Obama and the DREAM Act

I figured out the analogy for Obama’s little end run around the Congress’ refusal to pass the DREAM Act, which sees him using an executive order to instruct the INS not to crack down on college students and service people who are in this country illegally.  It reminds me of the 18 year old who hangs around the liquor store, waiting until someone who isn’t troubled by underage drinking comes along and buys him the booze.  The fact that an adult made the purchase doesn’t clear the 18 year old of complicity in the illegal act.  It simply means that both the 18 year old and the adult have violated the law.

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  • Charles Martel

    Considering the massive number of dunderheads the colleges are issuing these days, I don’t think rewarding an illegal alien with citizenship for taking up space in a dolt factory really serves this country.

    As for bestowing citizenship on illegals who serve in the armed forces, I don’t really have a problem with it. The only teeny-tiny change I’d make would beto require illegals who enlist to accept assignment to an active battle front. That would let us quickly see who’s eager to be a citizen versus who’s eager to continue leeching off the country by having the government provide them three hots and a cot for two years.

  • SADIE

    Welcome to the Czar-nited States of America, where little boys and girls can grow up on day and become el presidente.

    No badges required….

  • Pingback: HOTAiR: Obama Administration Passes DREAM ACT by Executive Memo! Time to Melt The Phones America 202-224-3121 Stop this or RESIGN.()

  • MacG

    Book you’ve confused me:

    “It simply means that both the 18 year old and the adult have violated the law.”

    Which one is the adult in your analogy?  :)

  • http://bookwormroom.com Bookworm

    Sorry, MacG.  I meant the one old enough to buy alcohol is the adult.  The 18 year old, while old enough to drive, vote, and wage war, is not an adult for alcohol purposes.

  • Cheesestick

    Charles Martel: As for bestowing citizenship on illegals who serve in the armed forces, I don’t really have a problem with it. The only teeny-tiny change I’d make would beto require illegals who enlist to accept assignment to an active battle front.
     
     
    I have another idea.  Why not check legal status before allowing someone to enlist?  Is it really smart to allow foreign nationals into our military and train them to be warriors on the shred of hope that their end desire is to be an American as opposed to say, a well trained violent drug cartel thug?

  • http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com Ymarsakar

    Is it really smart to allow foreign nationals into our military and train them to be warriors on the shred of hope that their end desire is to be an American as opposed to say, a well trained violent drug cartel thug?

    That depends on whether it is or is not a bigger problem than American Muslims in the military fragging their officers.

    Look up the number of Muslim-American converts or nationals and how many body bags they have wracked up. How many body bags have the black and latino gang members wracked up by being recruited in the US military, against the US? Some, but not nearly as much as the Muslims.

  • MacG

    Book I was implying that the presidente (no offense to the Mexican President) is behaving in a less than adult manner.

  • http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com Ymarsakar

    El Presidente for life. Such a nostalgic title.

  • abc

    Bad analogy.  Replace the 18 year old with a 4 year old or 4 month old, strapped to the back of a mother who shoplifted in the store.  That is how those targeted by the Dream Act were “complicit” in the behavior.  Such dishonesty is why so many conservatives I know are against the Dream Act, although when presented with the more predominant fact pattern (i.e., an illegal being brought over by the parents when they were too young to know what a law is, much less that they were breaking one), they almost universally say that they would support such legislation since punishment only should accrue to those with the maturity and free will to have committed a “crime.”  Far too many illegals don’t fall under this description, so those who are against them lie about the situation to garner support.  How shameful!

  • http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com Ymarsakar

    The only people who lie in order to crush the lives of the powerless and innocent, are you A, and your compatriots on the Left. Did you forget where you have your boot stomped on?

  • abc

    Y, name my lie.

  • http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com Ymarsakar

    You must have forgotten. Back before you made some egregious errors attributing Martel, Devx, and Danny’s comments to the wrong author. You then said to justify yourself, that it didn’t really matter to you whose ideas you were addressing, so you weren’t paying attention to the name on purpose. Now, that wasn’t the lie itself. The lie was when you said that you were the open minded scientific person and the people here and in the RightoSphere are superstitious or close minded.

    The fact that you are so careless as to  try to deceive us and yourself on the matter of your superiority, when you don’t even care enough about ideas to properly attribute their source… speaks for itself.

  • Cheesestick

    ABC – If our government would enforce our laws instead of rewarding the criminal behavior of the adults and their children, there would be a lot less 4-yr olds here demanding free or significantly reduced cost educations and other benefits in the first place.  No matter how you cut it, giving out goodies to the kids of criminals IS a reward to the criminals and will only encourage more criminal behavior.  Additionally, the people who are being stuck with the bill tend to be the ones who, like the 4 year old, have committed no crime.  So again, same concept…punish those who do the right thing achieves the same as rewarding criminal behavior.

  • Charles Martel

    There’s no need to argue with analogies. The child is here illegally. Either deport him or come up with some way that allows him to become an American without ripping off law-abiding citizens and forcing them to kiss his ass by paying for his indoctrination at a government academy.

  • abc

    Y, you’re quoting mistakes (as opposed to lies) from weeks ago.  We are talking about the DREAM Act on this posting, and you said that I lied.  I repeat myself.  State the lie.

  • abc

    Cheesestick writes:
     
    “No matter how you cut it, giving out goodies to the kids of criminals IS a reward to the criminals and will only encourage more criminal behavior.”

    Maybe.  But punishing the children of shoplifters by jailing them would never be considered a viable sanction against the shoplifter.  And until we start punishing innocent children of shoplifters we should not consider punishing children of illegals since our entire criminal system and larger Judeo-Christian and secular moral systems presuppose that free will is involved for punishment to be rightly meted out.  A four year old child cannot be punished for sins of the father.  And an 18 year old that has lived the majority of their life in the US has little shot of returning to their parents’ home country since they often don’t have anyone there, so it is punishment for them to be sent to what is for them a foreign country.  Add to this discussion the fact that the illegal parents are often paying taxes, and you have a group that is as deserving of receiving state help for education as most Americans.  In any case, even if you are against the welfare of educational aid, the children ought to be granted citizenship since they are essentially Americans and personally broke no laws to be here.  Finally, consider the growing trend amongst Chinese to visit CAlifornia to birth a child here that is automatically a US citizen, that then returns to China to grow up.  I think the Mexican who has lived in America since the age of four is more deserving of that scholarship at UCLA than the Chinese who spent a totally of two weeks in the US, albeit the first two weeks of life.  But that is the law right now, and the law is problematic.  It must be changed, and the DREAM Act would be a great first step.

  • Charles Martel

    The law makes an easy distinction between a shoplifter and his child and a family that is here illegally. They occupy two distinct categories, as they should. Otherwise we’d have the problem of people entering the United States by committing a criminal act knowing that even if they are prosecuted for it, their children will be treated at taxplayer expense to a free education.

    That would be a clear case of a crime being deliberately committed for a so-called good end. Kind of like me robbing a bank to pay for my child’s operation. Because my child is faultless and my intentions were good, we should go ahead and use my robbery money for the operation.

    What smart parent would be able to resist such a set-up? But then we know Americans can’t be that stupid.   

  • http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com Ymarsakar

    I’ve already stated the lie. Do you have reading dyslexia issues, A.

  • http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com Ymarsakar

    Btw, I never said you lied about the Dream Act. So your rules don’t apply to me on this issue.

  • Cheesestick

    ABC – “Maybe.  But punishing the children of shoplifters by jailing them would never be considered a viable sanction against the shoplifter.  And until we start punishing innocent children of shoplifters we should not consider punishing children of illegals since our entire criminal system and larger Judeo-Christian and secular moral systems presuppose that free will is involved for punishment to be rightly meted out.  A four year old child cannot be punished for sins of the father.”
    Who is advocating we jail the children of people who commit crimes?  This is a false argument…no one is asking for that.
     
    ABC – “And an 18 year old that has lived the majority of their life in the US has little shot of returning to their parents’ home country since they often don’t have anyone there, so it is punishment for them to be sent to what is for them a foreign country.”
    Assuming their parents have already been sent home, they would have their parents there.  And if our laws were being enforced even a little, we would not have so many 18 year old non-Americans without a plan to deal with them.  This again is presented like people like me are the bad guy for wanting to turn a young adult’s life upside down; sending them to some foreign country.  Yet the people responsible for law enforcement passed on probably a hundred opportunities to identify and remove the adult offender (and their babies) before the babies even have a chance to spend their whole life in this country.  The real bad guys are the ones who continue to allow this to happen; and then try to blame the rest of us for not wanting “to do it for the children”.  This is a scam…
     
    ABC – “Add to this discussion the fact that the illegal parents are often paying taxes, and you have a group that is as deserving of receiving state help for education as most Americans.”
    This is the biggest problem plaguing our country right now.  All evidence shows that this group takes out far more in govt. benefits & services then they ever pay in.  And it is actually true across many sectors of tax payers; people who use medicare/medicaid, social security, tuition assistance, cash for clunkers, home buyer credits, etc. are all taking more out then they ever pay in.  So the reality is you don’t believe every person that pays in deserves to take out what they paid and then some because I’m sure you are a reasonable person who knows that won’t work.  So you must believe that some people are obligated to pay for their own education and/or benefits while other groups are to be “made equal” by forcing others to pay for their benefits.
     
    ABC – “Finally, consider the growing trend amongst Chinese to visit CAlifornia to birth a child here that is automatically a US citizen, that then returns to China to grow up.  I think the Mexican who has lived in America since the age of four is more deserving of that scholarship at UCLA than the Chinese who spent a totally of two weeks in the US, albeit the first two weeks of life.  But that is the law right now, and the law is problematic.  It must be changed, and the DREAM Act would be a great first step.”
    One issue doesn’t have anything to do with the other.  I agree the Chinese should not be allowed to do this either and is essentially fraud in the ethical sense; an abuse of the system and it should be remedied.  But just because this part of our laws are “broken” doesn’t mean we should break even more laws to allow “more deserving” criminals (or children of criminals) to have access to tax dollars because these criminals over here are getting away with it also.

  • Cheesestick

    Well darn-it…that could have been spaced out a little better.  Sorry about that!

  • abc

    Cheesestick, thanks for the thoughtful reply.  You write:
    “Who is advocating we jail the children of people who commit crimes?  This is a false argument…no one is asking for that.”

    Didn’t say you were.  But I am pointing out that the children are innocent, but are being punished when they are being deported.  Innocent people should not be punished.  Ever.  To avoid this, they should be made citizens, with certain requirements to address other policy concerns (e.g., incentivizing parents to border cross, etc.).
     
    Assuming their parents have already been sent home, they would have their parents there.”

    Big assumption.  Lots of them are now adults, and they do not give up their parents even if they themselves are “caught.”

    “And if our laws were being enforced even a little, we would not have so many 18 year old non-Americans without a plan to deal with them.”

    And if people would just stop committing crimes, we wouldn’t have to pay for prisons.  Assuming away a problem is not a solution.  Good policy and changes to existing law would be.

    “This again is presented like people like me are the bad guy for wanting to turn a young adult’s life upside down; sending them to some foreign country.”

    I don’t know you, but every conservative that I’ve raised the issue with has no good answer.  They don’t want to come out and say deport, but they don’t want to create a path to citizenship, so they want to leave them in the shadows, open to exploitation.  What nonsense.  Create a viable solution, which means a path to citizenship.  If you refuse, then you are the bad guy.

    “Yet the people responsible for law enforcement passed on probably a hundred opportunities to identify and remove the adult offender (and their babies) before the babies even have a chance to spend their whole life in this country.”

    Probably.  I love it.  You maintain an arbitrary set of facts to avoid feeling bad about punishing innocent people and refusing to create a path to legitimize those innocents.  Cognitive dissonance reigns amongst conservatives on this issue.

    “The real bad guys are the ones who continue to allow this to happen; and then try to blame the rest of us for not wanting “to do it for the children”.  This is a scam…”

    You cannot assume the problem away.  You cannot go back in time.  You cannot pass the buck.  What are you going to do?  Punish innocents or give them a path to legitimacy?  I asked Mike Gallagher, the conservative radio talk show host this on his show.  Live.  He literally hung up the phone on me and talked for 20 minutes to cover up the injustice that he is advocating.  Stop changing the subject and face reality.  Innocents need a path to citizenship.  Anything short of that is punishing the innocent, which is morally reprehensible.
     
    This is the biggest problem plaguing our country right now.  All evidence shows that this group takes out far more in govt. benefits & services then they ever pay in.”

    Show me that data.  Much of it has already been debunked.  Sources please.

    “And it is actually true across many sectors of tax payers; people who use medicare/medicaid, social security, tuition assistance, cash for clunkers, home buyer credits, etc. are all taking more out then they ever pay in.”

    Show me the data.  Show me the tax receipts versus the collections, and show me how the gap is bigger than the gap that exists for citizens.

    “So the reality is you don’t believe every person that pays in deserves to take out what they paid and then some because I’m sure you are a reasonable person who knows that won’t work.  So you must believe that some people are obligated to pay for their own education and/or benefits while other groups are to be “made equal” by forcing others to pay for their benefits.”

    The discussion is about more than welfare.  The kids who are now illegal adults, but grew up here, may not even be taking welfare.  They just want security from deportation, but the right won’t even give them that.  They prefer to punish innocents.
     
    One issue doesn’t have anything to do with the other.  I agree the Chinese should not be allowed to do this either and is essentially fraud in the ethical sense; an abuse of the system and it should be remedied.  But just because this part of our laws are “broken” doesn’t mean we should break even more laws to allow “more deserving” criminals (or children of criminals) to have access to tax dollars because these criminals over here are getting away with it also.”

    So fix the laws and state clearly what to do with innocent kids who didn’t decide to come here illegally and grow up here, but who are punished everyday for sins of the father.  And make sure that this solution puts them in a better position than the Chinese kids I have described.

  • Cheesestick

    ABC – Didn’t say you were.  But I am pointing out that the children are innocent, but are being punished when they are being deported.  Innocent people should not be punished.  Ever.
     
    No, you mean only illegals’ innocent children should never be punished…ever, right?  Because right now our nation has accumulated a mountain of debt that will have to be paid off by American children who are not even born yet.  If you think being deported w/ your parents back to their home country is punishment to the innocent children who did not have a say, than surely you recognize that you are advocating punishment against those unborn American children, whose money you are spending now on the education of people…who never mind the fact that they hate the people here and are teaming with racism & national fervor for that “foreign nation” that you think is punishment to send them to.
     
    “And if our laws were being enforced even a little, we would not have so many 18 year old non-Americans without a plan to deal with them.”
    And if people would just stop committing crimes, we wouldn’t have to pay for prisons.  Assuming away a problem is not a solution.  Good policy and changes to existing law would be.
     
    Your statement is not analogous to my statement.  I am saying if we would enforce our laws: employment laws, housing laws, voting laws and the like, this place would not be hospitable to non-citizens and they would leave and many would never come (nor bring their innocent children).  If we required proof of citizenship before providing medical care or food stamps or free clinics, etc. we would not have this problem we have now.  We are providing many incentives for people to come here and break our system and our laws.  The system is “broken” by design by the people who are luring illegals here with other people’s money.
     
    “Yet the people responsible for law enforcement passed on probably a hundred opportunities to identify and remove the adult offender (and their babies) before the babies even have a chance to spend their whole life in this country.”
    Probably.  I love it.  You maintain an arbitrary set of facts to avoid feeling bad about punishing innocent people and refusing to create a path to legitimize those innocents.  Cognitive dissonance reigns amongst conservatives on this issue.

    Please note that the “probably” was on the “hundred opportunities”; it may be only 50, it may be 200…that I do not know.  What is not arbitrary by any standard is that opportunities are being missed to enforce laws that are already on the books.  (Which was the point of this post to begin with…the pres making sure that law enforcement agencies are NOT enforcing existing laws to make sure these illegals are not being caught.)  What is also well known is that most public/govt./law enforcement agencies and hospitals are not allowed to ask a person’s status.  And any attempt to even collect info on citizenship status is met with shrieks and howls and accusations of bigotry and racism and oh you want to punish the innocent children – you morally reprehensible person.  AND THEN – you have the most unbelievable and audacious NERVE to demand that I provide data & facts to YOU??  Seriously?
     
    The discussion is about more than welfare.  The kids who are now illegal adults, but grew up here, may not even be taking welfare.  They just want security from deportation, but the right won’t even give them that.  They prefer to punish innocents.
     
    And the left makes sure to create a victim class and pump it full of as many innocent children as possible so that they can use this group as leverage for their other policies.  You keep saying the right doesn’t have a good answer or any answer, but really, we keep telling you our solution but you don’t like it so you pretend that we are trying to ignore it.  At a minimum, please recognize that you are the one who is paving the way for these innocent children to be brought to this country and put in a difficult situation.  There is no other country that allows any and all comers the way the US does but that still isn’t enough for you.  For some reason, you have a measure of compassion that only extends to law breaker’s children.  And you feel morally righteous for making Americans suffer the consequences of the law breakers actions.  Never mind I was not born in Mexico or China and have nothing to do with the conditions there that make their own citizens want to flee.

  • abc

    Cheesestick writes:
    No, you mean only illegals’ innocent children should never be punished…ever, right?  Because right now our nation has accumulated a mountain of debt that will have to be paid off by American children who are not even born yet.  If you think being deported w/ your parents back to their home country is punishment to the innocent children who did not have a say, than surely you recognize that you are advocating punishment against those unborn American children, whose money you are spending now on the education of people…who never mind the fact that they hate the people here and are teaming with racism & national fervor for that “foreign nation” that you think is punishment to send them to.”

    You are confusing ills and suggesting a false choice.  The ills of adults who illegally immigrate to this country are different than the ills of politicians and voters who insist that the government deliver more services than our current tax rates can support.  We agree that adults illegally entering the US should be stopped and deported as soon as possible after their arrival, and hopefully, we agree that their innocent children should not be punished years later for a crime they never committed.  Similarly, I hope that you agree that the current generations should accept lower government spending and higher taxes to close the deficit and stop the mounting debt, but the “sins” of people who demand to be undertaxed for a given level of government services (or demand overspending by government for the current level of taxation) are not the same sins as those committed by illegal immigrants, and they certainly have nothing to do with the innocent children of those immigrants.  Those kids can and often do pay taxes when they become employed.  So if you want to address the debt problem, then raise taxes and cut spending.  Those are the options.  Kicking out innocent people who, through no fault of their own, ended up growing up here illegally, will hardly solve our debt problems.  And it is dishonest to tie such a policy (deporting innocents) to solving it.
     
    Your statement is not analogous to my statement.  I am saying if we would enforce our laws: employment laws, housing laws, voting laws and the like, this place would not be hospitable to non-citizens and they would leave and many would never come (nor bring their innocent children).  If we required proof of citizenship before providing medical care or food stamps or free clinics, etc. we would not have this problem we have now.  We are providing many incentives for people to come here and break our system and our laws.  The system is “broken” by design by the people who are luring illegals here with other people’s money.”

    Fine, but you are ignoring what to do with productive members of society who are illegally living here through no fault of their own.  What do you do with them?  That is separate from the other issues you raise, and it is a problem that the DREAM Act was designed to solve.  But conservatives bash the DREAM Act without offering another solutions to this specific and big problems.  I’m still waiting for an answer from you on this.
     
    Please note that the “probably” was on the “hundred opportunities”; it may be only 50, it may be 200…that I do not know.  What is not arbitrary by any standard is that opportunities are being missed to enforce laws that are already on the books.  (Which was the point of this post to begin with…the pres making sure that law enforcement agencies are NOT enforcing existing laws to make sure these illegals are not being caught.)  What is also well known is that most public/govt./law enforcement agencies and hospitals are not allowed to ask a person’s status.  And any attempt to even collect info on citizenship status is met with shrieks and howls and accusations of bigotry and racism and oh you want to punish the innocent children – you morally reprehensible person.  AND THEN – you have the most unbelievable and audacious NERVE to demand that I provide data & facts to YOU??  Seriously?”

    We have decided that the chilling effect of constantly stopping legal American citizens who are mistakenly taken for illegals (because of appearance, accent, etc.) is worse than the benefits that you highlight.  That is not an irrational position to take, although you seem to think that it is, especially if you care about minority rights.  But again, you are avoiding what to do with innocent kids who are now adults living in insecurity through no fault of their own.  Enough evading.  What do you do with them if not grant them citizenship under the DREAM Act??
     
    And the left makes sure to create a victim class and pump it full of as many innocent children as possible so that they can use this group as leverage for their other policies.”

    There are millions of these cases.  No one needs to “pump it” as an issue.  It is a large problem in its own right.

    “You keep saying the right doesn’t have a good answer or any answer, but really, we keep telling you our solution but you don’t like it so you pretend that we are trying to ignore it.”

    I’m not pretending anything.  We have millions of people that were brought here as kids and now live insecurely in this country.  What do you propose we do with them?  You haven’t answered this question, but you have made up excuses for why they shouldn’t be here, but hypotheticals and finger pointing is not a solution.  What is the right’s solution??  Please state it for dumb people like me.  What should happen to that journalist, to take one example out of the millions, that just admitted that he is illegal and came here at a young age?  I really want to know, rather than pretend I know…

    ” At a minimum, please recognize that you are the one who is paving the way for these innocent children to be brought to this country and put in a difficult situation.  There is no other country that allows any and all comers the way the US does but that still isn’t enough for you.  For some reason, you have a measure of compassion that only extends to law breaker’s children.”

    You know the reason I have compassion for the law breaker’s children–it is based upon the idea that one doesn’t punish one who is not culpable, and one cannot be culpable if one had no choice in the matter.  This is the basic principle underlying all rational systems of crime and punishment that I am aware of.  And by that logic, the illegal immigrant’s children deserve not merely compassion but a path to citizenship.  But they are hardly alone in their dessert for compassion.

    “And you feel morally righteous for making Americans suffer the consequences of the law breakers actions.”

    How do Americans suffer when the children of illegal immigrants are given a path to citizenship and become productive members of society? 

    “Never mind I was not born in Mexico or China and have nothing to do with the conditions there that make their own citizens want to flee.”

    Never said you did. 

  • Cheesestick

    We agree that adults illegally entering the US should be stopped and deported as soon as possible after their arrival, and hopefully, we agree that their innocent children should not be punished years later for a crime they never committed.
    Fine, but you are ignoring what to do with productive members of society who are illegally living here through no fault of their own.  What do you do with them?  That is separate from the other issues you raise, and it is a problem that the DREAM Act was designed to solve.  But conservatives bash the DREAM Act without offering another solutions to this specific and big problems.  I’m still waiting for an answer from you on this.
     
    I haven’t finished reading your response but I’m going to answer this here so that you hear it loud and clear.
     
    No, “we” do not agree that adults illegally entering the US should be stopped and/or deported.  Especially the democrat/liberal side of the isle.  They are not arguing this at all.  That side, along with the many activist groups are saying that WE SHOULD NEVER deport people who have entered illegally.  That is why Book posted this in the first place.  Because the PRESIDENT is ordering enforcement agencies to not enforce these laws.  So how you can say that with a straight face as if you and I are on the same page is beyond me.  Your side is (and has been for a long time) dug in deep and refusing to fix the problems that are causing all of these nationless children to be growing up here.
     
    And that is why conservatives are ignoring your pleas to “help the innocent children”.  Because you are not being an honest broker; you only want us to agree to pay for lavish goodies for these poor little babies (to buy more democrat votes of course) and and all the while, you will continue to oppose any enforcement that would actually stem the tide.  Now please admit you know darn well that you and your side have no intentions of stopping these problems, right?  Because you don’t actually view it as a problem….you think millions of foreign nationals being foisted upon our country is what we deserve, am I right?

  • http://zachriel.blogspot.com/2005/07/liberal-v-conservative.html Zachriel

    Cheesestick: Because the PRESIDENT is ordering enforcement agencies to not enforce these laws.

    Actually, deportations have increased under Obama. 
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/25/AR2010072501790.html

    Just curious. Why would you want to restrict the free movement of people looking for work? Isn’t that a distortion of the market? 

  • Cheesestick

    Actually, deportations have increased under Obama.
     
    Right – and the number of wars we started has now doubled from 2 to 4 and the number of unmanned drone strikes falling on the heads of innocent women and children in these countries have all increased under Obama.  And the number of news stories criticizing the evil war mongering president is probably less than a quarter of what it was in Bush’s day.  Don’t pretend that all the protests and the constant barrage of images of Bush as hitler and blood dribbling out of his mouth did not impact his ability to fight these issues in the same manner that Obama is basically able to do without a peep out of you all.  But don’t get me wrong, I do not kid myself into thinking Bush was some tough guy regarding the border.  He did after all refer to the minutemen as vigilantes and put border patrol agents in jail.  I mailed more than a few bricks to congress (to republicans) during Bush’s term and faxed plenty of letters to.  That’s the difference between the right and left I guess.  The right stays on the right side of the issues regardless of who is in office; the left is on the left when a Repub is in office.  But now that a Liberal is in office, the left is suddenly touting increased deportation numbers as a good thing….lol.  Drone strikes – Yeah!  Unauthorized wars – yeah!  Rendition – Yeah!  Assassinations – Ye ha!!!
     
    So what are you doing to stop the tyranny of Obama?  He doesn’t care what conservatives think you know…it would mean more coming from you.

     

    Just curious. Why would you want to restrict the free movement of people looking for work? Isn’t that a distortion of the market?
     
    I know – this is where I’m supposed to think, doh!  They got me.  I’m such a hypocrite!  Whatever…
    You do know there is a difference between conservatives and the ron paul type strict no-law market force type people, right?  I never claimed to be one of them.  When we say “less government” we really just mean less…a whole lot less, but just less.  Not none.
    But now I’m curious of something also, if you really do believe in freedom of people looking for work, why not drop the minimum wage you force Americans to adhere too?  That’s a huge market distortion and it’s what basically opens the door for the importation of cheaper labor.  But you can’t drop the minimum wage, can you…because your side does believe that companies are evil and exploitative.  And without you libs standing in the gap to save unemployed Americans, by enforcing laws on companies to pay them a “living wage” instead of the amount equal to their output, than Americans would be working for, well, they might be working for…um, the paltry, exploitative wages that you want Mexicans to come here to make.  Why do you want slavery Zach?  I thought you all were nice people…  Why do you all hate Mexicans?
     
     

  • suek

    There’s more out there on the actual cost of illegals, but it’s going to be hard to find…it was a long time ago that I first ran across it…
     
    http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/jun/dhs-lies-covers-stealth-amnesty

  • SADIE

    “We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.”
     
    Mexican Democrats and cartels? ATF armed them with several thousands high powered rifles and fired the whistle blower.

  • suek

    This isn’t the one I found before, but it’ll do.  And it is at least, current…
     
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/02/immigration-costs-fair-amnesty-educations-costs-reform/

  • suek
  • http://zachriel.blogspot.com/2005/07/liberal-v-conservative.html Zachriel

    Cheesestick: Because the PRESIDENT is ordering enforcement agencies to not enforce these laws.

    Zachriel: Actually, deportations have increased under Obama. 

    Cheesestick: Right – and the number of wars we started has now doubled …

    None of that is relevant to your comment.  You suggested Obama is not enforcing the law when he has actually stepped up enforcement.

    Zachriel: Just curious. Why would you want to restrict the free movement of people looking for work? Isn’t that a distortion of the market?

    Cheesestick: I know – this is where I’m supposed to think, doh!  They got me.

    No. This is where you give a thoughtful answer so that we can better understand your position.

    Cheesestick: When we say “less government” we really just mean less…a whole lot less, but just less.  Not none.

    Yes, but that doesn’t answer the question. Why restrict immigration? It wasn’t always restricted.

  • Charles Martel

    Squiffy the Mirth Slayer

    Chapter 32: Squiff and the Zachs Coordinate Talking Points

    The phone rings in the Zachs’ house. Their mother shouts down to the basement, “It’s for youse!”

    The Zachs: “Thanks, Mom.” (They pick up the phone.) “Hello?”

    Squiffy: “Zachs, it’s abc.”

    The Zachs: “Hello. Did you know that you are calling me on a device that once was powered by steam? Also, that your name comes from the Phoenicians, who invented the alphabet?”

    Squiffy (sighing): “Yes, and did you realize that at one point you were a parasitical mass of unsentient cells that your mother, had she possessed a marginally more functional brain, would have consigned to a slop pail?”

    The Zachs: “Yes, we are aware of your love for humanity. We tend to have a soft spot for the crittters ourselves. What may we do to help you?”

    Squiffy: “What are you planning on harping on in the room today? I was thinking of going with my America is a mass murderer meme. It’s easily the one that I can connect to almost anything.”

    The Zachs: “We are not sure about that. The laughter at you from the people in the room has gone from titters and guffaws to near hysterical whoops. Maybe you could talk some more about the glorious Pipple’s Republic of China and its enlightened developmental path?”

    Squiffy: “No, I decide what is allowable. I simply wanted to see if you would coordinate your talking points with me.”

    The Zachs: “We are going with Chapter 136 of our George Bush did it discussion.”

    Squiffy: “Did what?”

    The Zachs: “It. Whatever.”

    Squiffy: “Oh, all right. Say, what are you going to wear?

    The Zachs: “We are sticking with our “Scooby Doo Is a Darwinist” bathrobes. And you?”

    Squiffy: “I’m wearing a bathrobe, too. It’s my ‘I Had an Abortion’ number. Whoa, my Harvard-educated wife is calling for me. Gotta go!”

    The Zachs: “Auf Wiedersehen!”

  • SADIE

    suek…I know. I really don’t have to look further than my local news station. In one borough, the mayor declared some sort of Marshall Law, so to speak. No more than 2-3 ‘youths’ out after 8 p.m. until 6 a.m. Of course, this has done little to stop the ‘mobs’ from rampaging, thievery, assaults and assorted crimes.

  • SADIE

    Charles Martel
     
    Why do you make us wait so long for a good script. Wait .. wait,  the reviews are just starting to trickle in. Ah yes, here’s the first one:
     
     
    You can’t fool me. I listen to public radio!

  • http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com Ymarsakar

    Man, and they said I write too much. They being the gods A doesn’t believe in, that is.

  • abc

    Cheese tick refuses to answer my question. He instead falsely claims that liberals are in favor of open borders. This is not true. Obama has defended the border better than Bush although he is more liberal than Bush. This is the problem with conservatives on this issue. No solutions. Lots of lies and distractions. They just want to profit politically from the issue while punishing innocents. Very mean spirited and par for the course. Thanks for revealing the truth about conservatives on the issue.