefully, Westerners can accept a system that lacks our traditions but nonetheless functions as well. And hopefully, Westerners will understand that China, like Rome, is not built in a day.
dg: I have far more respect for those who choose something identifiable as the end of life, and say that they’ll accept this as the beginning of life, as well. Detection of brain waves is such an objective (relatively, anyhow) marker. If the criterion for whole brain death is taken as the criterion for life, then abortions before that time would be legitimate – leaving VERY little time (about 21 days from conception, if I remember right) to do an abortion, by the way, which is why almost no one will accept this marker. This criterion *would* remove the objection to some birth control pills, as well as IUDs and some other methods.
Of course, if you have in mind cortical brain waves, then you open another whole can of worms. The cortex forms later in the embryo (I’d have to go look this up), but it’s at the OTHER end of life that this standard would be even more problematic. There are plenty of ethicists touting it – since a door to abundant “harvestable” organs would be opened. But, people with flat cortical brain waves wake up and function normally (true, VERY infrequently) and the newest data is on people in a “vegetative state” that responded to Ambien by waking up and conversing. I think the “cortical brain wave” standard is simply a way of dehumanizing badly damaged people so we don’t have to respect their human rights.
I’m going to challenge you on the condom thing. A zygote is not a “potential” life, or “potential” anything else. It *is* a distinct human being at a very early stage of development. That’s a different category from a sperm and an egg, which are not separate human beings, and will never, unless we mess with them in some way (or just let them get together), become a human being.
Something similar to your hypothetical has been proposed, my friend. The idea would be to clone someone (it would have to be a really rich person) to form an embryo, and then as the brain just begins to form, disrupt the portions that will become the cortex, leaving only the parts that don’t really distinguish human from other animals. The human entity would then not be a “person” because of the lack of cortical function, and the rich person would have “spare parts”. From your perspective, this “works” because the “person” is never present. From mine, which does not distinguish between “human” and “person”, you have used another human being for you own ends, by depriving him/her of the chance to develop.
I don’t expect ever to see a human body grown without a brain….but the growth of various organs using adult stem cells? I think that’s coming…..and if we really can extend our lives in that way, I’ll be ready – assuming I can afford it!
At one point, all of a sudden, he flipped from moderate right to angry left. Without any explanation. - Roy
It was in late February, 2004, Roy, following Bush’s call for a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.
He explained shift in perspective thusly:
“It was because I believed in the Constitution of the United States that I felt no qualms in backing this president and in fighting rhetorical wars on his behalf - because that Constitution was under attack. . . So you can see, perhaps, why the bid to write anti-gay discrimination into this very Constitution provokes such a strong response from me - and so many other people, gay and straight, and their families. It robs us of something no one in this country should be robbed of - equality and inclusion in the founding document itself. When people tell me that, in weighing the political choices, the war on terror should trump the sanctity of the Constitution, my response is therefore a simple one. The sanctity of the Constitution is what we are fighting for. We’re not fighting just to defend ourselves. We are fighting to defend a way of life: pluralism, freedom, equality under the law.”
Sullivan received thousand e-mails regarding “the president’s shocking embrace of discrimination in the Constitution,” and as one e-mailer explained, “I have voted for every Republican nominee since Nixon and without regrets. Until now.”
Torture tends to set him off, too.
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Was that jerk Kevin Phillips, by any chance?
“I’ve even heard some wingnuts call President Bush a RINO. The man’s grandfather was a United States Senator, his father was President. He was twice elected Governor of Texas and twice elected President. All as Republicans. And some solipsistic jerk elects himself as the gatekeeper for the Republican Party.” — Roy
Was that jerk Kevin Phillips, by any chance?
The author of the Emerging Republican Majority, and a former Republican Strategist who also became an independent, he made the case that Susan Eisenhower makes: that respect for the Constitution is not a priority in today’s GOP, condemning the Bush family in particular.
Saying that the Bush’ family’s “sense of how to win elections comes out of a CIA manual, not out of the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution,” he also underscored ways Samuel Prescott Bush and George H. Walker were “present at the emergence of what became the U.S. military-industrial complex,” in which the Bush family has been entangled ever since.v (A 2004 LA Times article by Phillips lays out some of his arguments: http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jan/11/opinion/op-phillips11)
I’m uncomfortable when elected officials and their cronies benefit financially from policy decisions, and, whether its true or not, have read evidence that once upon a time, America’s leaders were, too.
Please show me where those universal ethics are.
You don’t believe in universal ethics. You cannot be shown what you will not see.
I can show Petraeus’ success in Iraq to a hundred million people in the world. Most will see it as a defeat, not as a victory or vindication of America or Bush.
Universal ethics has predicted and calculated people’s need to refuse to acknowledge reality. It continues to function, however, regardless of people’s subjective moralities.
The Chinese have incorporated the protection of private property into their laws only in the last 5-10 years and are attempting to develop a jurisprudence in decades that took the West centuries.
You are, again, mistaking speed for efficiency and production for ethical conduct. None of what you mentioned means a thing. They are not the West, nor are they trying to do as the West has done for the past 2 milleniums.
Also, it was you, dg, who said that it doesn’t matter to the dead factory worker whether he was killed by a totalitarian government with policies that intentionally sacrifice people like him or a democratic republic that tries to correct their mistakes after the fact.
This demonstrates a structure of equivalence where you see no benefit to democratic republics. Yet right here, you try to excuse Chinese progress by saying that they are getting better because they have been handicapped by a compression in law development.
So which is it. Does it not matter when people die because of your China’s policies what China’s government is like or will be. Or does it actually matter, when you decide it matters?
Earl: Again, nice post. What if I engineered the DNA to produce a body without the brain, so that within your 21 day window you don’t have a human? Would you buy that body for spare parts, as you would spare parts derived from adult (pluripotent) stem cells?
I agree about the “which brain waves?” can of worms, but at least we’ve moved the discussion into the realm of empiricism.
My issue with the potentiality of life is this: at three weeks, if a woman spontaneously aborts, we do not hold a funeral (no culture on the planet does this). Why not? Because it is not viewed as a human in the same way that a newly born child is, which is why you would hold the funeral for the still-born. There is a gradient of potentiality starting with haploid cells (sperm and egg), going through the zygote and then the differing stages of human development. I know that bright line tests are better, but they have to accord with reality also. Is a fertilized zygote a higher human potentiality than an unfertilized egg? Of course. Does it rise to a level warranting a funeral if lost? Clearly not.
Ymarsakar, I guess I’m searching for a definition of universal ethics that can be concretely defined, intuitively grasped and has a grounding in empirical evidence. An example: John Rawls, the famous 20th century American philosopher, spoke of employing a veil of ignorance to determine social welfare policies. Although difficult, one could imagine contemplating the point before you are born, not knowing where you would be born in the world, in what condition genetically and environmentally, and asking yourself what condition you would want the lowest levels of society to live in, given that you could end up there. This gets at universality because it strips away the differences in talent, wealth and even unique risk aversion that one might have, while having someone determine the level of insurance that a reasonable person would demand on average. It is a powerful idea, although still not without limitations. Kant, much earlier, also attempted to arrive at a rationally-derived set of ethics by demanding that any rule that is allowed to stand must be one that can be universalized. Pareto, borrowing from economics, described something similar in terms of optimalities and equilibrium. These are very powerful ideas, from brilliant minds, but they do not get us to a full set of ethics. I wonder what your system looks like and how it is similar to these herculean but still-lacking attempts, given that you speak of its in such absolutely certain, confident terms.
BTW, it absolutely does matter how a worker dies, but it must be tied to a relevant question. In the case of the discussion above, the question was whether China’s development is “more cruel” than ours. Bookworm appeared to think that because a “problematic state” organizes the development, then it is per se crueler. My point is that the Chinese government (and private enterprise working along side) is taking more steps in the name of safety than US companies did 100-150 years ago, and proof is the number of deaths in these major projects. Now “cruel” unfortunately connotes motive, which I would like to avoid–how do I know whether Rockefeller, Astor or Carnegie “cared” more about their laborers than Hu jin-tao or Li ka-shing? I would like to focus on statistics to determine which development destroyed or maimed more lives.
Now, regarding the value I personally place on political systems: of course I too prefer a political system that is more democratic. However, this is not a black-and-white discussion. If China shows that being less democratic earlier on achieves the necessary wealth and resources to become wealthy and more liberal (in the classical political sense) later on, then perhaps that model is better than the one espoused by neo-cons and other conservatives and followed by India and Russia.
I think the difference is that you have a set of ethical beliefs that are absolute and, you believe, absolutely compel everyone equally. Because various aspects of China’s system and method of development offend that system, you seem to discount massively the gains that have been made. I do not completely understand your system, reject its univeral and absolute nature, disagree that there is little value in what China has accomplished, and belive that in the future China will come out the other end looking like Singapore and, therefore, will vindicate itself in the eyes of all but the most reactionary minds (i.e., the few who still hate Singapore).
dg: Thanks. I appreciate debating this with someone rational and courteous, because “iron sharpens iron” as they say….one’s arguments get flabby without challenges.
First, I’m a biologist, but trained BEFORE the molecular revolution – my genetics class was basically Mendel! I’ve learned a lot over the years, because I’ve been teaching ‘WAY beyond my formal training, just in the General Biology class I offer to our majors. Amazing times in which we live.
OK, without a lot of deep thinking about this, it seems to me that if you COULD mess with the DNA *before fertilization*, so that the “entity” would produce body parts without a brain, then you wouldn’t have a human being – you would have human body parts. And that’s not problematic to anyone of whom I’m aware on the pro-life side – not even Benedict. However, I don’t think that works in the real world.
I’m going to be adamant about the biological reality, though, dg – I’m expert enough in my field to know that the fertilized egg (that is, the zygote) is no more “human potentiality” than is the newborn. Each is a human being in an early stage of development. Each is at risk (note the argument about the “born-alive infant protection act”), but both must have human rights if we don’t want constant arguments about which humans ought to have the right to life and which ought not.
By the way, my Mom lost a baby early in pregnancy over 50 years ago. I have never heard her talk about it, and only learned when I ask