Is this the election in which we morph from a democracy into a banana republic?
Bookworm on Oct 08 2008 at 6:28 pm | Filed under: Uncategorized
If ACORN has anything to do with it, we will become one of those third world “democracies” that need people to come oversee the elections to prevent fraud:
A radical group Barack Obama used to work for is committing voter-registration fraud in several states, ahead of the election. What does Obama know about this scam?
It’s a legitimate question to raise now that the FBI has raided the offices of the nonprofit Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now in Nevada and North Carolina, two states where Obama and John McCain are running neck-and-neck. ACORN has registered bogus voters in both states.
The group’s voter-registration fraud is rampant, and authorities plan a nationwide sweep of ACORN offices to collect records.
In Nevada, state officials say the fraudulent registrations included forms for the starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys football team, including quarterback Tony Romo.
“Romo is not registered to vote in the state of Nevada,” Secretary of State Ross Miller said, “and anybody trying to pose as Terrell Owens won’t be able to cast a ballot on Nov. 4.”
While those names will be flagged on Election Day, felonious voters may have better luck using other cutouts. Nevada, along with several other key battleground states, requires no ID to vote.
In North Carolina, where Obama has been running nonstop ads, ACORN has registered a record number of new voters, many of them suspicious. Statewide, Democrats are doing better than the GOP in new converts — even in traditionally Republican counties.
There have been 218,749 newly registered Democrats in North Carolina since January — more than five times the 38,337 new Republicans, state records show.
The numbers show a startlingly close political battle even in Republican-dominated Union County, with 4,233 new voters registering as Democrats and 4,362 as Republicans. In previous election years, new Republicans have outnumbered Democrats 2-to-1 in the fast-growing Charlotte-area county.
In Missouri, one ACORN registrant named Monica Rays showed up on no less than eight forms, all bearing the same signature.
Suspicious election officials sent letters to some 5,000 ACORN registrants in St. Louis, asking the letter recipients to contact them.
Fewer than 40 reponded.
In Kansas City, 15,000 registrations have been questioned, and last year four ACORN employees were indicted for fraud.
And that’s only the half of it. Read the rest here.
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101 Responses to “Is this the election in which we morph from a democracy into a banana republic?”
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Amazing.
I wonder if Ozzie has concerns, any concerns at all about this?
Deana
It is the one where we gave up the last pretense of being a free-market republic.
“Soviet” is probably the best term available to us.
I wonder if Ozzie has concerns, any concerns at all about this?
Deana
First of all, we morphed into a Banana Republic during the 2000 election. In addition to Stephen Sponamore’s recent testimony, (i.e that both the 2000 and 2004 elections were hacked) in 2004, Clint Curtis testified regarding Election Rigging, saying that if exit polls differ vastly from vote totals, hacking has occurred. (Sidenote: The day Curtis appeared in Washington, D.C. to testify, December 13, 2004, his two-year-old German shepherd, Champ, was shot dead).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEzY2tnwExs&feature=related
Wired also discussed Clint Curtis’ Testimony re: rigging the 2000 election and Florida..
There is so much happening on the election fraud/rigging front, but it’s amazing how people are only concerned when they think that “their team” is at risk. Our country is at risk and has been for a long time.
Election activists view this whole thing differently than you all do, and believe that it’s an attempt to divert attention from GOP plans to rig elections in 6 or more states and/or cast doubt on any Obama win. (and if you dont think the FBI is ever used in such a manner, you really should read a bit more).
As for me? Until Mike Connell, whom Spoonamore fingered as the point man for previous electoral funny business, stops trying to dodge the subpoena requiring him to testify in Ohio, we probably wont get to know the full truth about 2000 or 2004, let alone plans for this election.
(Spoonamore says that this election wil most likely also be hacked, and not surprisingly, Connell is now working for John McCain).
I still contend that partisanship blinds Americans to the fact that we’ve been bamboozled for years and that America is becoming a country none of us wil be able to recognize.
You’re worried about Communism and socialism and big government under Obama, yet seem A-OK with what has occured under Geroge W. Bush.
The Liberal Vs Conservative, Republicans Vs Demcoract nonsense is a smokescreen. We the people are in this together and politicians, and the politcal system, simply can’t be trusted.
>>We the people are in this together and politicians, and the politcal system, simply can’t be trusted.>>
And the alternative would be…?
A possible solution would be….???
And the alternative would be…?
A possible solution would be….??? - suek
I believe that if Americans stepped back and cared more about the truth and principle than about partisan politics, we’d be a force to be reckoned with.
Stolen elections are a serious matter by any standard, but you can’t only care when you feel that your team is threatened and overlook oddities when your team benefits.
Well all suffer from the tendency to look at the “other team’s” sins, while ignoring the overriding principle of putting Truth above all.
There is another side to this ACORN story and it might behoove you to consider another possiblity rather than trusting kneejerk reactions. Poeple can overide partian bias, through common sense.
You can start, for example, by simply asking yourself: “Who needs to cheat in order to win?”
Ozzie,
No one condones voter fraud.
There are dozens of bills in Congress to make electronic voting more secure and provide a paper trail.
None of these bills have been acted on as I understand it, by either party.
Voter fraud is not a new concept.
It is generally accepted that Chicago delivered the election to Kennedy in 1960.
And the country is going to be the benficiary of Chicago politics again.
Sometimes I can’t figure out what you mean? Are you suggesting that if we want to put Truth above all, we’ll vote for Obama?
Sometimes I can’t figure out what you mean? Are you suggesting that if we want to put Truth above all, we’ll vote for Obama?- brian
If we put truth above all, we wouldn’t be asking, ““Is this the election in which we morph from a democracy into a banana republic?”
And we wouldn’t be pooh-poohing legitimate concerns about the last two elections.
All that aside, by only viewing things through the lens of one poltical party, people miss the bigger picture.
I know you dont understand where I’m coming from. And I dont know how to make it any clearer.
Let me put it this way: While people are fretting about the Democrats’ plans for socialism and big government and the plot to steal your money, they tend to overlook Republican lawmakers’ policies which lead to the exact same place.
And when Republicans and sensible Dems try to enact anti-fraud measures, they are instantly labeled racists.
The only way to stop the ACORNs of the world are to defeat them, and like a vampire, drive a stake through their hearts. But Marxists, like the Devil, use apathy as their greatest weapon.
I work with people in the Franklin County (Columbus) Ohio board of elections. All this conspiracy crap about fraud in 2004 in Ohio is just that — complete crap.
But I can tell you that since the law has been changed, what I’m seeing here today is rampant fraud. And there’s nothing we can do about it.
All this conspiracy crap about fraud in 2004 in Ohio is just that — complete crap.- McLaren
Not according to Stephen Spoonamore. Maybe Mike Connell can clear a few things up?
I rather like this assessment:
Your Grievance For the Next Four Years: “Voter Fraud
If the Democrats pull this off and win the presidential election, the Republican “noise machine” will not simply give up and devote themselves to charity. They will need to undermine and delegitimize President Obama as much and as loudly as possible, non-stop, for the entirety of his term. Early predecessors of this strategy include claims that John Kennedy stole the 1960 election with Chicago Mayor Richard Daley’s corrupt machine and reminding everyone that Bill Clinton didn’t win a majority of the vote in 1992. But the 2008 version will be even nastier and so much more toxic! Thanks, then, to Roger Stone, old-school GOP Political Operative, for giving us a sneak preview of the complaints you’ll be hearing until 2012:
Democratic voter fraud will be greater this year than in any Presidential election since Mayor Richard Daley stuffed the Chicago ballot boxes for JFK in 1960 while Lyndon Johnson had hundreds of thousands of Texas absentee ballots burned before they could be counted.
ACORN, a left-wing activist group that supports Obama, is literally dragging homeless people, people from drug rehab centers, soup kitchens and women in domestic abuse shelters to the polling places for early voting. In Ohio any warm body can register and vote on the same day-an open invitation for voter fraud.
Yes, Voter Registration Drives are indicative of massive fraud! Homeless people may be humans but that doesn’t mean they should be allowed to vote. Some of them might be immigrants or something!
The conservative obsession with ACORN obsession has already crossed from the wingnuttier right-wing sites to the slightly less wingnutty right-wing sites and soon it’ll be part of the almost-legitimate conversation. With FBI raids of ACORN offices already underway, the very name of the occasionally shady low-income housing community organization will soon become shorthand for the voter fraud that stole the election for Obama.
While Democrats complain of Diebold and voter suppression, Republicans have their terrifying visions of poor black homeless junkies dragged to polling places in exchange for needles. Republican state legislatures have been passing or trying to pass Voter ID laws for years now.
But their campaigns are barely concealed rehashes of the Poll Tax. There’s no epidemic of voter fraud, and, as Slate pointed out in 2006, where there is voter fraud it’s the kind that isn’t stopped by asking everyone to have a birth certificate and drivers’ license.
Regardless! It’s an easy line for people shocked, shocked that 51% of the country likes Barack Obama. And so, just as for four tedious years liberals bitched about how Bush stole the election just because he lost the popular vote, conservatives have already pre-approved their anti-Obama argument. And more power to them! Because it worked so f**king well for us in 2004, right?
http://gawker.com/5061135/your-grievance-for-the-next-four-years-voter-fraud
Ozzie -
You act as if those on the right want to deny U.S. citizens, who are LEGALLY able to vote in a particular precinct, the right to vote. No one on this blog has called for anything like that. No one on this blog would support efforts to deny anyone the right to vote who was responsible and registered according to the rules and showed up on election day in the correct voting place.
I am not only interested in election problems if Republicans are at risk. I am interested in fair elections, regardless of the outcome, because it is the right and just thing to do. If everyone on all sides does not support legitimate registration and voting, we are only damaging ourselves.
In our previous discussion about this, you expressed concern about purges. I explained to you that they are legal and that they serve to keep the voter registration rolls as up-to-date, accurate, and manageable as possible. I said that I would be completely comfortable with some of the suggestions that were made in the report you referenced to ensure that purges were done in a way to minimize the accidental purging of registration records of people who are legally able to vote. These measures also would discourage anyone from purposely purging records, should that be a problem. Your response? You can’t even bring yourself to admit that purges of the records are necessary. I believe you said something along the lines of “just because it is legal does not make it right.” So I guess we are supposed to just keep adding names to these registration rolls, never make any effort to clean them up and ensure their accuracy. And what would the result of that be? Inefficient voter registration processes, inaccuracy, and a greater propensity for voter fraud. Doesn’t that concern you?
Here is my last point. There is DOCUMENTED evidence of voter fraud occurring by ACORN. It’s documented, Ozzie. On paper. You can see the proof. It isn’t one person alleging something, talking about his opinion with no evidence. It’s right there in black and white. In city after city after city. I mean, come on, Ozzie – registering “voters” using the names of the Dallas Cowboys? Unbelievable and yet right there for everyone to see.
And what do you have to say about this? You claim that partisanship is blinding Americans to the “true problem,” and then you go on and spend your entire post talking about “election activists” (who I guess are the only ones who “really care”) who believe that the GOP is going to rig this election just like they (supposedly) did in 2000 and 2004 (although evidence of that is rather . . . scarce).
So who is being partisan?
No offense, but that could be one of the least coherent things I’ve ever read. First, there is no fraud. Then there is clearly fraud. Then Obama must be deligitimized while for 8 years we’ve been treated to “Resident Bush.”
So, when Republicans win, there is fraud. When Dems win, it is because the people are sober, lucid and intelligent. Got it.
So, when Republicans win, there is fraud. When Dems win, it is because the people are sober, lucid and intelligent. Got it.- McLaren
To me, this sentence was key:
“While Democrats complain of Diebold and voter suppression, Republicans have their terrifying visions of poor black homeless junkies dragged to polling places in exchange for needles.”
Once again, for me, it comes down to this: Which party needs to cheat in order to win?
The problem is that there is no voter suppression by Rs. If there was, there would be proof. And Diebold has done nothing illegal — if they had, they would have been charged under a Democrat governor and Sec. of State. And the homeless ARE being registered and are voting in the same day right here in Columbus. I see it with my own eyes. And there is nothing that precludes that same homeless person from re-registering the next day and voting again in another county.
Neither party has to cheat to win. But it seems the Ds have historical muscle-memory when it comes to fraud.
Once again, for me, it comes down to this: Which party needs to cheat in order to win?
Given that once the slaves were freed and radical Republicans up North started providing Constitutional amendments and regular laws to provide for the civil rights of those freed slaves, the Democrat party needed to ensure that the additional black voters in the South couldn’t maintain a Republican majority. ANd they succeeded with the help of such humane organizations as the KKK.
Oz, you don’t even recognize the difference between heroes and villains, between Democrats or Republicans. What makes you think you, Oz, can recognize which party needs to cheat in order to win? You have no conception of what winning means in the first place.
Not according to Stephen Spoonamore.
It’s “not according to Oz’s biased personal interpretations of made up subject texts”.
You’re worried about Communism and socialism and big government under Obama, yet seem A-OK with what has occured under Geroge W. Bush.
Even for a fence sitter like you Oz, that’s an atrocious lie.
THe regular Leftist way to defend themselves against a belief they cannot beat fairly is to first react by attacking your side. So if Book presents evidence of vote tampering by ACORN for Democrats, the Left reacts by saying we have already become a banana republic in 2000.
You see how this works. It is very efficient since you never have to fight on the territory that your enemy has chosen. You never have to defend yourself here, now. You can always talk about the past and given that Democrats are masters of re-writing history to suit their own personal biases, the past favors Democrat debate tactics.
And we wouldn’t be pooh-poohing legitimate concerns about the last two elections.
Partisan concerns created by Democrats are now “legitimate”? As I said, an excellent ability to re-write history according to their own prejudices and delusions.
The problem is that there is no voter suppression by Rs. If there was, there would be proof. And Diebold has done nothing illegal — if they had, they would have been charged under a Democrat governor and Sec. of State- McL
Bush/Rove/GOP Computer Expert Michael Connell Stonewalls Federal Subpoena in Case…
Wed Oct 1, 2008
The GOP’s top computer expert, Michael Connell, CEO of GovTech Solutions, was subpoenaed on September 22nd to testify under oath in a federal lawsuit in Ohio regarding his knowledge of election rigging and vote manipulation in past elections and the upcoming election. Mr. Connell, using the Karl Rove playbook, immediately moved to quash the subpoena and stated that he would not comply because he needs to maintain the confidentiality of his Republican clients. Cliff Arnebeck, the
attorney representing the opposing parties, says that he will quickly move to
“enforce the subpoena.”
Michael Connell, after hiding under the radar for almost two decades as the
GOP’s secret IT weapon for manipulating elections, has now been thrust into
the limelight by other GOP whistleblowers, most notably world renowned
cyber-security expert Stephen Spoonamore, who identified Mr. Connell as the
person with the most intimate knowledge of GOP computer networks including
those in the White House and Congress. Mr. Connell, who has worked for the
Bush political network since 1986, has been at the scene of virtually every
electoral scandal of the past decade — running Florida computers during the
2000 election and Ohio election computers during the 2004 election, helping to
create Swift Boat Veterans for Truth IT network, putting his computer servers
in control of the most sensitive Congressional IT networks, and setting up
Karl Rove’s off grid White House email system used in the firing of the US
Attorneys for political purposes.
for more:
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS164823+01-Oct-2008+PRN20081001
My wife just drove by a hand-made sign on 5th Ave. that said: “Register to Vote Here — Free Barbecue!”
This is illegal as hell. And as she and I used to be Democrats, she immediately recognized the slant of the Party putting on the barbecue. This is why bars were closed until the polls closed.
is very efficient since you never have to fight on the territory that your enemy has chosen. - Ymar
You talk a lot about “the enemy,” Ymar.
This is illegal as hell- McL
There is a LOT of illegal stuff happening, McL, but you think it’s only happening on “the left.”
States’ Actions to Block Voters Appear Illegal
Tens of thousands of eligible voters in at least six swing states have been removed from the rolls or have been blocked from registering in ways that appear to violate federal law, according to a review of state records and Social Security data by The New York Times.. . .
because Democrats have been more aggressive at registering new voters this year, according to state election officials, any heightened screening of new applications may affect their party’s supporters disproportionately. The screening and trimming of voter registration lists in the six states — Colorado, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, Nevada and North Carolina — could also result in problems at the polls on Election Day: people who have been removed from the rolls are likely to show up only to be challenged by political party officials or election workers, resulting in confusion, long lines and heated tempers.
For more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/us/politics/09voting….
My friend who works in the BOE just emailed me about a report they received from same-day voters at Veterans Memorial. Several people reported workers telling voters: “If you want the $20, you have to vote for Obama.”
Exhibit “A”
There is a LOT of illegal stuff happening, McL, but you think it’s only happening on “the left.”
We think it happens where it actually happens. Contrary to people’s self-delusions that it happens on Bush’s side because Al Gore was doing vote tampering and wanted the Supreme Court to rule on an issue that the state and its voters had already decided.
We do not believe in the ‘proof’ presented by Ayers that it is the United States that needs to be destroyed and killed when in fact, Ayers needs to be destroyed and killed for truth and justice to prevail.
States’ Actions to Block Voters Appear Illegal
Since when did the mob or newspaper get to decide what was legal or not just by saying it “appeared” so, Oz? Again, we will solve vote tampering when it actually occurs, not when it is claimed to have occurred by the guilty party themselves.
As Deana has already noted, Oz, you have no interest in resolving real problems and thus you have no credibility in saying Republicans are being too partisan on this issue.
Aside from this report coming from the equivalent of the DNC, it again provides no proof. And if they are being removed, they are being done so by Dems in Ohio. Each county board is made up of an equal number of Rs and Ds and when there is a dispute, it goes to the Sec. of State — in Ohio, that is a Dem.
But as usual, the charge is made, and no proof is shown.
You talk a lot about “the enemy,” Ymar.
Those that ignore war will simply be jacked by war. For as much as you ignore tactics and strategy, you seem to think you can comprehend the tactics and strategy of political campaigns and system hackers.
How is a person who purposefully ignores warfare going to be able to predict actions in a war, Oz? Answer that, if you can.
The Democrats believe Republicans are evil, and the Republicans have already demonstrated what we would do if we found evil people we could smash. We would smash them to the best of our ability. Why would we assume the Democrats would treat us differently than we would treat Saddam and AL Qaeda? If they really believe we are evil, they will act on it, like Ayers. If they say we are evil while knowing that we are not, then they are just liars and corrupt liars at that.
Bush/Rove/GOP Computer Expert Michael Connell Stonewalls Federal Subpoena in Case…
Wed Oct 1, 2008
Your answer to too much partisanship on the part of conservatives or Republicans is to answer back a nihilistic charge of extreme Democrat and Leftist partisanship, Oz.
That’s not a solution. That’s just delusion.
But as usual, the charge is made, and no proof is shown.
When the Main Sewer Media says “it appears to”, what else did you expect? If they had something more solid, they would use it. If they didn’t have something solid and they needed it, they would make it up as they went along.
As Deana has already noted, Oz, you have no interest in resolving real problems and thus you have no credibility in saying Republicans are being too partisan on this issue- Ymar
I’m saying that partisanship is ruining the country and preventing people from looking at the bigger picture - i.e. that democracy is in trouble and that both political parties are riddled with dishonet and corrupt politicians who dont have citizens’ best interests at heart.
Partisan Democrats only see Republican complicity in the current mess, while partisan Republicans only believe Democrats are to blame, while the truth is that both parties are guilty.
But any proof that Republicans are not exactly on the up and up is met with resistance, and you prove my point by considering me “the enemy,” Ymar.
Nobody stops to think of who is getting hurt and who will suffer down the road.
When the Main Sewer Media says “it appears to”, what else did you expect- ymar
Maybe you’d feel compelled to do more of your own research rather than to dismiss things out of hand?
I’m saying that partisanship is ruining the country a
That would mean you are ruining the country for you are just repeating articles that invest wholly in Democrat partisanship on such issues as Rove, the 2000 election, Bush, and so forth.
But logic is not a big topic for consistency with you.
i.e. that democracy is in trouble
So you agree with Book about ‘questioning’ when the Republic will become a banana republic but you want a pro-Democrat partisan solution to the problem so you attack Republican efforts and defend Democrat vote fraud efforts.
That’s consistency for you. But not for me.
But any proof that Republicans are not exactly on the up and up is met with resistance, and you prove my point by considering me “the enemy,” Ymar.
Stop talking about yourself. When Book spoke about Democrat efforts that wern’t on the up and up, she was met with your inconsistent and hypocritical attempt to change the subject and switch it to Republican problems.
Bush/Rove/GOP Computer Expert Michael Connell Stonewalls Federal Subpoena in Case…
Wed Oct 1, 2008
The GOP’s top computer expert, Michael Connell, CEO of GovTech Solutions, was subpoenaed on September 22nd to testify under oath in a federal lawsuit in Ohio regarding his knowledge of election rigging and vote manipulation in past elections and the upcoming election. Mr. Connell, using the Karl Rove playbook, immediately moved to quash the subpoena and stated that he would not comply because he needs to maintain the confidentiality of his Republican clients. Cliff Arnebeck, the
attorney representing the opposing parties, says that he will quickly move to
“enforce the subpoena.”
Michael Connell, after hiding under the radar for almost two decades as the
GOP’s secret IT weapon for manipulating elections, has now been thrust into
the limelight by other GOP whistleblowers, most notably world renowned
cyber-security expert Stephen Spoonamore, who identified Mr. Connell as the
person with the most intimate knowledge of GOP computer networks including
those in the White House and Congress. Mr. Connell, who has worked for the
Bush political network since 1986, has been at the scene of virtually every
electoral scandal of the past decade — running Florida computers during the
2000 election and Ohio election computers during the 2004 election, helping to
create Swift Boat Veterans for Truth IT network, putting his computer servers
in control of the most sensitive Congressional IT networks, and setting up
Karl Rove’s off grid White House email system used in the firing of the US
Attorneys for political purposes.
I’m not sure how much of that you can stuff in your stomach and still call it “while the truth is that both parties are guilty.”
The truth is that you blame one party in order to change the topic when the topic is pointing uncomfortable light on the Democrats and their operations.
Maybe you’d feel compelled to do more of your own research rather than to dismiss things out of hand?
As you mentioned before, “Not according to Stephen Spoonamore. Maybe Mike Connell can clear a few things up?”
My research is my own. Your research is actually Stephen Spoonamore and Connel’s. Which means your research isn’t your own and I have no reason to assume that you are accurately portraying their positions: which includes fairly portraying their positions as well.
Let’s look at your behavior with objectivity, Oz, since you claim to like it so much. Your problem is that partisan Republicans won’t consider that there are vote fraud amongst Republican operators and Democrat partisans won’t consider that there are vote fraud amongst Democrat operators. So your solution is to act like a Democrat and focus on Republican only problems in response to Book’s charges about Democrat vote frauds.
You are the problem you seek to eradicate. How many villages do you think you can destroy before you can save those villages, Oz? How long before you can say you have eliminated partisanship with your partisanship?
Your research is actually Stephen Spoonamore and Connel’s- Ymar
My research is Spoonamore’s and Connell’s?
I posted an article regarding why these two are important to what occured in 2000 and 2004, but it’s clear you have no idea what I’m talking about, Ymar.
That’s just a “Democrat” issue to you, and you cannot get beyond that.
When everything is viewed in a left vs right/conservative vs liberal/ democrats vs republican paradigm, the truth has no chance to shine through.
Is this the election in which we morph from a democracy into a banana republic?-The reality of Book’s title.
First of all, we morphed into a Banana Republic during the 2000 election.-Reality of Oz’s opening Salvo
If we put truth above all, we wouldn’t be asking, ““Is this the election in which we morph from a democracy into a banana republic?”-Oz’s third opening Salvo
Second tertiary reality must be “if we put truth above all, like Oz here, then we wouldn’t be asking when we morphed from a democracy into a banana republic, like Book here, we would already have conclusively stated that we morphed from a democracy into a banana republic with the election of George W. Bush in 2000.”
Stolen elections are a serious matter by any standard, but you can’t only care when you feel that your team is threatened and overlook oddities when your team benefits.-Oz’s third Salvo by summarization
So for the Republicans to correct voter fraud now, we have to accept the oddities the Democrats accused us of doing in 2000 and 2004. Right. That’s bipartisan, alright. Bipartisan suicide.
Oz’s team got threatened when Book questioned Oz’s assumptions about when the US became a banana republic. That meant Oz could now overlook the oddities Book had brought up in order to bring up other issues that would benefit Oz’s claim about 2000. And in order to hammer that point home, obviously Oz had to side with the Democrats, temporarily of course, until voting for Obama, at least. That’s Oz’s way to get the truth. It doesn’t work, of course.
***********
This timeline of claims by Oz wouldn’t convince a beginner student of the Art of War or the Art of Propaganda.
And now this excerpt from the Wall Street Journal:
So for the Republicans to correct voter fraud now, we have to accept the oddities the Democrats accused us of doing in 2000 and 2004. Right. That’s bipartisan, alright. Bipartisan suicide- Ymar
I’m saying that if you thought of yourself as an American, and not a Republican, maybe you would not be so dismissive of what ocurred in 2000 and 2004.
If election fraud only matters when your team is at risk, then you have to understand why people who’ve been paying attention to Clint Curtis’ testimony and to the court case presently being played out in Ohio find that a bit laughable.
Maybe, just maybe, if you thought of yourself as an American and not a Republican, you would see what’s happening to your fellow countrymen as an example of bipartisan failure, rather than just the Democrats’ fault.
I know you can’t see what I’m trying to say.. But maybe one day you will.
I’m saying that if you thought of yourself as an American, and not a Republican, maybe you would not be so dismissive of what ocurred in 2000 and 2004.
In no way am I dismissive of the attempts to defraud voters in America on the part of Gore when he tried to get the military absentee ballots rejected nor am I dismissive of Kerry’s ability to raise the dead.
Maybe, just maybe, if you thought of yourself as an American and not a Republican, you would see what’s happening to your fellow countrymen as an example of bipartisan failure, rather than just the Democrats’ fault.
Bush was already going to tell Gore that he was going to concede the election to Gore. Ah, but Gore set a couple of things in motion and that just didn’t happen after all.
If you thought of yourself as someone interested in the truth and in justice, Oz, you wouldn’t be so cavalier about ACORN right here, right now.
You cannot hide your own problems by projecting them unto me, as if I am the one that raises my political identity higher than my loyalty to America.
Since when have you been loyal to American when she was fighting a war in Iraq rather than raising your own identity as a fence sitter above the interests of both Americans and Iraqis when Petraeus proposed and executed the Surge?
All this suggests we should have a degree of skepticism about claims of a surge in Democratic voter registration. If those voters don’t materialize at the polls, it may be because they never existed to begin with.- McL
I dont doubt that the Democrats engage in voter fraud, McL. What I’m trying to say is that the GOP engages in election fraud, too. And on a massive scale, I migt add..
I can post article after article to make my case, but interesting information has emerged from court testimony in both Florida and Ohio. But attempts to share such information is met with resistence.
But, in conjunction with the header, in an article psoted today, Christopher Hitchens says that yes, American is now a Banana Republic.
America the Banana Republic
The ongoing financial meltdown is just the latest example of a disturbing trend that, to this adoptive American, threatens to put the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave on a par with Zimbabwe, Venezuela, and Equatorial Guinea.
by Christopher Hitchens WEB EXCLUSIVE October 9, 2008
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/10/hitchens200810?currentPage=1
Since when have you been loyal to American when she was fighting a war in Iraq- Ymar
The war in Iraq was and is a mistake. .
It’s another reason we’re in such a mess.
Here’s a flashback, from 2004:
Bin Laden: Goal is to bankrupt U.S.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/
I keep waiting for proof of massive, widespread voter fraud by Republicans.
As for the U.S. being a Banana Republic, if it is it is because the people have allowed corrupt politicians to rob us blind and get the fingers of government into everything from education to home mortgages.
Republicans have demonstrated over and over their ability to prevent loyalty to party from overwhelming loyalty to nation. WWII, Nixon’s concession to Kennedy when he knew the votes were rigged, Bush’s almost quasi concession to Gore when Bush knew, or should have known, Gore’s attempts to defraud the military votes, as well as numerous other Governors and legislators of states like Washington where they, being Republicans, refused to hotly contest an election even though they had just cause to do so. They preferred to keep the nation united rather than start a fight solely to benefit themselves.
This is the party you, Oz, accuse of placing their identity of being Republicans over their identity of being Americans. There’s a reason you aren’t part of this party, Oz, whether directly or indirectly as an ally.
The war in Iraq was and is a mistake. .
It’s another reason we’re in such a mess.
Here’s a flashback, from 2004:
A flash back to Democrat party partisanship will do you no good here, Oz.
I keep waiting for proof of massive, widespread voter fraud by Republicans. - McClaren
I know the drill. I look for articles, post them and then you say, well, it’s from [insert name of publication here] and you dont believe it anyway.
Look up the testimony from Clint Curits and Stephen Spoonamore for starters.
“As for the U.S. being a Banana Republic, if it is it is because the people have allowed corrupt politicians to rob us blind and get the fingers of government into everything from education to home mortgages.” McL
Exacty.
flash back to Democrat party partisanship will do you no good here, Oz.- Ymar
::::sigh::::
Ozzie: It turns out that after looking up “testimony” from Spoonamore, it is very curious. One of the attorneys handling the case for Spoonamore is named Bob Fitrakis. Besides being a long-time “community activist” and Marxist conspiracy theorist, I know him. He lied on a local radio program about my father and his role in a legal opinion offered to government officials. If his client is anything close to the character of Fitrakis, I must say I’ll wait for the verdict by jury.
But I will respect that verdict when it arrives.
I know the drill. I look for articles, post them and then you say, well, it’s from [insert name of publication here] and you dont believe it anyway.
THat’s not proof. That is simply justification. Your justification, somebody else’s justification, whatever. Justification only makes for a solid case, it does not prove anything.
When conservatives talk about proof, we are talking about legal proof. The kind of proof the prosecutor must offer.
And even legal witness testimonies can be discounted by demonstrating bias. It is ridiculously easy to demonstrate that people wanting to stir up shat about 2000 are in the Democrat camp. Especially when the articles you quote talk about “Rovian playbooks”. As if.
If you want to offer justification for why you believe so is so, you should speak about your own personal opinions instead of borrowing other people’s research and pretending that it is your own. It is not your own. If your beliefs mirrored 100% with the articles you wrote, then your problem is one of ideological straightjacket consistency, which is not the same thing as evidence/proof.
Look up the testimony from Clint Curits and Stephen Spoonamore for starters.
Since Spoon is a Republican and erstwhile McCain supporter, as well as a noted specialist in nosing out computer fraud, his testimony is essential–not only for its expertise, but, no less, for the impact that his views will surely have on those Republicans who have been loath to see what Bush & Co. has done to our election system.
That whole story’s just about to break. In fact, tomorrow there will be a number of articles appearing, on a recent breakthrough in the lawsuit that Spoon’s testimony has enabled, and on other aspects of that all-important case.
Spoonamore says that the GOP wanted e-voting to steal elections but now foreign governments will be hacking and the winner will be determined by the best hackers. He says that if the GOP wins the hacking competition, McCain will win 51.2 percent with three electoral votes over Obama, and it will be a stolen election.
Spoon also makes a crucial point about the people who have been implicated in much of the election theft: “They are religious extremists.” He names those who know about stolen elections, and he insists that the only way to protect this election is with paper ballots, hand-counted.
Again, we discount these people not because they are Democrats but because their testimony is unreliable. And there is no reason you have provided that they are reliable.
A person with an axe to grind about religious extremists? He would be in Iraq fighting Islam or in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban, right? But he is here, fighting American church goers? As if.
At the present case, they are only allegations. They are not proven. But you treat them as the gospel, Oz, because they are the gospel, to you. It reinforces your biases, your prejudices, and the things you want to be true.
But I have seen too many examples of propaganda and psychological warfare to be easily taken in by things I either fear to be true or things that I want to be true. You don’t have the same defenses in place. You Don’t event want the same defenses in place.
Stephen doesn’t believe the last two elections were decided correctly. Same as you. You want to talk about going back into the past. Well here’s a clue for the cluebat hitting you in the head, Oz. Most of America’s elections from Day 1 have not been accurately counted nor oftentimes decided according to the actual votes.
For you to start stirring stuff up now, from 2000, is only due to political identity issues. You have just said Republicans are partisan, so what does it matter if Stephen is a Republican or Democrat. He is just as corrupt, potentially, as everybody else in the game.
At the present case, they are only allegations. They are not proven. But you treat them as the gospel, Oz, because they are the gospel, to you. It reinforces your biases, your prejudices, and the things you want to be true.
But I have seen too many examples of propaganda and psychological warfare to be easily taken in by things I either fear to be true or things that I want to be true. You don’t have the same defenses in place. You Don’t event want the same defenses in place.
Stephen doesn’t believe the last two elections were decided correctly. Same as you. You want to talk about going back into the past. Well here’s a clue for the cluebat hitting you in the head, Oz. Most of America’s elections from Day 1 have not been accurately counted nor oftentimes decided according to the actual votes.
For you to start stirring stuff up now, from 2000, is only due to political identity issues. You have just said Republicans are partisan, so what does it matter if Stephen is a Republican or Democrat. He is just as corrupt, potentially, as everybody else in the game.
Look up the testimony from Clint Curits and Stephen Spoonamore for starters.
Since Spoon is a Republican and erstwhile McCain supporter, as well as a noted specialist in nosing out computer fraud, his testimony is essential–not only for its expertise, but, no less, for the impact that his views will surely have on those Republicans who have been loath to see what Bush & Co. has done to our election system.
That whole story’s just about to break. In fact, tomorrow there will be a number of articles appearing, on a recent breakthrough in the lawsuit that Spoon’s testimony has enabled, and on other aspects of that all-important case.
Spoonamore says that the GOP wanted e-voting to steal elections but now foreign governments will be hacking and the winner will be determined by the best hackers. He says that if the GOP wins the hacking competition, McCain will win 51.2 percent with three electoral votes over Obama, and it will be a stolen election.
Spoon also makes a crucial point about the people who have been implicated in much of the election theft: “They are religious extremists.” He names those who know about stolen elections, and he insists that the only way to protect this election is with paper ballots, hand-counted.
Again, we discount these people not because they are Democrats but because their testimony is unreliable. And there is no reason you have provided that they are reliable.
A person with an axe to grind about religious extremists? He would be in Iraq fighting Islam or in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban, right? But he is here, fighting American church goers? As if.
Link
So, how did Rove and Co. manage to screw up the fix in the 2006 elections?
::::sigh::::
Did you then place the importance of America over your own petty desires and prejudices, Oz, when Petraeus presented a plan for victory? Did you take it or did you refuse it and place higher priority on what you wanted, rather than what America needed.
You’re worried about Communism and socialism and big government under Obama, yet seem A-OK with what has occured under Geroge W. Bush.
I said that was a lie that was atrocious even for you and I meant it.
Anyone that has read conservative blogs during the war will already have known very well the problems we had and still have with George W. Bush.
Only a person that is completely ignorant and talking outside their mouth via MoveOn and DailyKos marching orders could say such a thing as you did and be honest about it. I assume you are not such a person, Oz, so that leaves deceit.
Either you know what conservative bloggers and commenters like me have said here and elsewhere about Bush and are lying about how we “seem A-OK” with what has occurred, as if we are partisan hacks that stamp an okay on the party line always, or you are a completely ignorant on the truth.
Since Spoon is a Republican and erstwhile McCain supporter
The truth will out on this issue. But people like you, Oz, won’t be investigating the truth. You’ll just be spooning in whatever Spoon here tells you. Which is far inferior to getting the truth in my eyes.
At the present case, they are only allegations. They are not proven. But you treat them as the gospel, Oz, because they are the gospel, to you. It reinforces your biases, your prejudices, and the things you want to be true.
- Ymar
There is so much out there, Ymar, but you dont want to see it.
I can post article after article and YouTube after YouTube, but you wont beleive it, so why bother?
Just yesterday, students at Rice proved, for the gazillionth time, how easy it is to hack elections
Yes, based on everything I’ve read and everything I’ve seen, I believe that elections have been and will continue to be hacked.
In addition, there have also been numerous articles about the GOP’s role in voter suppression across the country but you only seem to care abut the Democrats’ guilt.
There is so much out there, Ymar, but you dont want to see it.
You assume that if I see it, I’ll immediately convert to your side. The fact that I haven’t would then mean that I haven’t “seen” it, obviously, to you.
But the fact is, regardless of whether electronic voting records can be manipulated with more ease than paper ballots, it is no more an indictment of Republican nor Democrat efforts than saying water is wet. And it is a long way to go from EV-Machine problems to “religious extremists learned high technology to hack into accounts as easily as an Obama operator hacked Palin’s email account”.
I can post article after article and YouTube after YouTube, but you wont beleive it, so why bother?
These people aren’t here to defend themselves or explain their views, so you can bet my BS filters will be on high. If you don’t want to take the time to explain your viewpoint, in your own words, you have no real demand to my time or consideration.
I am either arguing with them personally or I am arguing with you, Oz, personally. But I will refuse to argue against your Legions of Propaganda Operators.
Just yesterday, students at Rice proved, for the gazillionth time, how easy it is to hack elections
That means religious extremists are as fracked up as students at Rice? Wrong.
You have to learn logic, Oz, before you can make logical connections that are actually consistent with itself.
Yes, based on everything I’ve read and everything I’ve seen, I believe that elections have been and will continue to be hacked.
And when people ask you for proof, all you give are the people who convinced you. You don’t provide your own personal reasons why you believe in such things or why such things make ACORN’s activities owned by both Democrat and REpublicans.
In addition, there have also been numerous articles about the GOP’s role in voter suppression across the country but you only seem to care abut the Democrats’ guilt.
When the GOP has to purge rolls of voters that were falsely registered by ACORN, you call that “voter suppression”. Under such standards, anything can be vote fraud if you classify just methods to correct vote fraud as vote fraud.
Found this:
Congressman Boehner calls for defunding of ACORN. Wonder if this will go anywhere?
http://johnboehner.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=104601
Oct 9, 2008
Washington - Congressman John Boehner (R-West Chester) issued the following statement regarding allegations of wide-spread voter fraud in Ohio and at least 15 other states centered around the left-wing group ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform now:
“The latest allegations of voter registration fraud by ACORN are further evidence that this group cannot be trusted with another dollar of the taxpayers’ money.
“Election cycle after election cycle, this organization has been at the forefront of breaking the law in order to promote their left-wing agenda. All the while, they have been the recipients of millions of dollars of federal funding through various federal programs and third-party groups. House Republicans took at stand recently to cut off funding to an ACORN slush fund created by their allies in the House Majority, but now more must be done.[...]
……All federal funding to ACORN must be stopped. The ACORN slush fund must be disbanded. Sources of federal funding through the Department of Housing and Urban Development or any other agency must be stopped. Contracting for services between candidates for federal office and ACORN, as Senator Obama has done, must end. Now that the taxpayers own Fannie Mae, any funding from Fannie Mae’s nonprofit foundation to ACORN must stop.
“ACORN spent decades promoting the housing policies that brought America’s economy to the brink, and similarly over the years has committed fraud on our system of elections, making American voters question the fairness and accuracy of the exercise of their most fundamental right under the Constitution. Now it is time to cut off ACORN before it grows even more destructive.”
NOTE: Since at least 2004, numerous allegations of voter fraud in Ohio have been levied against ACORN. In 2006, a new law was enacted requiring paid voter registration workers to sign their own names on registration forms to make it easier to track individuals involved in fraud. It is a felony in Ohio, punishable by up to 18 months in jail, to forge voter registration forms. [...]
When the GOP has to purge rolls of voters that were falsely registered by ACORN, you call that “voter suppression”. Under such standards, anything can be vote fraud if you classify just methods to correct vote fraud as vote fraud.- Ymar
That’s not what I was referring to, Ymar. There are at least 20 stories a day, chronicling various GOP shenanigans, but you’d have to read them to know what I’m referring to. Anything I post is automatically suspect, so I’m not even going to try.
At this point, I think for McCain to win he has to steal it.
For those of you going on and on about Ayres, while overlooking troubling McCain/Palin connections, I kind of hope he does.
>>Just yesterday, students at Rice proved, for the gazillionth time, how easy it is to hack elections >>
Well maybe. And maybe not. Reading this article, it appears that first they wrote the code for a voting machine, then wrote programs to hack it, then tried to determine if the hacked programs were detectable. They were advanced computer students. It says nothing about a professionally designed program.
http://www.media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=11572&SnID=15998175
Nevertheless, I would prefer that we _not_ have a computer voting system unless there is also a hard copy receipt produced that would verify _how_ I voted…maybe by designation…so that if I wanted proof that I voted for pres and vp, for example, that would be printed on my receipt…
More on his socialist connections…
http://politicallydrunk.blogspot.com/2008/10/2nd-source-confirms-obama-socialist.html
I spent some time thinking about the same things that suek brought up in #55 above.
Guaranteeing that elections are honest would require that I be able to access my vote record to ensure that my vote was correct, and that would violate the sanctity of the secret ballot. Even if my vote were recorded by generic, random-generated numeric id, and “only I knew my numeric id”, the fear is that pressure could be brought to force me to reveal my id to other interested parties.
Short of that, suek’s id that a hard copy be printed that validates her vote selections without tying them to her, would give her satisfaction prior to leaving the polling place that her votes were recorded correctly. (But I doubt we’d be allowed to take the paper with us outside the polling place, due to the same pressure concerns I cited above.)
The paper trail is absolutely critical. Software can be so easily corrupted, and that’s not even considering the honest bug. The main benefits of the paper trail are two:
A. (suek’s) - I can verify the data on the paper before I submit it back to the election supervisors.
B. The count of the full set of paper ballots matches the count of electronic votes AND matches the count of signatures of voters who showed up to vote.
(You still can’t tie any particular person by signature with any particular ballot, so the integrity of the secret ballot is maintained.)
Ooops, one more:
C. The count of votes for each candidate on the paper ballot matches the count of votes for each candidate that was received at “headquarters”, where the county and state total votes are reported.
This says nothing about registration fraud, which requires a wholly different set of solutions. Allowing a vote to be cast at the same time as registration is clearly insupportable, since the validity of the registration cannot occur, and the vote, already made, is irretrievable from the system, because it is secret. I cannot believe Ohio allowed it. It appears the number of votes actually cast were so small that we will fortunately not have to worry about it. How in the WORLD did the Supreme Court ever allow this? (I heard the Supreme Court addressed this and allowed it 5-4. It’s beyond crazy, violating the very integrity of representative government itself.)
At this point, I think for McCain to win he has to steal it.
Thanks for being very clear on this score. I am sure this illuminates many issues for the readers of Bookworm Room.
Nevertheless, I would prefer that we _not_ have a computer voting system unless there is also a hard copy receipt produced that would verify _how_ I voted…maybe by designation…so that if I wanted proof that I voted for pres and vp, for example, that would be printed on my receipt…
There’s nothing preventing people from issuing scantrons so that it can be machine read and fed into a database. Then you would have both a paper backup and a machine code record of a specific, anonymous, scantron sheet. And scanning scantrons would be so much faster than “counting by hand”.
I just want to holler and complain awhile about the content at the link Ozzie provided. I know I’m hollering to the choir, but… I just can’t help it.
Yes, Voter Registration Drives are indicative of massive fraud! Homeless people may be humans but that doesn’t mean they should be allowed to vote. Some of them might be immigrants or something!
What a fricking joke. Any true conservative is fine if every single person votes. (We’d prefer that they spend time informing themselves on the issues and on governing philosophies as well. We’d prefer that they understand this basic flaw of representative government too that leaves us perpetually at risk: A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. )
We like it if immigrants vote. We have a problem with illegal border crossers voting, though! (Too bad you can’t see a difference between the two.)
Who ever said the homeless should not be allowed to vote? I mean, vote once.
The conservative obsession with ACORN obsession has already crossed from the wingnuttier right-wing sites to the slightly less wingnutty right-wing sites and soon it’ll be part of the almost-legitimate conversation. With FBI raids of ACORN offices already underway, the very name of the occasionally shady low-income housing community organization will soon become shorthand for the voter fraud that stole the election for Obama.
An organization with repeated problems with fraud calls its own legitimacy into question. The problem with ACORN is that it pays by quota. A quota of a certain N number of registration cards must be turned in, and they don’t perform any validation on those cards whatsoever. This guarantees fraud. This opens up the system for abuse. And we conservatives get blamed for ACORN’s own systemic faults! Crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy.
While Democrats complain of Diebold and voter suppression, Republicans have their terrifying visions of poor black homeless junkies dragged to polling places in exchange for needles. Republican state legislatures have been passing or trying to pass Voter ID laws for years now.
I have been complaining and warning about Diebold for years. I’ve been complaining about the partisanship that refuses to guarantee the integrity of our voting system. That integrity is crucial, and Democrats in particular won’t admit that they resist ensuring the integrity.
There is nothing wrong with Voter ID laws. You need an ID to drive a car; quite honestly I ask, why not an ID to vote? I love the comparison to the poll fee! Every conservative that agrees with a voter ID also agrees that the ID must be free, and freely available. I would even support sending a postcard to every single address, once each month, that says, “Does everyone at this residence have his or her Voter ID card? It’s free. If you do not have one, please get one! Call this number for help or assistance: XXX-XXX-XXXX.” (The number varies by zip code.)
If ACORN can help the homeless to register, ACORN can help them get voter ID cards too.
Yes, it increases the complexity - a bit. It’s worth it, because it heightens the integrity of our voting system so much so that the slight increase in complexity is worth it. Given the persistent proven fraud by Democrat operatives, we always end up questioning why they resist efforts to increase the integrity.
Hi Ozzie -
I read the Reuters link you provided but it isn’t a news article. It’s a piece sourced by some outfit called The Velvet Revolution. It’s not a Reuters investigative article, Ozzie - it’s from a partisan group. There is nothing wrong with that at all. I guess I’m just looking for evidence and not what people are alleging.
However, I am interested in the NYTimes article you linked to. I clicked on the link but it says that the page is not found. Do you have another link to it?
Look, Ozzie. Let me make this very clear: As an American, I want elections to be fair. I want voter registration to require proof of American citizenship and proof of residence in appropriate precincts. (If you are a felon, sorry, but you forfeited your right to vote.) I want Americans to have to show both their voter registration card and a state-sponsored picture I.D. at the voting booth. If there are inconsistencies between the I.D. and the voter registration card, I want the voter to be able to vote on a conditional ballot, which will be counted once the discrepency is cleared up. This would ensure that the citizen’s vote and voter registration rules are both honored.
All of that being said, Ozzie, I also want voters to feel confident that their votes are being counted. Confidence in the process is paramount and I’d support reasonable, legal measures to promote transparency in the voting process.
But here is the catch: just because your guy doesn’t win does NOT prove the existence of election rigging OR voter fraud. There absolutely has to be evidence. And right now, there is overwhelming evidence of extensive voter fraud by ACORN. There is mounting documentation, Ozzie, NOT someone standing there alleging something, but actual documentation. In black and white. You can see it yourself - see multiple registration forms signed by the same person, see registration forms filled out using the names of the Dallas Cowboy Team players.
In our previous discussion and in this discussion, I have said that I would be willing to support efforts to promote more consistency in the purging of voter registration rolls and willing to take other measures to promote voter confidence. I am willing to meet you part way.
You appear to be unwilling to return the favor. You can’t bring yourself to admit that purging is legal and necessary to ensure that voter registration rolls are accurate, up-to-date, and manageable. You simply say, “just because it’s legal doesn’t make it right.”
You then go on and talk about how Americans are partisan and only interested in voter problems if it affects “their guy.” I think that is a mischaracterization of most Americans - I think most Americans just want to know that only those people who are legally able to vote in certain precincts ARE able to vote in those precincts.
Still, after raging against how terrible partisanship is in America, you then go on and spend all of your efforts on this blog attempting to highlight allegations of GOP efforts at election rigging.
So who is being partisan?
Deana
P.S. - Just so I’m perfectly clear, Ozzie: I know that BOTH parties are fully capable at engaging in election shenanigans. It’s the nature of politics and no one is immune. That is why I support requiring voters to provide increased documentation during the voter registration process to PROVE that they are legally able to vote. It also is why I support efforts to increase transparency during the actual voting process. It helps everyone feel better about the process all the way around.
Can you support both of those things?
There are other people here, Oz, who’ll look into your allegations and your sources. But don’t think links or well written and sourced propaganda pieces are going to be convincing me of anything. You’re talking to me here, not anybody else. And I don’t get convinced by anybody’s propaganda, regardless of how well done it is: Republican or Democrat.
“Voting Fraud” may seem like a real Christ Fundamentalist danger to you, Oz, but I’ve seen far better and far more dangerous uses of covert operations than simply astroturfing. Seen it, analyzed it, had it hit me in the head when I wasn’t paying attention. Sarah Palin may seem like a Real Christian Right Wing threat to you Oz, but when I see a threat it is because I have decided there is one on my own time and on my own research. It will not be because somebody told me that this is how it is or because somebody like you “showed” me what was what and I became magically enlightened at what “else” was going on.
However, I am interested in the NYTimes article you linked to. I clicked on the link but it says that the page is not found. Do you have another link to it?- Deanna
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/us/politics/09voting.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
“There absolutely has to be evidence. . - deanna
Therein lies the rub, Deanna. There is NO evidence when elections are hacked.
“You can’t bring yourself to admit that purging is legal and necessary to ensure that voter registration rolls are accurate, up-to-date, and manageable. You simply say, “just because it’s legal doesn’t make it right.” - Deanna
I do believe that some purging is legal and necessary. But in 2000, Database Technologies removed tens of thousands of eligible voters off Florida’s rolls because they had names or birthdays that were SIMILAR to those of convicted felons.
Eligible voters are being removed via similar purges today.
“In our previous discussion and in this discussion, I have said that I would be willing to support efforts to promote more consistency in the purging of voter registration rolls and willing to take other measures to promote voter confidence. I am willing to meet you part way” - Deanna
That’s what voter rights activists are calling for. It seems only fair.
“You then go on and talk about how Americans are partisan and only interested in voter problems if it affects “their guy.” - Deanna
I’ve been called a “conspiracy theorist” for believing that the vote can be hacked and has been hacked. There is a wealth of information out there about this, but as I said, elections are hacked without any proof. In court testimony, Clint Curtis said that if the resuts differ widely from exit polls, chances are the election was hacked.
That happened in certain counties during the 2004 election, but not in others. And, during the 2000 election, one poll worker in Florida reported on a weird irregularity, as 16,000 votes were taken away from Gore and installed in a third candidate’s column.
It was reported on at the time, but few understood its signifiance.
“Just so I’m perfectly clear, Ozzie: I know that BOTH parties are fully capable at engaging in election shenanigans. It’s the nature of politics and no one is immune- Deanna
Agreed. The Republicans seem to be doing everything they can to prevent students, African Americans and poor people from voting, while the Democrats seem to want to make sure that dead and imaginary people are able to vote.
“Still, after raging against how terrible partisanship is in America, you then go on and spend all of your efforts on this blog attempting to highlight allegations of GOP efforts at election rigging. ” - Deanna
Because the idea that vote fraud and/or election rigging is somehow new in 2008 is insulting to anyone who’s paid attention during the past two presidential elections.
” It helps everyone feel better about the process all the way around.
Can you support both of those things?” Deanna
Absolutely.
“Voting Fraud” may seem like a real Christ Fundamentalist danger to you, Oz, - Ymar
Well, I think the problem goes far beyond Christian Fundamentalists, Ymar. But yes, they’ve been tied to concerns about the voting machines.
Oz, you made the claim some time ago that Rs need to steal elections to win them. Again I’ll ask, how did Rove and Co. manage to screw up the well-oiled fraud machine in the 2006 elections?
Also, Rs have won 7 of the last 10 presidential elections. One of the three D victories came after the sitting president resigned in disgrace, and the other 2 were won with less than 50% of the vote. Now tell us again, who needs to cheat to win?
Again I’ll ask, how did Rove and Co. manage to screw up the well-oiled fraud machine in the 2006 elections?- McL
I didnt read anything about vote rigging in 2006, although in 2002, Georgia appears to have experienced problems.
“Now tell us again, who needs to cheat to win?”
I think in this election, the GOP does.
You dont have to believe anything I say about hacking or steps the GOP is curently taking to try to suppress the youth or African American vote.. You can choose to believe that Republicans are honorable and Democrats are the only ones who apply nefarious methods to win.
Of course you didn’t read anything about fraud in 2006, because your bread landed butter-side up, and Rs don’t typically scream wolf unless there is one.
Sorry, but this is the way things are.
Of course you didn’t read anything about fraud in 2006, because your bread landed butter-side up- McL
Or, maybe there was no need to rig the election in 2006? The Democrats promised the world and could not deliver, which, all things considered, should have been a boon to the GOP in 2008.
President Bush remains an albatross, however, and the McCain campaign has been reduced to playing upon people’s fears and whipping up rage based upon distortions.
But as for my bread landing butter-side-up? I didnt even vote in 2006, as I saw through the Democrats promises and the fact that they could not deliver in any of them.
I’m an Independent with a very pessimistic view of what will become of America.
Very well, I stand corrected on your vote.
However, praying on fear (and ignorance) is the corner-stone of the Left.
Let me count the ways:
Fear of warmongers
Fear of “fooling with” Social Security
Fear of guns
Fear of organized religion
Fear of loss of “reproductive rights”
Fear of “the rich”
Fear of “big oil”
Fear of “big pharmaceutical”
Fear of Wal-Mart
Fear of “Global Warming”
Fear of deforestation
Fear of nuclear power
Fear of coal power
Fear of “out-of-control capitalism”
Fear of Wall Street
Fear of wiretapping terrorists
Fear of confronting Islamofascism
Fear of the military
Fear of “big insurance”
Fear of hydro-power
Fear of geo-thermal power, because after all, “It’s still DRILLING!”
Fear of “outsourcing”
Fear of Israel
Fear of “lobbyists”
Fear of racism
Fear of sexism
Fear of school vouchers
Fear of conservative minorities
Fear of “big timber”
Fear of “big agriculture”
Fear of irradiation
Fear of carbon emmissions
Fear of tax cuts
Fear of “censorship”
Fear of “voter intimidation”
Fear of market competition in health care
Fear of “mega-storms”
Fear of melting ice caps
Fear of SUVs
Fear of “talk-radio”
and if I have time, I’ll listen to an Obama or Biden speech and come up with about 300 more…..
But lastly, Fear of the post WWII commie-conspiracy to flouridize our water for the goal of sapping and impurifying our precious bodily fluids.
Very well, I stand corrected on your vote.
However, praying on fear (and ignorance) is the corner-stone of the Left.
- MCL
Have you been paying attention to the McCain/Palin rallies?
Or did you know about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaG9d_4zij8
Fear of guns- McL
I think there is a legitimate concern that America will become a police state.
At first, this video seems lame, but by the time you get to the end, it’s hard to believe:
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/99433/incredible_documentary_footage_of_mass_arrest_in_st._paul/
If we agree that ACORN is at fault for some percentage of fradulent registration forms, can we also agree that the purge of valid voters from voting rolls is JUST AS BAD? I certainly think so.
ACORN might not be deliberately committing fraud, or in most cases not doing that. It might be simply that the quota payment system - an incredibly stupid idea at best! - simply opens the door to massive fraud. With some, hopefully few, parts of ACORN using this to deliberately commit fraud.
Likewise, government bureaucrats performing voter record purges might simply be as stupid as ACORN. With such an uncontrolled purge process allowing some, hopefully few, government operatives to perform nefarious purges.
Both must cease. Voting integrity is essential to our confidence in our representative government. The instant some bureaucrat somewhere performed a purge that took hundreds of valid voters off the rolls, alarm bells should have gone off.
We must reform this insane voting system of ours. As partisanship skyrockets, if these potential avenues of fraud aren’t corrected, we’ll all suffer.
Ozzie, your side is going to have to compromise if you want to see progress on our side as well (and yes, we’ll have to compromise)
- Voter ID Laws
- Rigorous control of the voter purge process, with checks and balances, ensuring that voter purges from voting lists take multiple people’s actions, and there is penalty for screwing up
- Paper trail for electronic ballots, with significant auditing post-election. Auditing at a statistical percent NOT of high confidence of results, but of EXTREMELY high confidence
The first one requires liberal compromise. The second requires conservative compromise. The third, I think, is non-partisan, or should be.
I think there is a legitimate concern that America will become a police state.
Under an Obama, certainly. When nobody except the police and thugs have the power of the gun, that is always a certainty eventually. Under a McCain-Palin, where even small women pack killing implements and the knowledge in how to use them, a “police state” is far harder to engender.
I do believe that some purging is legal and necessary. But in 2000, Database Technologies removed tens of thousands of eligible voters off Florida’s rolls because they had names or birthdays that were SIMILAR to those of convicted felons.
Given that you said there is no evidence of election hacking. So you’ll make claims that 2000 and 2004 were hacked without evidence and then try to say that there is evidence for the claim you just made about Florida.
Given that you can already make claims without evidence and feel it perfectly just, what’s so different about Florida?
I’ve been called a “conspiracy theorist” for believing that the vote can be hacked and has been hacked.
Given that it takes a Rovian and religious right conspiracy to hack the election to a certain 52.1 whatever percent that Spoon predicted, are you not a conspiracy theorist? You create a conspiracy based upon theories that you openly admit lacks evidence and proof.
In court testimony, Clint Curtis said that if the resuts differ widely from exit polls, chances are the election was hacked.
Chances are that the exit polls were by political hacks. Ever thought of that. If exit polls could tell you who won the election, nobody would need to go to the polls to vote.
Because the idea that vote fraud and/or election rigging is somehow new in 2008 is insulting to anyone who’s paid attention during the past two presidential elections.
It’s not new. But it is happening now, like the people dying in Iraq are happening now. Like they were when the Surge was proposed.
These are things that when they occur at the time that they do, require real solutions and not made up mumbo jumbo complaints about the past.
I didnt read anything about vote rigging in 2006
The propaganda apparatus of the Left probably placed lower priorities on non-Presidential elections. But that would go over your head, Oz.
If all you need to believe something is to read about it, I’m pretty sure the Republicans can fix something up for you to read from Democrats.
You can choose to believe that Republicans are honorable and Democrats are the only ones who apply nefarious methods to win.
Or you can adopt Oz’s nihilist policies and work to undermine any efforts to make things better. Everything has to be negative and screwed up, only Oz holds the solutions and nobody else does. Well, except for the people Oz read that agrees with her.
The Democrats promised the world and could not deliver, which, all things considered, should have been a boon to the GOP in 2008.
Your version of bipartisanship is to make excuses for Democrats, is it. People like you will say token things about Democrats, like paleo-conservatives (David Brin) who vote Obama and say token things about the Democrats as if they are criticizing Democrats to justify not voting Republican.
But when it comes face to face, when a decision needs to be made, your knee jerk response is clear at the top of this thread. You defend Democrats and side line efforts to bring vote fraud to the attention of the American people. Your excuse is that your actions are justified because you’re digging into the past and only by digging into the past can you really solve things. Course, somebody arbitrarily stopped the way back machine at 2000. The 2008 isn’t a thing of the past, Oz. When will you realize that. This is the present and real leaders and problem solvers are always more concerned about present problems than problems that hypothetically occurred in the past. If Petraeus worried about the mistakes of Casey and Bush in Iraq first and foremost, Petraeus could never have conducted the Surge successfully. You have to think of the solution, not complain about the problem.
The Democrats promised the world and could not deliver, which, all things considered, should have been a boon to the GOP in 2008.
Should have been except for Obama? And if the GOP can win just by letting Democrats screw the nation, that means the GOP has to cheat, right? Has to lie and misrepresent the reality because the reality naturally favors screwed up Democrats? Get real, Oz. THis isn’t the world of chaos and anarchy here in America like it is in other screwed up nations under the philosophy of the Obamas and Ozs of the world.
Given that you said there is no evidence of election hacking. So you’ll make claims that 2000 and 2004 were hacked without evidence and then try to say that there is evidence for the claim you just made about Florida.- Ymar
The purging of voter rolls and voting machine hacking are two different things, Ymar, Hacking goes undecteced. But the Database Technologies purge in Florida has been well documented.
Others here seem to understand and share legitmate concerns regarding the process, while I could post article after article, and you’d not see it.
Ozzie, the problem with focusing on the Database Tech. purge in Fla. doesn’t tell the whole story. Voters still were able to vote on a provisional ballot. Those ballots were then checked for validity, and counted if legitimate.
The Dem.-controlled US Civil Rights Commission found not one shred of evidence of Republican voter fraud in Fla. Oddly, they chose to not even investigate the charges against Dems. Go figure!
This will be fun. If Sen. Obama wins I will be able to say every day, “He’s not my pResident.” Every decision he makes I can harp on how he stole the election.
If there is a sense of fraudulence in the electoral process it serves no one, especially the winner. Of course I have noticed that on the left accusation of fraud is evidence of fraud. Given evidence of fraud (ACORN) it is only an accusation.
De(con)struction taken to it’s logical conclusion.
An interesting article concerning Obama and Acorn…
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/10/10/about-acorn-remember-larrys-investigative-report-in-august/#more-5349
This will be fun. If Sen. Obama wins I will be able to say every day, “He’s not my pResident.” Every decision he makes I can harp on how he stole the election- Allen
If Obama is behind in the polls and the exit polls suggest a McCain win, and all of a sudden, out of the blue, we have a President Obama, you might be onto something.
Are the peole at ACORN fixing the polls, too?
But I digress..
Nothing wrong with harping about the election, or criticizing a president’s decisions.. It’s the people who shout “kill him!” and “Traitor!” and “Terrorist!” and “Bomb Obama!” who scare me.
Another Democrat “Brighter Idea”-the Motor Voter Bill or National Voter Registration Act. It seems the Democrats are willing to compromise integrity for votes.
-Cato Institute testimony before congress, 2001
http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-js031401.html
If it is easy for Christian extremists to hack into every computerized voting system and change election results, why not accept the same rational position that ACORN Atheists and Marxists are capable of fixing polls?
Let’s assume the kooks yelling that stuff aren’t Obama campaign plants trying to soil McCain supporters. Imagine they actually wrote plays, books and made movies about the execution of president Obama. Then you would have the mirror image of Bush-bashers. Or, to take it to its logical path, imagine those kooks actually bombed the Pentagon and recruiting centers in protest of an Obama commander-in-chief. Then you would be scared of William Ayers and the anti-war, Bush Derangement Syndrome nuts. Imagine going from words to actual deeds. Then you would have Obama’s pals.
And if you can, please respond to my post about the Democrat-controlled US Civil Rights Commission not finding one shred of evidence of voter fraud or intimidation by Republicans in Fla.
Ozzie -
Thank you for your response (#66).
You know, people would be much more willing to consider your arguments if you were more up front with acknowledging certain things. Even though we discussed this last week, it took you until today to even admit that purging is not only legal, but necessary. It also took you until today to even admit that Democrats are engaging voter fraud.
It also has not gone without notice that you have a tendency to portray the purging of voter registration rolls as something that only the GOP is engaged in for (of course) nefarious purposes.
But Ozzie, I just read the NY Times article that you provided as “proof” of Republicans efforts to deny Democrats the right to vote and even your own source says,
“Tens of thousands of eligible voters in at least six swing states have been removed from the rolls or have been blocked from registering . . . The actions do not seem to be coordinated by one party or the other, nor do they appear to be the result of election officials intentionally breaking rules, but are apparently the result of mistakes in the handling of the registrations and voter files . . . ”
Please read that again, Ozzie.
Even the NY Times (not a friend of Republicans) reports that the removal of these voters was NOT done by one particular party and was NOT done intentionally. But if someone was just listening to you, they wouldn’t come away with that message.
As for the election rigging - Ozzie: in order for you to believe that election rigging is going on, it would require MANY PEOPLE to keep a secret. I’m not going to sit here and assure you that it isn’t going on. I don’t know that. It is something that concerns me, particularly considering that many of the possible solutions to the problem have the potential of causing additional problems. But it isn’t as if only one or two people would be in charge of designing, writing, testing, correcting, retesting, and executing the programs used by the voting machines. Many people would be involved in such a major project and people are rarely good at keeping secrets for long
Again - I’m not saying that it isn’t or can’t happen - it just requires some unlikely human behavior over the long haul. But I do agree that we should be vigilant about the potential for that abuse.
Deana
When I read the info in BrianE and Deana’s posts in 82 and 84, I kept trying to come up with a joke that captures the insanity of our whole voter registration system.
And I kept failing.
So I ended up thinking, let’s put our best and brightest Elite in charge of fixing the entire dysfunctional mess; they’ll surely be able to handle it. Then I took another look at the Elite leadership in our government and financial institutions, and I shuddered. No, better to leave poor enough alone.
Even the NY Times (not a friend of Republicans) reports that the removal of these voters was NOT done by one particular party and was NOT done intentionally. But if someone was just listening to you, they wouldn’t come away with that message.- deanna
That is the New York Time’s assessment, Deanna. Others see it differently.
And while The NYT says these purges “May be illegal,” others are more forceful.
Lawsuit: Georgia Illegally Purges Votes
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/09/cbsnews_investigates/main4512526.shtml
As for the election rigging - Ozzie: in order for you to believe that election rigging is going on, it would require MANY PEOPLE to keep a secret. -Deanna
You would be amazed at the number of whistleblowers who’ve come forward. There is so much out there for those who want to research it.
Everyday there are articles written about this problem from across the political spectrum aimed at other manufacturers besides Diebold.
Like the CBS story, this Forbes.com story was dated yestreday:
http://www.forbes.com/technology/personaltech/2008/10/09/hacking-electronic-voting-tech-security_cx_ag_1010hack.html
Many people would be involved in such a major project and people are rarely good at keeping secrets for long - Deanna
They aren’t keeping secrets, Deanna. Clint Curtis and Stephen Spoonamore are but two of the whistleblowers who’ve testified in court. There are several others as well, though I cant remember their names.
Both Curtis and Spoonamore nail the GOP for this.
The biggest problems seem to have been in Florida in 2000, Gerogia in 2002, and in Ohio in 2004.
I’m going by things I’ve read and testimony I’ve listened to throughout the years, not just one or two news stories.
At first, news was rather sparse on this, but every day there are at least 20 stories that deal with hacking, purging and other problems.
Also from yesterday
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/10/10/voter-registrations-spark-testy-exchange/?mod=googlenews_wsj
As to Ozzie’s statements about stolen voting via electronic voting machines,
I am 100% in agreement with Ozzie on the threat posed by the issue. A verifiable paper trail is absolutely critical.
I’ll repeat my earlier points about the benefits of the paper trail, such that a secret ballot remains a part of the process:
———–
1. The voter must be able to see the paper record prior to it being collected by the vote managers. This validates for the voter that his or her vote was recorded accurately. (It doesn’t validate that the vote was stored or sent to “headquarters” accurately, however.) But this is the first important step.
2. The count of paper ballots must match the count of signatures for people who have voted.
3. Once the voting results are transmitted to “headquarters”, the count of votes for each candidate on the paper ballot must match the reported counts. This can only be verified by audit, and enough money must be supplied so that widespread audits can take place as a matter of course, and should begin that very night by workers where those votes are close to 50%-50%. (Audit procedures have formulae based on Quality Control statistics that have widespread in manufacturing and software.)
————
I don’t accept the fact that such fraud has already occurred without proof. That is actually what’s so diabolical about electronic voting fraud: There won’t be any proof, anywhere! I await Ozzie’s proof that stolen votes have already occurred.
Truth to tell, until the registration and voting process is changed to reflect high reliability and confidence in its integrity, we’ll go through these rounds of fear and accusation every single election year.
don’t accept the fact that such fraud has already occurred without proof. That is actually what’s so diabolical about electronic voting fraud: There won’t be any proof, anywhere! I await Ozzie’s proof that stolen votes have already occurred.- Mike
The best proof we have is what computer scientist are saying, along with testimony from whistleblowers like Stephen Spoonamore, Chris Hood and Clint Curtis.
Curtis said that Florida’s Tom Feeney asked him to explain ways computers might be programmed to steal elections, but that he initially thought that the goal was prevention of election theft. He also testified that if the exit polls differ widely from the election results, then you can bet your bottom dollar that hacking has occured. (This occured in in 2004)
Hood reported that “patches” were installed in Diebold machines in Georgia in 2002, which were supposedly meant to fix clocks, but programmers said that the only reason these patches were instaleld was to switch votes.
And Spoonamore testified that “Man-inthe-middle” intercepts were set up in Ohio in 2004.
Mike Connell is the one common denominator in all of this, but at present, is dodging a subpeana to testify in federal court.
The first time I thought something was odd was back in 2000, when the Washington Post reported that “Something very strange happened on election night” in Volusia County, FL. Al Gore was leading George W. Bush 83,000 votes to 62,000 at one point, but a half hour later, “Gore’s count had dropped by 16,000 votes, while an obscure Socialist candidate had picked up 10,000–all because of a single precinct with only 600 voters.”
Ozzie,
The Chris Hood and Spoonamore stories definitely raise suspicion. Their advocates claim that no major media outlet covered their stories out of fear of lawsuits by Diebold. It’s troubling, for sure, but it does not constitute proof. I repeat my claim that proof will be extraordinarily hard to come by.
The only whistleblower claim that can be fully accepted would be that of someone who has full knowledge of an actual hack whose purpose was to alter votes. Neither of these guys can offer such proof; only the strange midnight end run, and the potential for fraud.
But it is all worrisome to me. In addition, it doesn’t take an end run if the exploitation is already in the system to begin with, though any effort at quality control might detect that. In addition, there is simply the problem of non-nefarious bugs. If you’ve worked in software, you know the problem.
Exit polls are notoriously unreliable. You cannot rely on them in any attempt to raise confidence in the system. Nowhere near good enough.
The verifiable paper trail, along with audits and the money to perform the audits, is the key.
Their advocates claim that no major media outlet covered their stories out of fear of lawsuits by Diebold. It’s troubling, for sure, but it does not constitute proof. I repeat my claim that proof will be extraordinarily hard to come by. - Mike
I agree, which leads to the feeling of unease and distrust by anyone who’s been paying attention.
“The verifiable paper trail, along with audits and the money to perform the audits, is the key.” Mike
Yep. Once again, I agree. Which is why I’m also distrustful of those who say that providing a paper trail is too costly.
Diebold also makes ATM machines.
Can you imagine Americans being OK with ATM machines that didnt provide receipts?
Ozzie -
In one of your earlier comments in this post, you said, “There are at least 20 stories a day, chronicling various GOP shenanigans.” (This from someone who decries partisanship.)
Now you are saying, ” . . . every day there are at least 20 stories that deal with hacking, purging and other problems.”
So let’s do the math: that equals approximately 1,200 stories in the last two months alone that serves as “evidence” of purging and hacking.
Out of all of that supposed evidence, you provide links to three or four of articles or opinion pieces. But with the exception of one link, you cite stories that only address purging, which you now admit is legal and necessary and, according to a source that YOU CHOSE TO USE to supposedly support your claim, is not being done by one particular party and is not being done intentionally. (And if the NY Times does not support your claims, then why did you use it as a source??)
Ozzie - did you even read the article that you use as evidence that hacking has already occurred?
I did. And I noticed something. Again and again, the article mentions:
- POTENTIAL vulnerabilities in the system
- how system vulnerabilities COULD cause voting irregularities
- how system design WOULD make it possible for hacking
- how a hacker COULD infect the memory chips
That is NOT proof that hacking has already occurred, Ozzie. And, as Mike D. pointed out, exit polls that differ from voting results are not proof of hacking.
It would be much more honest and sensible to argue that because of the vulnerabilities in the systems, it is important to support efforts that promote transparency in the voting process so that these vulnerabilities are not exploited. That is why I would be completely comfortable with something like what Mike D. outlined.
The idea that Republicans are the only ones who are engaged in, as you put it, “shenanigans,” is not supported by evidence. In fact, overwhelming documentation exists that proves that left-leaning groups across the country are engaged in voter fraud. Evidence that those on the right are engaged in hacking? Skinny at best.
And yet, you have conservatives on this blog who are more than willing to support efforts that not only reduce voter fraud but also the potential for hacking.
Why do I get the feeling that you are not nearly as enthusiastic about supporting efforts to prevent ACORN-like voter fraud?
“In one of your earlier comments in this post, you said, “There are at least 20 stories a day, chronicling various GOP shenanigans.” (This from someone who decries partisanship.)” — Deanna
I decry the kind of partisanship that prevents people from looking at the bigger picture or investigating anything that goes agsint the “My team is best!” mantra.
I agree that Democrats have engaged in voter fraud, but I believe that the GOP has engaged in election fraud on a much wider scale.
If you want to investigate this, I gave you three names you can look up on YouTube, and I’ll repeat them: Clint Curtis, Stephen Spoonamore and Chris Hood. You can watch interviews with them and hear testimony by them, etc.
You can also look up information regarding Mike Connell and hacked elections.
Ozzie - did you even read the article that you use as evidence that hacking has already occurred? - Deanna
Which article are you referring to? The New York Times article was on purging and I read it, along with articles criticizing it for not going far enough.
Robert Kennedy Jr wil have a piece on this in Rolling Stone next week, but, since he is partisan, I don’t expect you to blindly believe him.
But maybe you can read it and then use the information provided to investigate things for yourself?
I have been reading about this since 2000 and am convinced that elections have been compromised and that the threat to our democracy is very real.
You dont have to believe me or trust me, amd I’m not trying to change your mind.
If you want to see for youself, however, I’ve offered suggestions on places to start.
I decry the kind of partisanship that prevents people from looking at the bigger picture or investigating anything that goes agsint the “My team is best!” mantra.
Substituting Republican and Democrat with your team is no better than what you decry. Just because you portray others as faulty does not make you any better simply because you see others as bad.
Ymar, Hacking goes undecteced.
So we have a demonstrable claim that is unprovable, like I said. You cannot prove it but you believe in it nonetheless. Dan Rather anyone?
The arrogant belief that you and your compatriots have this magical intelligence that allows you to detect the undetectable is no way to solve actual problems. Why? Because you don’t even know what you are doing. You have this vague idea of a problem but you cannot detect it in its details with full out proof. So you just muddle through and talk about election stealing, in general, and call people who don’t agree with you as being partisan.
Others here seem to understand and share legitmate concerns regarding the process, while I could post article after article, and you’d not see it.
Others here are far more tolerant of BS political and propaganda operations than I am. That’s what you don’t see, in addition to evidence of election hacking.
If Obama is behind in the polls and the exit polls suggest a McCain win, and all of a sudden, out of the blue, we have a President Obama, you might be onto something.
People would have to be pretty pathetic to buy into exit polls as the decider of who gets to win an election. Talk about your hive mind bee hive mentality, Oz.
Are the peole at ACORN fixing the polls, too?
Exit polls don’t decide elections, so why should people invest money and time to cheat on them? To maybe convince people like you that Bush didn’t win over Kerry? Not worth it.
Again - I’m not saying that it isn’t or can’t happen - it just requires some unlikely human behavior over the long haul. But I do agree that we should be vigilant about the potential for that abuse.
You cannot be vigilant once you have locked your mind on a personal pet theory and are now required to do everything you can to defend it, like Oz here has done concerning the 2000/2004 elections.
To be “vigilant” means to pay attention for new threats. You cannot do that once you have selected a position that you will have to defend. Then you will be too busy fighting and defending to watch for new threats. Your mind will have closed to new avenues and new data, for if such new things contradict your cherished beliefs, then you must do as Oz did with the New York Times and select what you want to believe and reject what you don’t like.
That is the New York Time’s assessment, Deanna. Others see it differently.
Finally we have a place that Oz differs from her sources. Of course, the differences are only when they refuse to support Oz’s prejudices and statements. Coincidentally.
You would be amazed at the number of whistleblowers who’ve come forward.
You have no idea how to recognize a real whistleblower from a Dan Rather manufactured one, Oz.
I agree that Democrats have engaged in voter fraud, but I believe that the GOP has engaged in election fraud on a much wider scale.
That’s the justification for having biases, prejudices, and what not while calling everybody else partisan, I suppose.
Pure nihilism. The US does the same bad things as Al Qaeda, but since the US has more power than Saddam and Al Qaeda combined, we must fight the US first and foremost.
Oz -
You decry partisanship and then claim that the GOP is engaged in wider election fraud than the Democrats.
When asked for evidence to support your portrayal of Republicans and conservatives as the main participants in voter fraud and hacking, you cite articles and opinion pieces that:
- don’t provide any documentation or hard evidence of your claims, just allegations, OR
- actually state up front that real voting problems are not intentionally being caused by either party.
You clearly expect us to take these sources that aren’t supporting your claims as proof of your claims and when we don’t, you tell us to go out and search the web to find all of this proof that you says exist.
Ozzie, if there really is all of this evidence out there that supports your claims, why can’t you produce it? Surely given the fact that there are “20 stories per day on GOP shenanigans,” you would have ready access to it. You’re the one who has been doing “all of this reading since 2000″ so why do you need to tell us to go do the searching? I would think you would have all of this evidence at your fingerprints but no - we are supposed to go on an expedition hunt ourselves.
I’m not posting on this thread any further. I’ve made my stance clear. In the face of overwhelming documentation that proves that left-leaning individuals and groups are engaged in massive voter fraud, I, as a conservative, am willing to support efforts that strengthen the accuracy of voter registration rolls as well as reduce the chance of vote rigging or hacking, because even though there is no documented evidence that it has occurred, the potential is there and it must be guarded against.
I am willing to do this because I want Americans of all political leanings to feel confident that their vote was counted. I am so thankful for the right to vote, I cherish that right, and I want it to mean something.
Ozzie - do yourself and your country a favor and stop making claims you can’t support. If you are worried about voting machine hacking, then simply say, “Hey - some have made claims that hacking has occured. Computer programming experts believe that the system we have now is vulnerable. Why don’t we support efforts to reduce that potential in the future?” If evidence emerges that proves the claims were correct, then join the rest of us in supporting the prosecution of those who are guilty.
In the meantime, why not join the rest of us in supporting efforts to reduce the number of documented cases of voter fraud? Your arguments will be a lot more credible if you do.
Deana
Ozzie, if there really is all of this evidence out there that supports your claims, why can’t you produce it? - Deanna
Because election rigging can’t be proven, Deanna.
The BEST thing we have is testimony from various whistleblowers and I’ve already directed you where to look. I’ve posted a link to Clint Curtis’ testimony from Dec. 2004, but there are also videos of interviews with Stephen Spoonamore and Chris Hood.
Hacking Democracy, which is curently on HBO, has examples of how elections can be hacked and why it’s impossible to detect.
We only have testimony of people like Clint Curtis, which, as I’ve said, I’ve already posted..
A Lot of weird stuff happened in Florida in 2000 (which I posted one small instance, which was mentioned in the Washington Post immediately afterwards) and in Ohio in 2004 and and a fed court case is currently underway. Mike Connell is dodging a subpeona, but maybe when he testifies, we’ll have more proof.
But I’m guessing that you dont see testimony as proof? I dont know what else you want.
There is a lot happening regarding voter supression and purges, however, and, in addition the the Brennan Center’s recent findings, I provided links of news stories. The New York Times article is beign criticized by voter activists, but it shows, at the very least that purges which “may be illegal” are a concern. I posted another article from CBS regarding a law suit currently underway.
In addition to all of this, students and African Americans are being plied with disinformation.
I can’t list a bunch of links because when I do that, my posts get eaten.
But, as I said, Robert Kennedy Jr has an article coming out next week and promises to lay out the scams currently underway.
I’ll post that as soon as it comes out and, while I dont expect you to blindly believe him, you can get an idea where and how to investigate such concerns even further.
Because election rigging can’t be proven, Deanna.
The BEST thing we have is testimony from various whistleblowers and I’ve already directed you where to look.
Whistleblowers are people who can testify in court as to what they saw going on or what they themselves were doing or ordered to do.
When you say it cannot be proven, you have just ensured that there can be no whistleblowers. No evidence, no eye witness means no whistleblowers. Whistleblowers are valuable because they can testify and be a witness legally.
You cannot have your whistleblower and your “can’t be proven” declamations both, Oz.
A Lot of weird stuff happened in Florida in 2000
This is essentially the summarization of why you believe as you do. This is not even a credibility issue anymore.
But I’m guessing that you dont see testimony as proof? I dont know what else you want.
You don’t need testimony as proof. We need proof as proof. You don’t. You already believe. You are a true believer already, regardless of what comes out in court from now on.
What part about this do you not get, Oz?
Just for the record, here in Franklin County, Ohio, we use computers to vote, at least at my precinct. And there is a paper receipt that is printed and given to each voter, as well as a record that is kept by the Board of Elections.
McLaren,
Do they really offer a paper receipt to the voter to take with them? I’m surprised by that part.
I personally think it’s a good idea, especially if there is an anonymous “ballot ID” where you can look up your vote as registered at headquarters to ensure it made it all the way through with integrity. But there are a lot of secret-ballot voting theorists who think that allowing any sort of paper trail per voter leaves them open to intimidation.
Yes Mike, we are offered a copy at the poll. And there is a ballot ID as well. But there’s the rub, right?