Another reason conservatives are a bit shy here
Bookworm on Nov 02 2008 at 5:57 pm | Filed under: Uncategorized
There are fringe people on the Right who threaten liberals. The problem is that, on the Left, they’re not the fringe: A talk show host for a major San Francisco Bay Area radio station recently announced that he wants to see Joe the Plumber killed. That does not make conservatives feel as if they’re living in the land of rational discourse.
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“Rational discourse?”
Isn’t that how a New Jersey housewife during World War II responded to the question, “Hon, did the meat dish need any coupons?”
Otherwise, I haven’t seen any here.
Speaking over the airwaves, Glenn Beck and Michael Reagan both advocated shooting people they disagree. Kathleen Parker included a quote by a military man who advocated lining up liberals and shooting them (but later tried to replace “shoot” with “slap.”).
And, while he didnt advocating shoting anyone, on the eve of war in Iraq, Michael Savage said that those who were against the war should be rounded up and placed in camps.
For more on hate radio:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09122008/watch.html
I’ve concluded I’ve stopped living in the land of rational discourse quite some time ago. I don’t expect to live in it again in my lifetime. I’m sure people ever were that rational. The Age of Reason might have been distinguished by its absence. To borrow a metaphor from an old Fifties Sci Fi movie I saw for the umpteenth time over this weekend, we’re all one brain boost away from releasing monsters from the id.
This threat against Joe the Plumber is simply unbelievable.
He is not a politician. He was just an average citizen who asked one policy question – a simple question about taxes.
And now they are talking about killing him?
How weak do you have to be to be threatened by a man asking a tax-policy question?
Jeesh.
Deana
He is not a politician. He was just an average citizen who asked one policy question – a simple question about taxes.
And now they are talking about killing him?- Deanna
The right wing hate mongers are talking about killing regular citizens, too.
If people persist in believing that only one side does it, they’ll continue to only see the sins of the opposition, as America regresses even further.
Once again, I agree with Zhombre.
Ozzie –
I’m not arguing this with you. Bookworm did not state that only those on the left do this sort of thing. Her point is that these types of threats seem to come from people who are not on the fringe.
I know you like to portray yourself as a paragon of objectivity but you are not. You’ve demonstrated that sufficiently here.
Deana
I know you like to portray yourself as a paragon of objectivity but you are not. You’ve demonstrated that sufficiently here.
Deana
Because of stolen election concerns? I’ve looked at the evidence and if you can show me where voter fraud has occured, either through solid evidence or court testimony, I’ll look at it again.
So far, with ACORN, all I see is voter registration fraud, which does not change the outcome of elections.
those who have testified regarding 2000 and 2004 have said that the elections were stolen in favor of the GOP.
The Wall Street Journal featured an op-ed from activists both sides of this issue, and, from where I sit, the proof still stands.
And, in related news, Mike Connell is being forced to testify in federal court today.
“There are fringe people on the Right who threaten liberals. The problem is that, on the Left, they’re not the fringe: A talk show host for a major San Francisco Bay Area radio station recently announced that he wants to see Joe the Plumber killed. That does not make conservatives feel as if they’re living in the land of rational discourse.” Bookworm
” Bookworm did not state that only those on the left do this sort of thing. Her point is that these types of threats seem to come from people who are not on the fringe.- Deanna
My point is that there are talk show hosts like Glenn Beck and Michael Reagan who have issued the same threats against citizens, too. They, too, are radio hosts with major stations. It’s not just coming from the fringe.
“I know you like to portray yourself as a paragon of objectivity but you are not. You’ve demonstrated that sufficiently here. – Deana
I value real Conservatives, such as those who defend the U.S. Constitution, but feel that those who have backed and applauded George W. Bush and Dick Cheney have actually applauded the death of the Republic.
I also urge Americans to look at the bigger picture, and if you distrust Democrats. listen to those on the Right who care more about America than they do about political parties.
One of the Best Speeches ever:
On June 8, 2008, Bruce Fein delivered the following speech, “From Checks and Balances to Executive Despotism,” to the second Future of Freedom Foundation conference, “Restoring the Republic,” held in Reston, Virginia.
Bruce Fein commands impressive experience and influence in the corridors of both national and international power. He graduated from Harvard Law School with honors in 1972. After a coveted federal judicial clerkship, he joined the U.S. Department of Justice where he served as assistant director of the Office of Legal Policy, legal adviser to the assistant attorney general for antitrust, and the associate deputy attorney general. Mr. Fein then was appointed general counsel of the Federal Communications Commission, followed by an appointment as research director for the Joint Congressional Committee on Covert Arms Sales to Iran. He recently served on the American Bar Association’s Task Force on Presidential signing statements. He is a columnist for the Washington Times.
http://www.antiwar.com/fein-fff.php
>>So far, with ACORN, all I see is voter registration fraud, which does not change the outcome of elections.>>
Oh sure. Let’s see now…how many years has ACORN been registering voters? how many fraudulent registrations have they paid for? and you think it’s just “individual” fraud? ACORN is the victim? no fraudulent votes as a result? I think you can’t see the nose on your face if you believe that.
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=5FF874F9-18FE-70B2-A89977D364B3A669
>>My point is that there are talk show hosts like Glenn Beck and Michael Reagan who have issued the same threats against citizens, too. They, too, are radio hosts with major stations. It’s not just coming from the fringe.>>
So you say. Proof, please?
Ozzie,
Your comments on balance of powers could use a little more balance.
I’d be a little more supportive of your position if you also included discussions on abuse of judicial power (despite 20 years of searching, I still can’t seem to see that emanation of a penumbra…) or legislative power (is there anything that Congress does that actually falls within their delegated powers?).
An imperial court, led by a Stevens-like judicial activist sitting for 20 years, frightens me far more than a President we can kick out in four years.
Oh sure. Let’s see now…how many years has ACORN been registering voters? how many fraudulent registrations have they paid for? and you think it’s just “individual” fraud? ACORN is the victim? no fraudulent votes as a result? I think you can’t see the nose on your face if you believe that.- suek
I’m not denying that voter registration has occured, what I want is proof that these fraudulent voters actually appeared and cast votes.
The DOJ has been hounding federal attorneys to look into such cases for years, with U.S attorneys being fired when they could not find prosecutable cases.
I’m asking for proof that voter fraud, not voter registration fraud, has occured.
In four years, the DOJ successfully prosecuted 82 cases, and not a single one involved phony voters showing up to vote.
I dont doubt that you can show me that voter registration fraud has occured.
I’m looking for proof that voter fraud has occured, with phony people risking felony charges to actually cast a vote and change the outcome of elections.*
* I dont doubt that this happened in the 1960s, mind you, but there is no proof of widespread voter fraud in recent elections.
So you say. Proof, please?- suek
I already supplied a link which includes these and other right wing radio rants, but here goes:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09122008/watch.html
“The right wing hate mongers are talking about killing regular citizens, too.”- Ozzie
“Bruce Fein”- Ozzie
Is that the Bruce Fein that wanted to impeach Cheney? Based on the authors you read like Naomi Wolf and Bill Moyer, and the magazines you cite like Rolling Stone, I’m beginning to understand what forms your political opinions.
You need some balance.
Ozzie it must be hard living such a depressed life, where there is nothing in your future from the left or the right but corruption and hate and death.
>>The right wing hate mongers are talking about killing regular citizens, too.>>
Went to your link. Agreed that much of what was said was extreme – I don’t listen to Savage – he _is_ savage. Nevertheless, there is a difference – other than the “I’d like to shoot Michael Moore” line, all the “threats” were against a category of people…in the one case traitors. In another gays. The third was illegal immigrants. They were not specific targeted threats. Even the Michael Moore threat was not exactly a threat but rather a musing sort of “if I could do it, how should I do it” – not a genuine threat. Savage didn’t actually threaten gays – he just wished evil on them.
The threats against Joe have been specific – and the man has done nothing at all but ask a question that Obama answered. It was the answer that people didn’t like that has triggered the violent response. That’s not rational behavior.
“I’m sure he (Obama) has changed his position. All politicians do, though John McCain’s track record appears to be worse than most.”-Ozzie
“I used to like and admire John McCain.”- Ozzie
Ozzie is conflicted.
One more thing…
I was down in the Bay Area yesterday for a family event (I actually drove up into Marin County briefly – the few times I’m down there I like to cross the bridge and breathe some eucalyptus scented air… it stirs memories of my youth).
During this event, I heard a Prop 8 activist say the following: ‘No matter what happens on Tuesday, gay marriage is going to STAY legal!”. The 100 or so people there murmured approvingly, some applauding lightly.
Let’s parse that out. If the PEOPLE of the State of California amend their CONSTITUTION to define marriage as being between a man and a woman, it won’t matter. That can mean two things – either an attempt at civil disobedience or a complete lack of knowledge regarding the governmental process and the meaning of the rule of law. Either way, a depressing confirmation of Book’s thesis.
By the way, I was surprised at the lack of an overwhelming number of Obama bumper stickers/yard signs. I spent a good portion of the day driving through the belly of the beast, from Palo Alto up to the city itself, and saw fewer than 10 cars with Obama bumper stickers. Not many yard signs in windows either. I expected to come home with the pretentious Obama sun image burned into my retinas. I even saw 3 McCain bumber stickers on cars in San Francisco itself.
Frankly, I was amazed. It’s MUCH worse up here in Seattle!
Ozzie it must be hard living such a depressed life, where there is nothing in your future from the left or the right but corruption and hate and death.- Brian
I’m not depressed. I’m fascinated, much as think I would be if I lived in America before the Civil War and could somehow magically hear the arguments as they unfolded.
Let me try this metaphor: To me, its as if America has a case of severe acne, and people are arguing whether or not Chocolate (The Republicans) or Fried Foods (The Democrats) are causing the breakouts, without looking at the root causes (Special interests, bipartisan corruption, the military-industrial complex, etc).
The past eight years have been particulay bad for the health of the nation, causing me to think that fried foods are preferable to chocolate, (which contains those pesky End Times nuts I find so distasteful), without having any delusions that the Democrats will be “good” for us, in the long run.
The only thing that would help woud be to examine the root causes, and make fundamental changes, which I can’t see happening.
I predict we’ll continue to regress and head down an authoritarian path and that Democrats wil continue to see Republicans as the souce of the problem, and Republicans wil continue to see Democrats as the source of the problem, and the true problems (such as military overreach and the lobbyists who help draft legislation) wont be addressed.
Is that the Bruce Fein that wanted to impeach Cheney?- Bob
I don’t know. Why not listen to him and hear what he has to say?
If you loyalty is to Bush/Cheney, you won’t like it. If your loyalty is to the ideals set forth by the Founders, you will.
““I’m sure he (Obama) has changed his position.”- Ozzie
No, Obama never changes his position. He merely has different postions on the same subject depending on who he is talking to.
Some people might characterize that as lying. Ozzie, I’m sure would just call it nuance.
Obama is against gay marriage. Wink, Wink.
Obama is OK with coal-fired plants. Except anyone who tries building one when he is president will personally learn what backruptcy means.
Obama sure will look into nuclear electric generating plants. Except he’s against them until we have a better system of storage, and oh, he’s against Yucca Mountain. We just set back nuclear another 20 years.
Obama is not against more domestic oil production. Except he is.
Obama is a Christian who believes Christians shouldn’t leave their religion at the door to the public square. Wink, wink.
One thing Obama has been consistent on. Abortion.
No, Obama never changes his position. He merely has different postions on the same subject depending on who he is talking to.- Brian
And the same can be said of John McCain (and majority of politicians across the spectrum).
Esquire chronicled a list of McCain’s flip flops and longed for the McCain of the 2000 Campaign instead of the candidate we have today.
I’m sure you would take issue with each and every one and google thing to confirm your belief that John McCain is “a man of his word.” (His first wife might be among the first to differ with you).
But since we’re on the subject of changing one’s position depending on who one is talking to….
I cited the documentary “Why We Fight,” in which McCain candidly admitted that Eisenhower’s warning about the military/industrial complex had come true and questioned if America wasn’t venturing into imperial endeavors. He also said he thought Halliburton was overcharging the government and that there should be an invesitagion into possible fraud..
McCain said all that, it turns out, because he thought he was talking to the BBC. Once Mark Salter learned otherwise, he went ballistic and threatned the movie’s producer, Eugene Jereki, who says he was run over by “The Straight Talk Express.”
I dont have delusions about Barak Obama. I’m not looking for a savior. And, yes, I think politicans lie and change positions as a matter of course.
And yes, Brian I WAS conflicted about who I was going to vote for.
McCain’s choice of Palin helped me decide.
Deana, everyone: you know, it’s so simple to ignore Ozzie. Kind of ironic in a post about rational discourse (whatever that may be, in this day and age), but it really is a snap.
Oz is like Alan Colmes, who when faced with an example of bad behavior can do nothing more than root around for an example of same coming from the other direction – even if it requires a lot of invention to help it along. The initial question never gets answered. If you can’t win the debate, change the parameters and move it.
But it’s so easy to ignore…
Tiresias,
You’re absolutely correct. I agree with you, and most of the time I succeed in ignoring Oz. Every now and then, I get sucked in by her more atrocious statements or inconsistencies, or goal post moving.
I’ll work on it.
Promise.
“I’m sure you would take issue with each and every one and google thing to confirm your belief that John McCain is “a man of his word.” (His first wife might be among the first to differ with you).”- Ozzie
I won’t pretend to defend everything John McCain has said or changes in his positions since he has been in office, since he’s been in office a long time.
But I do believe that John McCain will advance the positions he has articulated during this campaign. And these are the positions that matter, since these are the policies he has promised myself and the American voters.
In that, I believe John McCain to be a man of his word. If he fails to live up to these promises, I will withdraw my support in 2012, should he choose to run.
What I did in refuting the flip-flops you alluded to, was to try and explain why his positions have been consistent, and the charges were political in nature.
As to his wife, I guess you would have to ask her about that, though I understand she is a avid supporter of his.
After Tuesday, I will be glad to go into all the areas that I disagree with McCain, but today and tomorrow, given the importance of this election, and the danger I think a Barack Obama presidency would pose to the United States and its’ friends, I enthusiastically support McCain and say again, John McCain is an honorable man, sometimes supports positions that are unpopular to conservatives, but will move the country in the right direction.
“I cited the documentary “Why We Fight,” in which McCain candidly admitted that Eisenhower’s warning about the military/industrial complex had come true and questioned if America wasn’t venturing into imperial endeavors. He also said he thought Halliburton was overcharging the government and that there should be an invesitagion into possible fraud.”- Ozzie
I join with McCain in not being a big fan of the military/industrial complex. I wish we had been able to build libraries for the last 50 years. I wish we could build a wall around the country like the Chinese tried, to keep our enemies at bay.
But that was not possible then, and surely isn’t possible today, although missle defense systems offer some level of protection (which Obama opposes). The enemies of America were real in Eisenhower’s day and are just as real today, though their methods have changed.
As a student of the CIA, I’m sure you are aware of the Venona Project. Over a span of decades, the level of penetration by KGB operatives into the American government was documented. The documents were released to the public in 1995 and can be viewed here:
http://www.nsa.gov/publications/publi00039.cfm
In hindsight, we spent money on defense systems that didn’t work, that prepared to defend against the wrong enemy, that were overpriced. The list would be long. That, of course, is the benefit of hindsight.
I think a John McCain administration is more likely to weed out defenseless defense systems. I trust him more than I trust Obama.
“I dont have delusions about Barak Obama. I’m not looking for a savior. And, yes, I think politicans lie and change positions as a matter of course.”- Ozzie
If you were thinking of voting for McCain, and are now going to vote for Obama, let me suggest that you are deluding yourself. It is much more than holding your nose and voting for Obama. The implications of an Obama presidency are too important to just “hope” he governs toward the center. I “hope” you will re-consider and “change” your mind about voting for Obama.
That is about the only kind of hope and change we can believe in.
Book said,
>> That does not make conservatives feel as if they’re living in the land of rational discourse. >>
I don’t think I’m living in a country that values rational discourse, not anymore!
Here in Dallas, at least among my friends, we’re still polite. But we avoid extended rational discourse. Things have become simply too emotional over the last few weeks. We’re down to politeness.
You may recall I was sending emails to my Democrat family members in Michigan. They were invariably polite and often included the phrase “Please delete if you’re not interested, I don’t mind at all! Or save this off somewhere if you think you might be interested later.”
One relative at one point replied with “Stop sending us your B*llsh*t. Thanks but NO thanks.” If representative, then across vast swaths of the country, both rational discourse and politeness have been abandoned.
I recently bought my first gun (new Glock 19). Today I go to pick up the ammo. It will remain unloaded until I train on it. Primary reason for buying: Purchases may skyrocket soon, driving up prices. #2. If Obama wins, a Democrat Washington D.C. will go after guns big time, with forced higher prices and targetted taxes a la cigarettes – a sin tax on guns – and eventually vastly increased restrictions. #3. Potential unrest in the area. I live in a quiet area but only one block off a major thoroughfare. You can’t predict unrest; it just blows up out of nowhere, as in after major victories in pro sports. Best to be ready just in case. Too bad I’m *not* completely ready. Luckily the odds of unrest here, twenty miles outside the major urban center of Dallas itself, are low.
Next up in the next few months: Home defense weapon – double barrel shotgun. Later, if time and finances permit, I might consider a third purchase: A used AR-15, if I get lucky to find a used one at a cheap price. I hear anecdotally they’re flying off the shelves, so it’s probably not going to happen.
The implications of an Obama presidency are too important to just “hope” he governs toward the center. – Brian
I understand that you believe this.
I’m not trying to get you to change your mind.
And, at this point, you’re not going to change mine.
I’m just trying to get you to see that there are solid reasons John McCain lags in the polls and not everyone who is voting for Obama is stuipd or naive or has been duped by the mainstream media.
I recently bought my first gun (new Glock 19)- Mike
It’s funny you should say this. My oldest son just registered for his first gun.
He wants to know how to use a gun to protect himself against thugs.
He’s ridiculously smart and successful and not a lefty. And like me, he was shocked by news that a brigade has returned from Iraq to patrol U.S. streets.
Unlike you, however, he thinks this scenario is more likey with a McCain victory.
No matter who you’re voting for, things are decidely weirder this time around.
I’m sticking with the current theory that Ozzie is a “concern troll.”
I reached that conclusion when I realized that he/she never responds to an argument with reasoning of her own, but rather cuts and pastes from such sources as Bill Moyers(!) and Esquire, paragons of insightful and even-handed analysis.
I would offer another description for Oz and her ilk: a “tu quoque troll.” Tu quoque — you do it, too! — is the classic dodge leftists use when they or their proteges get caught with their pants down.
Instead of the addressing the moral issue at hand (and the left knows it has very little moral principle to stand on), the response is an attempt at misdirection.
(I’m still chuckling over her “authoritarianism-libertarianism” spectrum of political philosophy where she awarded Ralph Nader a niche in the libertarian hall of heroes.)
I’m sticking with the current theory that Ozzie is a “concern troll.”- Chalres
You do that, Charles.
“I’m still chuckling over her “authoritarianism-libertarianism” spectrum of political philosophy where she awarded Ralph Nader a niche in the libertarian hall of heroes– Charles
I didnt award him anything. The folks at the political compass (an organization which looks at politics globally vs from an American viewpoint) did.
Thanks for confirming my analysis with your fourth paragraph, Oz.
To wit, not a single original insight. If an “authority” confirms one of your previously exisiting prejudices, you parade it here as gospel.
I’ll await — and await, and await and await — for you to walk away from your enablers and try debating with us here on your own.
To wit, not a single original insight. If an “authority” confirms one of your previously exisiting prejudices, you parade it here as gospel. – Charles
Now that terms like “Conservative and liberal, Democrat and Republican no longer have the meanings they once did, it’s the system that makes the most sense to me.
And yes, Ralph Nader and Dennis Kucinich are the only U,.S presdential candidates that, by worldwide standards of “left and right,” actually graphed to the left.
“I’ll await — and await, and await and await — for you to walk away from your enablers and try debating with us here on your own.” – Charles
My Enablers? Are they the people supposedly paying me to talk to you? The imaginary people you’ve concluded I answer to, based on a ridiculous theory?
You seem to pull misinformation out of your butt, Charles.
I try to explain what’s influenced my thinking.
Oz, thank you for the tribute to my butt, which, all things being equal, seems to be outperforming your brain.
If I thought you knew how to think independently, without the likes of Esquire and Bill Moyers to do your thinking for you, I’d take you more seriously.
Bookworm, my apologies.
I did not start contributing to this site to get into jousts with defenseless trolls.
Now that I’ve taken a deep breath, I’ll behave better.
As long as the jousting remains civil — no personal insults, no threats and no obscenities — I tend to view these things as good practice for real world debate. They keep my blog lively, and develop sensible arguments beautifully.
Mike Devx,
If you are not yet a member of the NRA, you should consider joining. The NRA endorses many different shooting courses. No doubt you will be able to find one to suit your needs. A side benefit of membership is the power of many, joined together in a productive organization.
On another note, ammo. This area will prove to be the back door of gun banishment. The idea will be to tax, harass, and generally do all they can to limit what you may purchase. In other words, stock up on ammo. No ammo, no need for a gun.
Congrats on becoming a gun owner.
http://membership.nrahq.org/default.aspx?campaignid=nranews
Rockdalian. Two words. Concealed carry.
And I’ll have to confess: I like Ozzie.
And I think there are good reasons to vote FOR Obama. These are just vastly outnumbered by the reasons NOT to vote for Obama. I think an African-American President would be a good thing for the country. A very good thing. I simply cannot support Obama.
Zhombre says,
>> And I’ll have to confess: I like Ozzie. >>
Sometimes I agree with Ozzie, at least on broad principles. Usually it involves the sad state of our entire election system; though Ozzie refuses to see the problems with the front end. We agree that conservatism recently lost its way, but we disagree on why and on Palin and on the future.
What can you say; even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
>> I think an African-American President would be a good thing for the country. >>
I agree, but Obama is not that African-American! One corner of my mind can’t believe that people are actually voting for him. Simply – can’t – believe – it.
I said earlier this summer that I was going to give Blacks a pass on racist voting this year, because Obama was Their First. A racist voting pattern on their part would be regrettable but understandable to me.
I guess I’m going to stick with that, but man, the accusations against *us* of racism do make it hard to see the blatant racism involved in a 98% or 99% Black vote for Obama. It’s very difficult to accept.
I will not be accepting at all of racist Black voting for any second such Black candidate. No way at all.
>> On another note, ammo. This area will prove to be the back door of gun banishment. The idea will be to tax, harass, and generally do all they can to limit what you may purchase. In other words, stock up on ammo. >>
Would “black market” purchase of ammo be considered Civil Disobedience?
Al Gore did recently tell me that now is the time for civil disobedience!
“One corner of my mind can’t believe that people are actually voting for him. Simply – can’t – believe – it.”
We share a corner.
If Colin Powell had run for president as a Republican, a vast majority of African Americans would have voted for him soley because of his skin color.
So Obama has a double advantage: He’s not only half African American, he’s the standard bearer for the political party that has successfully colonized blacks since the Civil War — either under Jim Crow or via welfare.
I agree with Mike that the temptation for blacks to vote on skin color is well nigh irresistible and I’m not going to bitch at the outcome because of it.
My fear is that Obama and his haters will be so incompetent that it will set back the cause of black equality for years. On top of having to contend with a toxic ghetto culture, a 70% rate of bastardy and out-of-control abortions (35% of all black babies conceived are dismantled before birth), African Americans will have the onus of a failed (half) black president to suffer under.
This isn’t going to be a good four years for anybody.
I should clarify what I meant by “Obama and his haters.”
I was referring to the spiteful people Obama has surrounded himself with — Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, the Rev. Wright, George Soros and the world’s anti-Semites (Hamas, Iran, the Rev. Jackson, U.S. academia, etc.)
>> My fear is that Obama and his haters will be so incompetent that it will set back the cause of black equality for years. >>
Have you all seen the video of Obama doing the middle-finger stroke of his cheek on the mention of McCain – a repeat of his twice-repeated insult towards Hillary?
There is something so phenomenally strange about this man! Remember the CNN video captured of him posing in the plane aisle for the female reporters to swoon over (some of them laughed embarrassedly – they caught the strangeness then too). It’s all representative of the arrogance of a sophomore in high school running for Class President: An arrogance founded mostly on immaturity. Very, very strange. He hates being criticized; we’ve seen enough instances of that. This is a man with a very thin skin who has somehow learned to control his worst impulses – most of the time. I’d love to be a fly on the wall in those private situations where he unleashes his anger. (I also see Michelle Obama as a constantly angry woman, and I do mean constantly.)
What that would mean for an Executive Office, especially on the foreign crisis decisions, is hard to predict. Let’s hope we don’t have to find out! I am feeling more confident tonight that McCain will win this one, for us all!
As I just heard Tammy Bruce say on the Laura Ingraham show, if I’m wrong and Obama wins it, we’ll all have worse problems than me being embarrassed about being wrong in my confidence.
That does not make conservatives feel as if they’re living in the land of rational discourse.
This is why we tend to like our guns and bibles. Or violence and the psychology of killing.
And now they are talking about killing him?
When you become persona non grata in the old Soviet Union (and the new Russian Republic) you tend to disappear, Deana, one way or another. Reporters suiciding by falling off their apartment buildings, for example.
The right wing hate mongers are talking about killing regular citizens, too.
Oz feels a need to defend the actions of Democrats by raising a tu quoque argument. This makes a lot of sense to Oz the Nihilist, of course.
I know you like to portray yourself as a paragon of objectivity but you are not. You’ve demonstrated that sufficiently here.
Picked that up, did we ; )
Ozzie it must be hard living such a depressed life, where there is nothing in your future from the left or the right but corruption and hate and death.- Brian
I’m not depressed. I’m fascinated
Like I said, Brian, Oz, like any proper nihilist, enjoys and is fascinated by watching people suffer, car accidents occur, and various other kinds of mayhem and misery.
whether or not Chocolate (The Republicans) or Fried Foods (The Democrats) are causing the breakouts, without looking at the root causes (Special interests, bipartisan corruption, the military-industrial complex, etc).
So you try to improve things by blaming the Republicans whenever you see the Democrats needing a propaganda defense? And you actually think this is “bipartisan”, hehe. Well, it is at least corrupt on your side even if it isn’t bipartisan corrupt.
Every now and then, I get sucked in by her more atrocious statements or inconsistencies, or goal post moving.
It’s nice to get a fundamental template and to get Oz to state her beliefs clear out so that we can have a record that we may use for our benefit or the benefit of others (newcomers for example).
I recently bought my first gun (new Glock 19)
Good luck with it. If you get to the point where you actually like shooting firearms at the range, then you will be well on your way to becoming part of the American tradition of loving things that go boom.
Next up in the next few months: Home defense weapon – double barrel shotgun. Later, if time and finances permit, I might consider a third purchase: A used AR-15, if I get lucky to find a used one at a cheap price. I hear anecdotally they’re flying off the shelves, so it’s probably not going to happen.
You trying to set yourself up like a Marine sergeant I know, M? He had whole shelves of firearms from Russian SVK to various imports and olden US makes.
Btw, here’s a disarm trick you might want to practice with friends and family. This is stripped down of all the principles which will make you truly proficient in open hand vs firearms but it’s something you should think about when using firearms. (stripped down means this is not guaranteed to save your life whereas knowing the principles and practicing TFT would guarantee it given the fact that their clients have never died using this training) Most disarm tricks speak about quickly grabbing the gun and then twisting it away or twisting yourself sideways so that the vector of the bullet no longer goes through your head/body. TFT uses three principles in all violence: penetration, rotation, and follow through. Penetration is when you step from where you are to the target using yor entire body-mass to go through the target. Rotation can be seen in joint breaks, twisting sideways, rotating your torso to place more power in a hit, and so forth. Follow through means to hit and put all your mass behind it and let gravity do the rest. It is the opposite of hitting quickly and then pulling back.
Combine them together and you get a few simple steps. TFT provides some video samples of how these techniques are done at their website, http://www.targetfocustraining.com they don’t show disarms, however, but the throws and strikes should give you a specific impression of what it will look like.
Scenario 1 Gun in your face, hands held up.
1. Place your left foot at or beyond the assailant’s feet, aim a striking surface at your selected target (throat, eyes, groan, side neck, collar bone, etc. etc.) and then strike through the target, ignoring the firearm: making sure the foot you land on, the left on in this instance, is at the assailant’s foot or beyond it. Repeat until the target is helpless (injured) and you can do whatever you want with him, including disarming him of a firearm or other tool.
A slight adjustment of your head or body (where the gun is pointed at) combined with a step forward allows you to go past the range at which a projectile weapon is effective. That is the weakness of projectile weapons. Even if you have a high rate of fire, it is not going to help you against targets that have gotten just a little bit too close.
you parade it here as gospel.
If you get on Oz’s bad side, like McCain, then her views on her source (McCain in this instance) will change. Meaning that Oz doesn’t really care what McCain believed or what her other sources believed. Oz already has a vision of what she believes to be the truth and is simply repeating what others say because it makes her position look more numerous and less in need of validation concerning Oz’s original premises.
In other words, stock up on ammo. No ammo, no need for a gun.
You’ll need ammo if you want to practice shooting and that’s the only way to get better. Some courses/instructors provide free ammo, of course, but that really depends.
We agree that conservatism recently lost its way, but we disagree on why and on Palin and on the future.
That means that your idea of conservatism is not the same as Oz’s.
P.S.
As an original thought, consider the fact that Oz is the kind of person that does not offer reasons for behaviors or reasons behind problems or for solutions so much as she offers you a negative contrast for behavior. For mike, it was Oz’s personal relative. For Republicans, it is other Republicans. For Democrats, it is, well, I haven’t seen her talk to a Democrat or a Lefty, yet.
This definition of truth through abstraction, dictates, and negative contrast is invalid on the level of principle as well as on the level of specific details.
Oz, a person who has not supported the liberation of Iraq and its stabilization from chaos to secure democracy, wants to speak about American soldiers patrolling the streets of America. How would Oz know the problems, big and small, concerning US soldiers in a city, American or foreign? Oz doesn’t even pay attention to such things and she can’t or won’t even use her large inventory of quotes to compare and contrast the Iraq war with X number of individuals and incidents. Oz completely ignores the current events of her day in favor of fabricated and fantasy scenarios from Oz’s own desires and fears. She fears US soldiers on the streets so she talks about others having that fear, but never says that she herself fears this or is concerned about this, only that it is proper for Oz to present a portrayal of McCain and Sarah as bringing this specific scenario about.
Charles –
You are the first person anywhere who I have heard utter something that has been on my mind recently: that an Obama presidency will be an utter disaster for black Americans.
One of my dearest, long-term friends is a black man who has already voted for Obama. He is one of the very few liberals I know with whom I am able to sit down and have a rational discussion with in terms of politics. There are some Obama policies he favors but he admits that he is voting for Obama because of race.
Based on the lengthy discussions I have had with this man, I understand that many black Americans are voting for Obama purely because of race. I don’t say this as a criticism, just a statement of fact and a repeat of what he has told me. I don’t agree with that motivation because I know in my heart that values and policy decisions should trump something like race but I understand the motivation.
However, what I have not been able to verbalize to him is my growing fear that Obama will damage black Americans in ways that we can’t begin to appreciate right now. An Obama presidency will make the Clinton presidency look positively pristine. We will lurch from one scandal or disaster or revelation to the next – sort of like his campaign. My fear is that while Obama’s failures should have no bearing on how black Americans are perceived (including by themselves), I know that is what will happen.
I know some will view this as a racist statement but as I stated elsewhere, this campaign has cured me of being afraid of that anymore. Black Americans seem to desperately need a national success story – they need someone who is “it,” the one who everyone sees every day to be viewed as a success, powerful, and part of the solution.
I just don’t think Obama is the one who will do that.
On a happier note, I would like to draw attention to someone who I hope will emerge on the national scene in the next decade – Lt. Col. Allen West of the 22nd district in Florida. I recently watched Pamela Gellar interview him and was utterly blown away.
http://www.allenwestforcongress.com
The guy is amazing. He inspires confidence and his values and beliefs are something that I think would rally many Americans.
We need to support people like him now to help them get to where we need them.
Deana
For this and other reasons, I pray that if Obama does become President, that he is successful and a good leader. Many people are depending on that.
Deana
Deana:
Straight up I’ll say that I’m with you: If Obama is elected president, I pray that he will govern wisely and well.
I also agree with you that it’s useless to argue with our black friends about voting for the man simply because of his color. If I were an African American, I’d be powerfully tempted to vote for him simply because it would take care of something that this nation will have to do sooner or later to finally get past the vestiges of its old racism.
It’s just that this thin-skinned, unqualified, hater-surrounded, incredibly ignorant and cosseted young man is not the one.
Y said (#45)
>> You trying to set yourself up like a Marine sergeant I know, M? He had whole shelves of firearms from Russian SVK to various imports and olden US makes. >>
No, Y. The handgun and shotgun are personal defense weapons. The AR-15 would be to assist in a general rebellion against the government. It would be a luxury purchase – especially since if the government really meant business, it wouldn’t matter.
But if such a corrupt government were faced with significant armed resistance and wasn’t quite certain how far it wanted to strike against us, such a sufficiently armed populace would make the government think twice.
>>But if such a corrupt government were faced with significant armed resistance and wasn’t quite certain how far it wanted to strike against us, such a sufficiently armed populace would make the government think twice.>>
I’ve thought about this. Where are the military and the police at this point? At what point would the military _not_ support the government? At what point would the police _not_ support orders to take on the locals? I don’t think either would take action against resistant but non-violent citizens, but then Obama wants his “private” security group. Black Panthers? That’s who was “protecting” the polls in Philly today. Do they really want a race war?
My concern is more that we are so completely vulnerable to bureaucracy these days…they can slap you with a tax lien or hit you with fines for not doing X, and poof! there go your assets. If your cash assets are in bank accounts, you have no protection. You could always stuff your money under your pillow, but money is only paper…that can change pretty easily as well. Land? Maybe…as long as the local sheriff won’t put it up for auction for taxes.
I can see us going back to a barter society, or all cash transactions. Nobody getting really wealthy unless they have the “right” government connections – which could change – or out of country accounts. I might consider putting money in a Canadian bank…
>> My concern is more that we are so completely vulnerable to bureaucracy these days…they can slap you with a tax lien or hit you with fines for not doing X, and poof! there go your assets. >>
I agree completely, SueK. But there are steps along the road, and I think you’ve described some of the steps. I’m not saying all this is likely, but it’s useful to at least consider them, isn’t it?
Other possible steps along this road: Imagine a nationwide movement, organized via blogs (because conservative talk radio has been mostly shut down). The goal of the movement: To refuse to pay taxes. Forty million of us have signed up. To every extent possible, we begin implementing the plan. In every way possible we resist sending every penny we can resist sending. (W-2 and automatic tax prepay make a full-tax resistance very difficult, but many of us get inspired and inventive.)
Just *what* exactly would the government going to do with all 40 million of us? They’d try to scare us by making an example of some number of thousands of us, but we’ve “girded our loins” for that already! (Thanks, Joe Biden!) We’ve accepted that lottery.
And that’s a thought experiment on just one such step along the road.
Oops, SKS not SVK.
I’m not too worried about violence in the streets. This may seem surprising to those that have seen me write about violence and killing and various other ordinary things like that before.
I also don’t think we would see a barter society ala post-apocalypse scenarios.
History has taught me, if anything, that when Empires fall it is due to two combinations of effects. Weak internal dynamics and strong foreign enemies outside ready to move in. Rome is one good example. Constantinople another good example. The European Empires mostly let their colonies go since it wasn’t worth the upkeep and blood. They were a sea trade empire so they could do that. Up until the savages starting coming to the island, like say in Britain.
The goal of the movement: To refuse to pay taxes. Forty million of us have signed up. To every extent possible, we begin implementing the plan. In every way possible we resist sending every penny we can resist sending. (W-2 and automatic tax prepay make a full-tax resistance very difficult, but many of us get inspired and inventive.)
If people are looking for successful insurgency methods, learn from Iraq. The same things used to defeat AQ can be used to defeat any occupying power. AQ, after all, occupied Al ANbar more than we did and we couldn’t push them out permanently until we could teach the exploited and downtrodden natives how to fight back after they finally decided to ally with us against AQ, their former allies.