Comments on: When it comes to education, liberals continue to be invested in affirmative action *UPDATED* http://www.bookwormroom.com/2009/12/03/when-it-comes-to-education-liberals-continue-sadly-to-be-invested-in-affirmative-action/ Conservatives deal with facts and reach conclusions; liberals have conclusions and sell them as facts. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:48:25 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ymarsakar http://www.bookwormroom.com/2009/12/03/when-it-comes-to-education-liberals-continue-sadly-to-be-invested-in-affirmative-action/comment-page-1/#comment-83758 Ymarsakar Sun, 06 Dec 2009 22:50:08 +0000 http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=9881#comment-83758 Since black culture is turning into the same as slave owning culture, why should they support inter-racial marriages? It's not like they're increasing black babies by supporting the White Power and White Privilege of Planned Parenthood abortion. So they're just ridiculous hypocrites, liars, and pathetic losers. In that order. Since black culture is turning into the same as slave owning culture, why should they support inter-racial marriages? It’s not like they’re increasing black babies by supporting the White Power and White Privilege of Planned Parenthood abortion. So they’re just ridiculous hypocrites, liars, and pathetic losers. In that order.

]]> By: SADIE http://www.bookwormroom.com/2009/12/03/when-it-comes-to-education-liberals-continue-sadly-to-be-invested-in-affirmative-action/comment-page-1/#comment-83757 SADIE Sun, 06 Dec 2009 22:11:43 +0000 http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=9881#comment-83757 suek I was reading this last night and thought it was more than interesting. It never occured to me to think of Tiger's escapades as a black/white issue but only a moral one.   One reviewer revealed that had Obama married a white woman, she would not have voted for him - how's that for racism. suek
I was reading this last night and thought it was more than interesting. It never occured to me to think of Tiger’s escapades as a black/white issue but only a moral one.   One reviewer revealed that had Obama married a white woman, she would not have voted for him – how’s that for racism.

]]> By: suek http://www.bookwormroom.com/2009/12/03/when-it-comes-to-education-liberals-continue-sadly-to-be-invested-in-affirmative-action/comment-page-1/#comment-83755 suek Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:49:21 +0000 http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=9881#comment-83755 An interesting footnote...   http://sweetness-light.com/archive/preservation-thing-blacks-marrying-whites An interesting footnote…
 
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/preservation-thing-blacks-marrying-whites

]]> By: gpc31 http://www.bookwormroom.com/2009/12/03/when-it-comes-to-education-liberals-continue-sadly-to-be-invested-in-affirmative-action/comment-page-1/#comment-83686 gpc31 Sat, 05 Dec 2009 18:55:20 +0000 http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=9881#comment-83686 Interestingly, Stephen Smith is a fan of Mark Levin.  He called into Levin's radio show.  It's a mutual admiration society. Interestingly, Stephen Smith is a fan of Mark Levin.  He called into Levin’s radio show.  It’s a mutual admiration society.

]]> By: Gringo http://www.bookwormroom.com/2009/12/03/when-it-comes-to-education-liberals-continue-sadly-to-be-invested-in-affirmative-action/comment-page-1/#comment-83674 Gringo Sat, 05 Dec 2009 17:15:00 +0000 http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=9881#comment-83674 <cite>Mike Devx : </cite> <cite></cite><em>“You want to be a nonthreatening, professional black guy,” said Winston Bell, 40, of Cleveland, who has been looking for a job in business development. He drew an analogy to several prominent black sports broadcasters. “You don’t want to be Stephen A. Smith. You want to be  Bryant Gumbel. You don’t even want to be Stuart Scott. You don’t want to be, ‘Booyah.’</em> ”   If  a white guy's demeanor in a job interview reminded the interviewer of   Stephen Smith instead of  Bryant Gumbel, the odds are that he wouldn't get the job either.   This also bring up the issue of cultural norms- how one feels one should behave- and cultural stereotypes- how one views members of certain groups.   The mainstream cultural norm in the US is closer to Bryant  Gumbel's demeanor than it is to Stephen Smith's. While most of us may appreciate Stephen Smith's demeanor for a TV personality, we are less likely to appreciate it in our boss.  Whites are also more likely to label Stephen Smith's demeanor as "typical black"  than they will so label Bryant  Gumbel's.   I could write on and on about this, so will keep it short.   It has been pointed out that some blacks have the idea that studying hard in school means that  one is selling out (recall "sellout" in Obama's first book), that one is "acting white:"    that "acting black" means that one should not study hard.  This also a factor in the gap between black and white achievement. Certainly not all blacks have this point of view.  I can cite numerous examples  of those who do not. But it is there. ( from Dreams: "To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors.") Mike Devx :
“You want to be a nonthreatening, professional black guy,” said Winston Bell, 40, of Cleveland, who has been looking for a job in business development. He drew an analogy to several prominent black sports broadcasters. “You don’t want to be Stephen A. Smith. You want to be  Bryant Gumbel. You don’t even want to be Stuart Scott. You don’t want to be, ‘Booyah.’ ”
 
If  a white guy’s demeanor in a job interview reminded the interviewer of   Stephen Smith instead of  Bryant Gumbel, the odds are that he wouldn’t get the job either.
 
This also bring up the issue of cultural norms- how one feels one should behave- and cultural stereotypes- how one views members of certain groups.   The mainstream cultural norm in the US is closer to Bryant  Gumbel’s demeanor than it is to Stephen Smith’s. While most of us may appreciate Stephen Smith’s demeanor for a TV personality, we are less likely to appreciate it in our boss.  Whites are also more likely to label Stephen Smith’s demeanor as “typical black”  than they will so label Bryant  Gumbel’s.   I could write on and on about this, so will keep it short.
 
It has been pointed out that some blacks have the idea that studying hard in school means that  one is selling out (recall “sellout” in Obama’s first book), that one is “acting white:”    that “acting black” means that one should not study hard.  This also a factor in the gap between black and white achievement. Certainly not all blacks have this point of view.  I can cite numerous examples  of those who do not. But it is there.
( from Dreams: “To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors.”)

]]> By: suek http://www.bookwormroom.com/2009/12/03/when-it-comes-to-education-liberals-continue-sadly-to-be-invested-in-affirmative-action/comment-page-1/#comment-83672 suek Sat, 05 Dec 2009 16:56:45 +0000 http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=9881#comment-83672 Mike, you bring up a great point - it isn't necessarily the color of the person's skin, it's the cultural thing.  If it _is_ solely the person's skin color, then yes - that's flat out racism.  And stupid.  But going back to Helen's frequent comments that the white man dominates the culture, and blacks can't get ahead unless they assimilate into that culture, which apparently means losing their own, and therefore the white man has been suppressing the black man.  In a sense, she's right.  She - and they - are also stupid.  For years and years we heard about "the ugly American" who went to foreign countries and insisted that things were terrible because they weren't like they were in America, or that things had to be done like they were done in America.  We were told that we had to accept other cultures and be "sensitive".  Ok...so blacks want success in this predominantly white culture - on their terms.  They have become "the ugly blacks" in a sense.  Their way doesn't bring them success, but they can't merge or assimilate in a way that _would_ bring them success, because that would be a yielding...a failure of their culture. The fact of the matter is that they have to choose.  They either assimilate or fail.  That's what they can't accept.  They want to have their cake and eat it too.  They want to _force_  whites to accept _their_ culture, even when the practices of their culture are contrary to success.   Ain't agonna work.   And you know what?  it seems to me that before "The Great Society", when there really _was_ strong racism, blacks were closer to whites in cultural work ethics than they are today after 50 years of "helping" them.  The welfare we've given them has destroyed their work ethic, and they don't really want to get back in harness again - it's "beneath" them to do real work.  Self indulgence - it's a bad thing!   I'd like to see all forms simply eliminate the "race" and "sex" boxes.  If they really need some kind of a count for some reason, fine.  Put the boxes on a tear off at the bottom of the form and then tear it off and drop it into their "count 'em" box - with nothing on the rest of the form.     Mike, you bring up a great point – it isn’t necessarily the color of the person’s skin, it’s the cultural thing.  If it _is_ solely the person’s skin color, then yes – that’s flat out racism.  And stupid.  But going back to Helen’s frequent comments that the white man dominates the culture, and blacks can’t get ahead unless they assimilate into that culture, which apparently means losing their own, and therefore the white man has been suppressing the black man.  In a sense, she’s right.  She – and they – are also stupid.  For years and years we heard about “the ugly American” who went to foreign countries and insisted that things were terrible because they weren’t like they were in America, or that things had to be done like they were done in America.  We were told that we had to accept other cultures and be “sensitive”.  Ok…so blacks want success in this predominantly white culture – on their terms.  They have become “the ugly blacks” in a sense.  Their way doesn’t bring them success, but they can’t merge or assimilate in a way that _would_ bring them success, because that would be a yielding…a failure of their culture.
The fact of the matter is that they have to choose.  They either assimilate or fail.  That’s what they can’t accept.  They want to have their cake and eat it too.  They want to _force_  whites to accept _their_ culture, even when the practices of their culture are contrary to success.   Ain’t agonna work.
 
And you know what?  it seems to me that before “The Great Society”, when there really _was_ strong racism, blacks were closer to whites in cultural work ethics than they are today after 50 years of “helping” them.  The welfare we’ve given them has destroyed their work ethic, and they don’t really want to get back in harness again – it’s “beneath” them to do real work.  Self indulgence – it’s a bad thing!
 
I’d like to see all forms simply eliminate the “race” and “sex” boxes.  If they really need some kind of a count for some reason, fine.  Put the boxes on a tear off at the bottom of the form and then tear it off and drop it into their “count ‘em” box – with nothing on the rest of the form.
 
 

]]> By: Mike Devx http://www.bookwormroom.com/2009/12/03/when-it-comes-to-education-liberals-continue-sadly-to-be-invested-in-affirmative-action/comment-page-1/#comment-83665 Mike Devx Sat, 05 Dec 2009 15:06:45 +0000 http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=9881#comment-83665   Articles such as these by the NY Times and the Post, for me, suffer because they drop in a smattering of statistics and numbers to try to lend gravity to the articles, but they never support those numbers.  You're left wondering: Is there any truth to them, or are the numbers chosen out of bias?  Chosen out of bias!  THAT never happens!  :-)   Just ask Phil Jones, he of the Global Warming "politicized scientist" crowd, who might also be prosecuted criminally for deletion of emails in violation of the Freedom Of Information Act.   The NY Times article mentions that they chose 24 black interviewees for this story.  How were they selected?  No one outside of the NY Times knows.  Did they even try to interview successful applicants?   Who knows?  What's the basis for any of the percentages quoted?  Who knows?   (And that's the real shame about Phil Jones and the whole sorry crowd of "scientists" behind global warming who have deliberately skewed their data for either political purpose or to keep the money flowing, or to keep their positions by denying peer review to their critics.  All of science takes a hit when the frauds do their fraudulent work.  Trust drops a notch, each time, across all of science's fields.)   As Gringo said, racism exists.  I think racism exists everywhere across this world, but I also believe we've done one hell of a great job in this country de-institutionalizing it.  The racists are out there - of course! - but they've got no official support anywhere.  I submit that in most other countries, the situation is far worse.   Similar to what happened to Gringo's friend, this anecdote from the NY Times article is troublesome to me: <start> Mr. Williams recently applied to a Dallas money management firm that had posted a position with top business schools. The hiring manager had seemed ecstatic to hear from him, telling him they had trouble getting people from prestigious business schools to move to the area. Mr. Williams had left New York and moved back in with his parents in Dallas to save money. But when Mr. Williams later met two men from the firm for lunch, he said they appeared stunned when he strolled up to introduce himself. “Their eyes kind of hit the ceiling a bit,” he said. “It was kind of quiet for about 45 seconds.” The company’s interest in him quickly cooled, setting off the inevitable questions in his mind. <end>   But how can you evaluate this anecdote?  The man met two people from the company for the interview.  Their reactions certainly appear wrong.  Was it racism?  Quite possibly?  Did Mr. Williams stroll up casually, say, "How's it hangin', bros?"  and put them off immediately?  Probably not... but how can you tell for sure?  But because I believe there will always be racists, it's entirely certain to me that some are denied oppportunity out of racism, and if these two fellows are racist, they certainly reported back to HR that Williams was entirely unacceptable; and of course at that point the company's interest would "cool".   Then there's this anecdote, also from the NY Times article: <start> “You want to be a nonthreatening, professional black guy,” said Winston Bell, 40, of Cleveland, who has been looking for a job in business development. He drew an analogy to several prominent black sports broadcasters. “You don’t want to be Stephen A. Smith. You want to be <a title="More articles about Bryant Gumbel" href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/bryant_gumbel/index.html?inline=nyt-per" rel="nofollow">Bryant Gumbel</a>. You don’t even want to be Stuart Scott. You don’t want to be, ‘Booyah.’ ” <end>   Now, Mr. Bell certainly doesn't know Stephen A. Smith.  He's seen him on TV, as I have. That Stephen A. Smith - the TV image - is an in your face, raucous entertainment personality.   I can tell you, if I interviewed that Stephen A. Smith, I wouldn't hire him.  And if someone line Stuart Scott, in an interview, gave me a couple of high-energy "Booyahs!", I wouldn't hire him either.  In both cases the personas are inappropriate for a corporate interview, and that kind of behavior during an interview is a sign of something very wrong.  Heck, even if you've been hired, and you're out after work for drinks, you have to evaluate the co-workers you're with before you let loose with a bunch of high-fives and Booyah! Bouyah!s.  It might perfectly fit in; it might be completely the wrong thing to do.    
Articles such as these by the NY Times and the Post, for me, suffer because they drop in a smattering of statistics and numbers to try to lend gravity to the articles, but they never support those numbers.  You’re left wondering: Is there any truth to them, or are the numbers chosen out of bias?  Chosen out of bias!  THAT never happens!  :-)   Just ask Phil Jones, he of the Global Warming “politicized scientist” crowd, who might also be prosecuted criminally for deletion of emails in violation of the Freedom Of Information Act.
 
The NY Times article mentions that they chose 24 black interviewees for this story.  How were they selected?  No one outside of the NY Times knows.  Did they even try to interview successful applicants?   Who knows?  What’s the basis for any of the percentages quoted?  Who knows?
 
(And that’s the real shame about Phil Jones and the whole sorry crowd of “scientists” behind global warming who have deliberately skewed their data for either political purpose or to keep the money flowing, or to keep their positions by denying peer review to their critics.  All of science takes a hit when the frauds do their fraudulent work.  Trust drops a notch, each time, across all of science’s fields.)
 
As Gringo said, racism exists.  I think racism exists everywhere across this world, but I also believe we’ve done one hell of a great job in this country de-institutionalizing it.  The racists are out there – of course! – but they’ve got no official support anywhere.  I submit that in most other countries, the situation is far worse.
 
Similar to what happened to Gringo’s friend, this anecdote from the NY Times article is troublesome to me:
<start>

Mr. Williams recently applied to a Dallas money management firm that had posted a position with top business schools. The hiring manager had seemed ecstatic to hear from him, telling him they had trouble getting people from prestigious business schools to move to the area. Mr. Williams had left New York and moved back in with his parents in Dallas to save money.
But when Mr. Williams later met two men from the firm for lunch, he said they appeared stunned when he strolled up to introduce himself.
“Their eyes kind of hit the ceiling a bit,” he said. “It was kind of quiet for about 45 seconds.”
The company’s interest in him quickly cooled, setting off the inevitable questions in his mind.
<end>
 
But how can you evaluate this anecdote?  The man met two people from the company for the interview.  Their reactions certainly appear wrong.  Was it racism?  Quite possibly?  Did Mr. Williams stroll up casually, say, “How’s it hangin’, bros?”  and put them off immediately?  Probably not… but how can you tell for sure?  But because I believe there will always be racists, it’s entirely certain to me that some are denied oppportunity out of racism, and if these two fellows are racist, they certainly reported back to HR that Williams was entirely unacceptable; and of course at that point the company’s interest would “cool”.
 
Then there’s this anecdote, also from the NY Times article:
<start>

“You want to be a nonthreatening, professional black guy,” said Winston Bell, 40, of Cleveland, who has been looking for a job in business development.
He drew an analogy to several prominent black sports broadcasters. “You don’t want to be Stephen A. Smith. You want to be Bryant Gumbel. You don’t even want to be Stuart Scott. You don’t want to be, ‘Booyah.’ ”
<end>
 
Now, Mr. Bell certainly doesn’t know Stephen A. Smith.  He’s seen him on TV, as I have. That Stephen A. Smith – the TV image – is an in your face, raucous entertainment personality.   I can tell you, if I interviewed that Stephen A. Smith, I wouldn’t hire him.  And if someone line Stuart Scott, in an interview, gave me a couple of high-energy “Booyahs!”, I wouldn’t hire him either.  In both cases the personas are inappropriate for a corporate interview, and that kind of behavior during an interview is a sign of something very wrong.  Heck, even if you’ve been hired, and you’re out after work for drinks, you have to evaluate the co-workers you’re with before you let loose with a bunch of high-fives and Booyah! Bouyah!s.  It might perfectly fit in; it might be completely the wrong thing to do.
 

]]> By: gpc31 http://www.bookwormroom.com/2009/12/03/when-it-comes-to-education-liberals-continue-sadly-to-be-invested-in-affirmative-action/comment-page-1/#comment-83651 gpc31 Sat, 05 Dec 2009 04:09:34 +0000 http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=9881#comment-83651 Gringo:  you make several excellent points, notwithstanding the fact that I agree with most of them!   There is discrimination, and it is unjust.  There is racism, and it is wrong.  However, racism is a weak signal in a noisy world, amplified by the hyper-sensitive antennae of our psyches:  I mean the fundamental attribution error of human nature.  (When, I win, it is due to my character; when I lose, it is due to overwhelming circumstances beyond my control.  Conversely, when you win, it's good luck; but when you lose, it's obviously due to a character flaw.)  The person being discriminated against can never, or only rarely, be certain of the motivation or cause.  For example, was the discrimination due to racial animus or perverse policy incentives?  (Such as your example of businesses refusing to hire for fear of being sued later).   And from one perspective, does it matter?  A qualified person is out of a job. How do you help the truly disadvantaged?  Hair of the dog doesn't work. Going cold turkey?  Can you imagine the upheaval and transitory injustice for all those subsidized classes?  Farmers, CPAs, affirmative action babies?  Maybe society would adjust with less trauma than feared :  welfare reform turned out pretty well despite some dire predictions. Gringo:  you make several excellent points, notwithstanding the fact that I agree with most of them!  

There is discrimination, and it is unjust.  There is racism, and it is wrong.  However, racism is a weak signal in a noisy world, amplified by the hyper-sensitive antennae of our psyches:  I mean the fundamental attribution error of human nature.  (When, I win, it is due to my character; when I lose, it is due to overwhelming circumstances beyond my control.  Conversely, when you win, it’s good luck; but when you lose, it’s obviously due to a character flaw.) 

The person being discriminated against can never, or only rarely, be certain of the motivation or cause.  For example, was the discrimination due to racial animus or perverse policy incentives?  (Such as your example of businesses refusing to hire for fear of being sued later).   And from one perspective, does it matter?  A qualified person is out of a job.

How do you help the truly disadvantaged? 

Hair of the dog doesn’t work.

Going cold turkey?  Can you imagine the upheaval and transitory injustice for all those subsidized classes?  Farmers, CPAs, affirmative action babies?  Maybe society would adjust with less trauma than feared :  welfare reform turned out pretty well despite some dire predictions.

]]> By: Bookworm http://www.bookwormroom.com/2009/12/03/when-it-comes-to-education-liberals-continue-sadly-to-be-invested-in-affirmative-action/comment-page-1/#comment-83642 Bookworm Sat, 05 Dec 2009 01:30:36 +0000 http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=9881#comment-83642 <p>Interesting point about recognizing the need to work.  I attended a rigorous high school, and worked hard to do fairly well.  When I got to Berkeley, it was a cake walk.  I did almost no work at all and graduated <em>magna cum laude</em>, and with a little gold key to wear on a watch fob.  (It's always tweaked me to realize that, if I had actually worked even a little hard, I could have graduated <em>summa cum laude</em>.)  At that point in my academic career, I thought I walked on water.  Boy, was it a shock to get to law school and realize that you actually had to study and work hard to get good grades.  My first semester, my grades were abysmal, because I relied on my Berkeley study habits.  After that, I got my act together, worked hard, and did well.</p> Interesting point about recognizing the need to work.  I attended a rigorous high school, and worked hard to do fairly well.  When I got to Berkeley, it was a cake walk.  I did almost no work at all and graduated magna cum laude, and with a little gold key to wear on a watch fob.  (It’s always tweaked me to realize that, if I had actually worked even a little hard, I could have graduated summa cum laude.)  At that point in my academic career, I thought I walked on water.  Boy, was it a shock to get to law school and realize that you actually had to study and work hard to get good grades.  My first semester, my grades were abysmal, because I relied on my Berkeley study habits.  After that, I got my act together, worked hard, and did well.

]]> By: suek http://www.bookwormroom.com/2009/12/03/when-it-comes-to-education-liberals-continue-sadly-to-be-invested-in-affirmative-action/comment-page-1/#comment-83641 suek Sat, 05 Dec 2009 01:14:58 +0000 http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=9881#comment-83641 >>Part of the problem with black academic achievement is that many blacks don’t realize how much effort it takes to succeed in academic subjects. ... It took me some years to realize that while I could coast in high school, I had to work my posterior off in college to succeed. >>   I wonder if this isn't part of the problem as well.  Sadly, blacks who do well in high school seem to be the exception rather than the rule.  I wonder if they get a lot of praise and accolades and tend to overestimate their abilities so that college comes as a rude shock - for which they are not prepared. >>Part of the problem with black academic achievement is that many blacks don’t realize how much effort it takes to succeed in academic subjects.
… It took me some years to realize that while I could coast in high school, I had to work my posterior off in college to succeed. >>
 
I wonder if this isn’t part of the problem as well.  Sadly, blacks who do well in high school seem to be the exception rather than the rule.  I wonder if they get a lot of praise and accolades and tend to overestimate their abilities so that college comes as a rude shock – for which they are not prepared.

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