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	<title>Comments on: Getting past the personalities *UPDATED*</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/10/20/getting-past-the-personalities/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/10/20/getting-past-the-personalities/</link>
	<description>Conservatives deal with facts and reach conclusions; liberals have conclusions and sell them as facts.</description>
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		<title>By: BrianE</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/10/20/getting-past-the-personalities/comment-page-1/#comment-31992</link>
		<dc:creator>BrianE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 01:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=4283#comment-31992</guid>
		<description>LOL</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Devx</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/10/20/getting-past-the-personalities/comment-page-1/#comment-31990</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Devx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 01:47:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=4283#comment-31990</guid>
		<description>I want to enact redlining legislation on Whole Foods Markets.  We can sue &#039;em over and over until they open as many stores in poverty-stricken urban zones as they have in the trendier zip codes.  Threaten them with fines.  Crowd the checkout lanes with loud protests and shut down all activity until their managers submit.

Aragula For All!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to enact redlining legislation on Whole Foods Markets.  We can sue &#8216;em over and over until they open as many stores in poverty-stricken urban zones as they have in the trendier zip codes.  Threaten them with fines.  Crowd the checkout lanes with loud protests and shut down all activity until their managers submit.</p>
<p>Aragula For All!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: BrianE</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/10/20/getting-past-the-personalities/comment-page-1/#comment-31972</link>
		<dc:creator>BrianE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=4283#comment-31972</guid>
		<description>I would ask the question, if health care is a right, is good health a responsibility? Liberals have tried for the last 75 years to remove the effect of consequences with limited success.
Since liberals are driven by a sense of fairness, it seems patently unfair to unduly penalize healthy, wealthy Americans though.
So it would seem obvious that we should divide the country into four segments—poor and unhealthy, poor and healthy, wealthy and unhealthy and wealthy and healthy. The unhealthy poor should receive a level of health care slightly below the healthy poor, since we want to create an incentive for the unhealthy to improve their health and move up to the status of healthy poor, where they would receive good health care, at minimal cost. 
On the other end of the scale, the unhealthy, wealthy should pay the most, again with the incentive that improving their health would result in a slight reduction of their costs. 
Rather than just put this money into the general pool of tax revenue, it should be treated like social security, in a separate account—or like the highway tax or the tobacco settlement that was to go to pay the increased health costs of unhealthy smokers.
Now we all know this proposal would never be acceptable to the Left, since it still smacks of rewarding or penalizing consequences.
Instead, we need to see more of healthy fairness initiatives. People too fat—outlaw fatty food. Of course, we can’t do that—so let’s just make fat food very, very expensive, like we have tobacco. In fact, let’s just tax the fat content in food and put that in our health care fund. McDonalds wants to offer a super-sized menu?  Let’s tax the fat content of food at the checkout counter. Each meal could have a maximum fat content of xx grams. Any combination of food order that exceeds the maximum would have a fat surcharge applied.
Let’s move to risky behavior. Skiing is a fairly risky sport with higher than average injuries. In fact, we could create a commission to rate all the sport activities and then charge a tax for each activity based on its relative risk.
Do you see the possibilities. We could do this to every area of society!
How about rewarding good healthy behavior, like exercise. Tax credits for walking a certain distance each year—provable by GPS trackers we could buy from the government (poor people would be given the trackers and would result in a negative tax consequence (not to be confused with welfare)).
As you can see, with some creativity—we can easily fund free health care. Think of this as alternative energy for the body. Think of the millions of jobs this could create. Why, it could provide a new source of wealth in this country! A kind of green revolution for the soul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would ask the question, if health care is a right, is good health a responsibility? Liberals have tried for the last 75 years to remove the effect of consequences with limited success.<br />
Since liberals are driven by a sense of fairness, it seems patently unfair to unduly penalize healthy, wealthy Americans though.<br />
So it would seem obvious that we should divide the country into four segments—poor and unhealthy, poor and healthy, wealthy and unhealthy and wealthy and healthy. The unhealthy poor should receive a level of health care slightly below the healthy poor, since we want to create an incentive for the unhealthy to improve their health and move up to the status of healthy poor, where they would receive good health care, at minimal cost.<br />
On the other end of the scale, the unhealthy, wealthy should pay the most, again with the incentive that improving their health would result in a slight reduction of their costs.<br />
Rather than just put this money into the general pool of tax revenue, it should be treated like social security, in a separate account—or like the highway tax or the tobacco settlement that was to go to pay the increased health costs of unhealthy smokers.<br />
Now we all know this proposal would never be acceptable to the Left, since it still smacks of rewarding or penalizing consequences.<br />
Instead, we need to see more of healthy fairness initiatives. People too fat—outlaw fatty food. Of course, we can’t do that—so let’s just make fat food very, very expensive, like we have tobacco. In fact, let’s just tax the fat content in food and put that in our health care fund. McDonalds wants to offer a super-sized menu?  Let’s tax the fat content of food at the checkout counter. Each meal could have a maximum fat content of xx grams. Any combination of food order that exceeds the maximum would have a fat surcharge applied.<br />
Let’s move to risky behavior. Skiing is a fairly risky sport with higher than average injuries. In fact, we could create a commission to rate all the sport activities and then charge a tax for each activity based on its relative risk.<br />
Do you see the possibilities. We could do this to every area of society!<br />
How about rewarding good healthy behavior, like exercise. Tax credits for walking a certain distance each year—provable by GPS trackers we could buy from the government (poor people would be given the trackers and would result in a negative tax consequence (not to be confused with welfare)).<br />
As you can see, with some creativity—we can easily fund free health care. Think of this as alternative energy for the body. Think of the millions of jobs this could create. Why, it could provide a new source of wealth in this country! A kind of green revolution for the soul.</p>
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		<title>By: suek</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/10/20/getting-past-the-personalities/comment-page-1/#comment-31955</link>
		<dc:creator>suek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=4283#comment-31955</guid>
		<description>Yeah Mike...keep it up and we&#039;ll have to visit _your_ blog!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah Mike&#8230;keep it up and we&#8217;ll have to visit _your_ blog!</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Devx</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/10/20/getting-past-the-personalities/comment-page-1/#comment-31953</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Devx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=4283#comment-31953</guid>
		<description>suek,
Guilty as charged!  Sigh.  I nominate that post as &quot;Word Vomit of the Month&quot;.
There might be something worthwhile in there.  After I reduce its size by 9/10, maybe I&#039;ll find it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>suek,<br />
Guilty as charged!  Sigh.  I nominate that post as &#8220;Word Vomit of the Month&#8221;.<br />
There might be something worthwhile in there.  After I reduce its size by 9/10, maybe I&#8217;ll find it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: suek</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/10/20/getting-past-the-personalities/comment-page-1/#comment-31952</link>
		<dc:creator>suek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:34:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=4283#comment-31952</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt;I’ll try to keep mine short as well.&gt;&gt;

Heh.  You didn&#039;t.

Still...it was a good one...worth your time!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;I’ll try to keep mine short as well.&gt;&gt;</p>
<p>Heh.  You didn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Still&#8230;it was a good one&#8230;worth your time!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: The Bookworm Manifesto &#171; lookingforlissa</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/10/20/getting-past-the-personalities/comment-page-1/#comment-31947</link>
		<dc:creator>The Bookworm Manifesto &#171; lookingforlissa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=4283#comment-31947</guid>
		<description>[...] by Lissa on October 21, 2008  I think I&#8217;ll print this out and bring it to my next family get-together.  Bookworm does what I *wish* I could do, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by Lissa on October 21, 2008  I think I&#8217;ll print this out and bring it to my next family get-together.  Bookworm does what I *wish* I could do, [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Danny Lemieux</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/10/20/getting-past-the-personalities/comment-page-1/#comment-31945</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny Lemieux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=4283#comment-31945</guid>
		<description>The problem with your post, Book, is that it is far, far too logical. Like the song (
&quot;Wonderful World&quot; by Sam Cooke) goes, &quot;don&#039;t know much about history...&quot;. Come to think of it, it could be the anthem for Obama World.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with your post, Book, is that it is far, far too logical. Like the song (<br />
&#8220;Wonderful World&#8221; by Sam Cooke) goes, &#8220;don&#8217;t know much about history&#8230;&#8221;. Come to think of it, it could be the anthem for Obama World.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gorgasal</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/10/20/getting-past-the-personalities/comment-page-1/#comment-31943</link>
		<dc:creator>Gorgasal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=4283#comment-31943</guid>
		<description>Book: nice post.

Re medicine, a little anecdotal evidence from Germany: as the hours are brutal (as everywhere in medicine) and as the pay is ridiculous, all young doctors that can do so try to move to Switzerland, where the system is still far more privatized than in Germany. It&#039;s come so far that the Swiss health care system is basically run by Germans.

On the other hand, what do German politicians do to stem the recent cost explosion in the health care system? That&#039;s right: more government interventions, less choice, less competition, higher insurance premiums. Dumb as stumps here, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Book: nice post.</p>
<p>Re medicine, a little anecdotal evidence from Germany: as the hours are brutal (as everywhere in medicine) and as the pay is ridiculous, all young doctors that can do so try to move to Switzerland, where the system is still far more privatized than in Germany. It&#8217;s come so far that the Swiss health care system is basically run by Germans.</p>
<p>On the other hand, what do German politicians do to stem the recent cost explosion in the health care system? That&#8217;s right: more government interventions, less choice, less competition, higher insurance premiums. Dumb as stumps here, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Devx</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2008/10/20/getting-past-the-personalities/comment-page-1/#comment-31942</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Devx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 05:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=4283#comment-31942</guid>
		<description>Book,
This is a long, heavy and worthwhile post!  Many possible worthwhile comments; I&#039;ll try to keep  mine short as well.

My general response: How can you guarantee something that cannot be guaranteed?  The answer is, you can&#039;t.  Our Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, were limits placed on government power; they were restrictive.  The Modern Perspective, often called &#039;The Second Bill Of Rights&#039;, are attempts to guarantee the delivery of services that simply cannot be guaranteed.  Even were the government efficient, noble and wise - but the seat of power is rarely or never any of these, and tends constantly to corruption.

Medicine:
&gt; Even in the good times, though, something interesting happened:  the quality of the doctors slipped. 

This is the law of unintended consequences, and it is a damning law.  Also, it cannot be avoided; there is no way around it.  If your leaders must be preternaturally wise and good for something to work, it is guaranteed that it will not work.

&gt; Even the forms aren’t the biggest problem, though.  The biggest problem (and I have good information on this owing to contacts in my life) is regulations.

Streamlined regulations can certainly help.  A lot. However, there are medical services that simply cost a lot of money, as well - even if you think of it as &quot;Quality of Service&quot;.  Does every amputee get the most recent and highest quality replacement artificial leg, the one that costs $7.2 million?  Any service beyond the basics is going to be rationed one way or another.   I don&#039;t think there is any way around that irrefutable fact, no matter how unpleasant it may be.

Barack Obama has said he wants the Phillies to win the World Series, and Tampa Bay to win the World Series.  Promise everyone everything.  In services, he&#039;s doing the same thing, promising everything to everyone, and so far it&#039;s working.  Until we become adult about these hard choices, I don&#039;t know what happens.  For me personally, I see gradations of insurance levels separated by cost as the only possible solution to the problem.

Welfare:
&gt; Second, economic freedom has to be balanced with charity and mercy. 

This point applies to health and welfare.  &quot;Charity and mercy&quot; have no meaning when income is seized and forcibly redistributed.  I like to use the phrase &quot;siezed at the point of the government gun&quot;, and while in a way that&#039;s an analogy, but in truth it is real.  At its core government is enforced POWER.

I believe in the safety net to catch people on the way down, and support them for a very short time, while they recover from the fall.  Especially in the case of welfare, it must *never* be allowed to foster generational dependency.  Even FDR warned repeatedly and soberly about this.  It&#039;s catastrophic to do so.

Crime:
The biggest fallacy here is that the police exist to protect you.  They can&#039;t (except by pure luck of timing).  Self-defense is the sole choice of the individual.  The police actually exist 1. to enforce the law and 2. to investigate crimes after they have occurred.   The first of these provides disincentive to break the law, reducing crime.  The second hopefully prevents criminals from repeating crimes by removing from them their freedom.  I suppose we could argue about rehabilitation, but I don&#039;t think our social sciences are up to any rigorous approach yet for deliberately fostering rehab; and right now it seems a fortunate dawning within the criminal soul that sometimes turns them away from crime.  Something at least worth hoping for.  (So let&#039;s *not* brutalize the criminals when they&#039;re in jail, seems like a good idea to me.  I&#039;m referring to gang-run jails, random violence and rapes.)

In the end, to me, it&#039;s all about equality of opportunity vs equality of results.  We&#039;re all best served by striving endlessly for the first of these.  Any attempt to guarantee the second will always end in disaster eventually, in one form or another.   Sometimes I think we give lip service to equality of opportunity (ie, &quot;education is the great equalizer of opportunity&quot;, while our schools fail all around us and we don&#039;t care as long as certain classes of people have their prerogatives protected (Democrat-style) or as long as my neighborhood schools are guaranteed better than yours, ensuring that in fact there is no possible equality of opportunity (Republican-style).  If we&#039;re going to say that we absolutely believe in equality of opportunity, especially relying on it as our rejection of equality of results, we ought to unfailingly back it up as a matter of critical principle.

I also think some forms of limited regulation and oversight will always be beneficial, and we&#039;d best focus on checks and balances of every sort possible to prevent corruption.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Book,<br />
This is a long, heavy and worthwhile post!  Many possible worthwhile comments; I&#8217;ll try to keep  mine short as well.</p>
<p>My general response: How can you guarantee something that cannot be guaranteed?  The answer is, you can&#8217;t.  Our Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, were limits placed on government power; they were restrictive.  The Modern Perspective, often called &#8216;The Second Bill Of Rights&#8217;, are attempts to guarantee the delivery of services that simply cannot be guaranteed.  Even were the government efficient, noble and wise &#8211; but the seat of power is rarely or never any of these, and tends constantly to corruption.</p>
<p>Medicine:<br />
&gt; Even in the good times, though, something interesting happened:  the quality of the doctors slipped. </p>
<p>This is the law of unintended consequences, and it is a damning law.  Also, it cannot be avoided; there is no way around it.  If your leaders must be preternaturally wise and good for something to work, it is guaranteed that it will not work.</p>
<p>&gt; Even the forms aren’t the biggest problem, though.  The biggest problem (and I have good information on this owing to contacts in my life) is regulations.</p>
<p>Streamlined regulations can certainly help.  A lot. However, there are medical services that simply cost a lot of money, as well &#8211; even if you think of it as &#8220;Quality of Service&#8221;.  Does every amputee get the most recent and highest quality replacement artificial leg, the one that costs $7.2 million?  Any service beyond the basics is going to be rationed one way or another.   I don&#8217;t think there is any way around that irrefutable fact, no matter how unpleasant it may be.</p>
<p>Barack Obama has said he wants the Phillies to win the World Series, and Tampa Bay to win the World Series.  Promise everyone everything.  In services, he&#8217;s doing the same thing, promising everything to everyone, and so far it&#8217;s working.  Until we become adult about these hard choices, I don&#8217;t know what happens.  For me personally, I see gradations of insurance levels separated by cost as the only possible solution to the problem.</p>
<p>Welfare:<br />
&gt; Second, economic freedom has to be balanced with charity and mercy. </p>
<p>This point applies to health and welfare.  &#8220;Charity and mercy&#8221; have no meaning when income is seized and forcibly redistributed.  I like to use the phrase &#8220;siezed at the point of the government gun&#8221;, and while in a way that&#8217;s an analogy, but in truth it is real.  At its core government is enforced POWER.</p>
<p>I believe in the safety net to catch people on the way down, and support them for a very short time, while they recover from the fall.  Especially in the case of welfare, it must *never* be allowed to foster generational dependency.  Even FDR warned repeatedly and soberly about this.  It&#8217;s catastrophic to do so.</p>
<p>Crime:<br />
The biggest fallacy here is that the police exist to protect you.  They can&#8217;t (except by pure luck of timing).  Self-defense is the sole choice of the individual.  The police actually exist 1. to enforce the law and 2. to investigate crimes after they have occurred.   The first of these provides disincentive to break the law, reducing crime.  The second hopefully prevents criminals from repeating crimes by removing from them their freedom.  I suppose we could argue about rehabilitation, but I don&#8217;t think our social sciences are up to any rigorous approach yet for deliberately fostering rehab; and right now it seems a fortunate dawning within the criminal soul that sometimes turns them away from crime.  Something at least worth hoping for.  (So let&#8217;s *not* brutalize the criminals when they&#8217;re in jail, seems like a good idea to me.  I&#8217;m referring to gang-run jails, random violence and rapes.)</p>
<p>In the end, to me, it&#8217;s all about equality of opportunity vs equality of results.  We&#8217;re all best served by striving endlessly for the first of these.  Any attempt to guarantee the second will always end in disaster eventually, in one form or another.   Sometimes I think we give lip service to equality of opportunity (ie, &#8220;education is the great equalizer of opportunity&#8221;, while our schools fail all around us and we don&#8217;t care as long as certain classes of people have their prerogatives protected (Democrat-style) or as long as my neighborhood schools are guaranteed better than yours, ensuring that in fact there is no possible equality of opportunity (Republican-style).  If we&#8217;re going to say that we absolutely believe in equality of opportunity, especially relying on it as our rejection of equality of results, we ought to unfailingly back it up as a matter of critical principle.</p>
<p>I also think some forms of limited regulation and oversight will always be beneficial, and we&#8217;d best focus on checks and balances of every sort possible to prevent corruption.</p>
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