Putting the Left's "humanitarian" aid to Gaza in perspective

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Putting the Left’s “humanitarian” aid to Gaza in perspective

Bookworm on Jun 30 2011 at 5:53 pm | Filed under: Israel

I wish Israel would do more of these short, informative, user-friendly videos:

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58 Responses to “Putting the Left’s “humanitarian” aid to Gaza in perspective”

on 01 Jul 2011 at 5:03 am 1Zachriel

There may be valid reasons for Israel to control the flow of goods into Gaza, but the video distorts the reality. The numbers may seem large, but restricting trade limits opportunity for the Gazan people. There is little economic development in Gaza. There are a large number of people crowded into a small area, with restricted mobility in and out of Gaza, and most of them descendants of refugees. The purpose of the “humanitarian aid” is political, and is meant to publicize the problem.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 6:15 am 2Danny Lemieux

Scenes of economic devastation in Gaza. Zach knows, because they have been there and witnessed it first hand.

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001127.html

http://www.rootsclub.ps/services.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJvvkXYD12U

Do you think that the reason there is no economic development in Gaza may have to do with the fundamental corruption of the authorities and their insistence on continuously launching missiles and suicide bombers against Israel?
on 01 Jul 2011 at 11:55 am 3Zachriel

Danny Lemieux: Scenes of economic devastation in Gaza.

“No doubt they’ll sing in tune after the revolution.”
http://ellenandjim.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/zhivagoleanslarakomarovsky.jpg
on 01 Jul 2011 at 12:13 pm 4Charles Martel

How do you “publicize” the Gazans’ supposed plight by trying to smuggle in arms?
on 01 Jul 2011 at 4:20 pm 5abc

One person’s information is another’s propaganda. While Bookworm readily believes anything the IDF tells her, since she is unquestioningly pro-Israel apparently, we’ll let those honest enough to not prejudge the situation but look at the facts to make their decision on this issue.

Here are the numbers that are quickly run through in the video, so people can actually understand what was said:

1. 260 trucks per day sent from Israel to Gaza
2. 6,000 tons per day of stuff sent from Israel to Gaza
3. 400 trucks per day of capacity from Israel to Gaza
4. (from 1 and 3) we deduce that Israel is only running two-thirds of what it could run daily
5. one week in May, which may or may not be illustrative of the averages just described, Israel shipped 1,248 tons of stuff, of which 31% was food, 27% was construction materials, and 42% was other stuff from Israel to Gaza
6. a floatilla carries on average 4,000 tons of goods, which is only two-thirds of what Israel is currently shipping per day
7. the video asks, who is really helping Gaza?

Here are the facts that were left out of the video:

1. the transfers of food are not all free; based upon estimates of humanitarian shipments, at best, only half is free while the rest is purchased (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/HumanitarianAid/Palestinians/Israeli_humanitarian_lifeline_Gaza_25-May-2010.htm)
2. the population of Gaza is 1.7M (http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2011/06/04/official-report-gaza-population-1-7-million/)
3. the average person in the US eats 4.7 pounds of food per day, according to the USDA (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_pounds_of_food_does_the_average_person_eat_each_day)
4. (from 2 and 3) we deduce that 8M pounds or 4000 tons of food alone are required every day in Gaza
5. assuming that roughly 31% of the tonnage being shipped into Gaza is food (and that is probably generous, since building materials generally weigh more than food), then only 31% of the 6000 tons of stuff shipped per day is food, so 1860 tons of food are shipped in per day.
6. (from 4 and 5) we deduce that Israel is shipping in 47% of the required amount of food per day
7. Gaza only produced 30% of its required food supply (http://www.stoptheviolence.eu/Resources/Articles/tabid/71/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/177/Hamas-seeks-to-ease-Gazas-reliance-on-Israel.aspx), so there is at least a 20% shortfall that is not being filled
8. This shortfall, artfully hidden in the deceptive stats given by the IDF, coincides with numerous reports about the so-called Gaza diet and malnutrition are widespread, although totally ignored by American media since perhaps many conservatives and American Jewish people don’t want to hear about it:

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/05/05/israel-siege-puts-gaza-on-diet/
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/02/israel-martin-kramer-wants-to-put-gaza-on-a-diet/
http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/the-gaza-diet-and-the-congo-diet-and-the-zimbabwe-diet.html
http://www.forumopolis.com/showthread.php?t=99540
http://current.com/shows/current-tonight/90402907_squeeze-play-israel-keeps-gaza-on-near-starvation-diet.htm

I recognize that conditions for Arabs are not much better in many portions of the Middle East. However, Israel presents itself as a democracy and attracts leading US and European firms to invest in its country. It should hold itself to a higher standard than Syria. Yet the treatment of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip make China look like a veritable paradise by comparison.

The fact that one can back into numbers using the IDF’s own video and a simple google.com search suggests that it is really hard to hide the real facts, so that that don’t know them or confuse such propaganda with “information” must be willfully ignorant of the situation. As one conservative poster said a few weeks ago, when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I judge without the data. Apparently a lot of people do.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 4:23 pm 6abc

One person’s information is another’s propaganda. While Bookworm readily believes anything the IDF tells her, since she is unquestioningly pro-Israel apparently, we’ll let those honest enough to not prejudge the situation but look at the facts to make their decision on this issue.

Here are the numbers that are quickly run through in the video, so people can actually understand what was said:

1. 260 trucks per day sent from Israel to Gaza
2. 6,000 tons per day of stuff sent from Israel to Gaza
3. 400 trucks per day of capacity from Israel to Gaza
4. (from 1 and 3) we deduce that Israel is only running two-thirds of what it could run daily
5. one week in May, which may or may not be illustrative of the averages just described, Israel shipped 1,248 tons of stuff, of which 31% was food, 27% was construction materials, and 42% was other stuff from Israel to Gaza
6. a floatilla carries on average 4,000 tons of goods, which is only two-thirds of what Israel is currently shipping per day
7. the video asks, who is really helping Gaza?

Here are the facts that were left out of the video:

1. the transfers of food are not all free; based upon estimates of humanitarian shipments, at best, only half is free while the rest is purchased
2. the population of Gaza is 1.7M
3. the average person in the US eats 4.7 pounds of food per day, according to the USDA
4. (from 2 and 3) we deduce that 8M pounds or 4000 tons of food alone are required every day in Gaza
5. assuming that roughly 31% of the tonnage being shipped into Gaza is food (and that is probably generous, since building materials generally weigh more than food), then only 31% of the 6000 tons of stuff shipped per day is food, so 1860 tons of food are shipped in per day.
6. (from 4 and 5) we deduce that Israel is shipping in 47% of the required amount of food per day

7. Gaza only produced 30% of its required food supply, so there is at least a 20% shortfall that is not being filled

8. This shortfall, artfully hidden in the deceptive stats given by the IDF, coincides with numerous reports about the so-called Gaza diet and malnutrition are widespread, although totally ignored by American media since perhaps many conservatives and American Jewish people don’t want to hear about it:

I recognize that conditions for Arabs are not much better in many portions of the Middle East. However, Israel presents itself as a democracy (recall Bibi’s grand remarks on his last US state visit) and attracts leading US and European firms to invest in its country. It should hold itself to a higher standard than Syria. Yet the treatment of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip make China look like a veritable paradise by comparison.

The fact that one can back into numbers using the IDF’s own video and a simple google.com search suggests that it is really hard to hide the real facts, so that that don’t know them or confuse such propaganda with “information” must be willfully ignorant of the situation. As one conservative poster said a few weeks ago, when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I judge without the data. Apparently a lot of people do.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 4:48 pm 7Charles Martel

When reading statements by ideologists like abc, you always have to look for where they try to slip in a false note in the hope it will go undetected.

The false note here is the declaration that because an average American consumes 4.7 lbs. of food daily, that must mean that the average Palestinian needs the same daily amount. That is the whole basis of his argument.

Of course it falls apart when you ask a few questions:

—How much of what Americans consume daily is necessary versus elective?

—How are American and Palestinian diets divided among carbs, proteins and fats? What is the weight of those respective divisions in those diets?

—What is the average body mass of an adult American versus an adult Palestinian?

abc is free to cleverly deduce what he wants, but he should realize we are just as free to reject BS when we see it.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 5:15 pm 8suek

>>abc is free to cleverly deduce what he wants, but he should realize we are just as free to reject BS when we see it.>>

True. Nevertheless, let us give credit where credit is due…abc apparently types (keyboards? what word is currently being used?) faster even than Ymar. And I thought Ymar had to be a speed demon on the keyboard…!

Which brings to mind the monkey, the dictionary and evolutionary theory. Hmmm.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 5:23 pm 9Danny Lemieux

ABC forgets conveniently that Gaza also border Egypt.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 5:51 pm 10Charles Martel

suek, true, he’s fast on the keyboard and his quickness reveals some tells about him. Today he’s been very sloppy with his capitalization, an indication of haste brought on by what I call his “Sneer State.” For example, his dismissive answer to you in another thread tells me he’s in one of his careening-out-of-control moods where he has had it up to here with our stubborness and blindness in the face of his superior intellect.

At other times he calms down and you can see an apparently good-faith attempt to actually engage us as a mannerly adult. But that is just a tactic, and when it doesn’t work he begins crescendoing toward another Sneer State. And so it goes. Once you learn how to read him, he’s transparent and it’s easy to see the gears at work.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 6:03 pm 11abc

Let’s try this a different way, since conservatives are always looking for shelter from the inconvenient facts…

NASA estimates 880 pounds per year is the absolute minimum for an astronaut (they do this for planning a voyage to Mars), and this food is dehydrated, so it excludes the weight of water. Now water derived from food accounts for 20% of the average person’s daily 2.5 liter requirement, and one-half of a liter equals 1.1 pound, so that’s 402 pounds of water from food per year. Add that to the bare minimum of food, and you have 1282 lbs per year, which is 3.5 lbs per day. So using that figure instead, you get:

3.5 lbs * 1.7M people = 6M pounds or 3,000 tons per day. But Israel is shipping in less than 2,000 tons per day, according to the IDF, so there is still a shortfall of:

3,000 tons needed less 900 tons indigenously supplied less 1860 supplied by the Israel (IDF figure) = 240 tons

Perhaps that floatilla is needed afterall…

Further, note that the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs looked at 1Q10 data and created estimates of about 91,000 tons of food being shipped to Gaza over that 90 day period, which means that my 31% estimate is too high. If you take the MFA figures, then the shortfall is actually 1,100 tons per day.

Either way, a supplement is needed to alleviate the suffering under the Gaza diet.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 6:11 pm 12Ymarsakar

Back when Helen was here, we interrogated her enough times that she eventually started doing what A is now doing. Showing what she really thought.

Once the mask slips, Leftism becomes a lot less appealing. That’s why socialism and marxism mask their true nature with such terms as economic prosperity, pro-choice, Green environmentalism, Keynesian economics, and the catch all phrase, “Progressive”. They are progressing America… for your own good.

A thinks that reality on the ground can be mimicked by multiplying some numbers. In actuality, you need complicated derivative and anti-derivatives to model any physical phenomenon, but that doesn’t include modeling human behavior, which is unpredictable on its face given the unknown number of unknown variables.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 6:14 pm 13Ymarsakar

HAMAS functions as a humanitarian and social service in Palestine. It’s why they have support, even in Lebanon. Hizbollah is a bit stranger, due to being funded by Iran. Hizbollah is basically the covert/political arm of the Iranian secret service, or Quds force.

The amount of food Hamas appropriates and distributes, is not small.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 6:25 pm 14Charles Martel

This is just like Obama’s Keynesian economics, where 8% unemployment is promised but 9.1% becomes the new 8%.

So, abc revises his daily food allowance downward by 25%. This is progress. Then we learn that 20% of a Palestinian’s daily water requirement is supplied by his food. (So, by not shipping the amount of food that abc thinks the Jews should ship, would abc claim the Palestinians are also being denied water? Given his convoluted thinking, I wouldn’t put it past him.)

Let’s assume that the Israelis allow the peave-lovink Jew haters on the Gaza flotilla to deliver some food. (This is after it has been scoured for weapons—which even poor, doe-eyed, hungry Palestinians can’t eat.) Obviously the food will not be enough to make more than a dent in the Palestinians’ Jew-induced hunger. What will be the next step? The Israelis will be shamed into shipping more food? Obama will have a snit and cut short a golf round? What?

This is all leftist strutting, signifying nothing. Gazans will get their bellies filled once they stop attacking Israel, overthrow Hamas, and agree to quit living like savages.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 6:27 pm 15Charles Martel

peave-lovink = peace-lovink. <–With apologies to SADIE.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 6:54 pm 16Ymarsakar

I would consider poisoning the food. It’s a much favored tactic when besieging towns and cities.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 7:17 pm 17Charles Martel

Ymar, I’d go one step further: pastrami, kreplach and matzo balls only. Watch goys like abc go berserk at the whole food imperialism thing.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 8:54 pm 18Danny Lemieux

I guess the Palestinians could have used those high-tech Israeli greenhouses to grow and maybe even sell food.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/looters-strip-gaza-greenhouses/

Ooops!
on 01 Jul 2011 at 9:00 pm 19Ymarsakar

Danny, they’re a problem in need of a solution.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 9:18 pm 20abc

Charles highlights why he isn’t very bright. I set an absolute floor on what the food could possibly weigh. NASA is minimizing the weight snice it costs millions per pound to lift it to Mars, then I add 20% of water or 0.5 L to this weight to account for the water. Since the IDF is not shipping freeze-dried food to the Palestinians, this exercise is to determine the absolute minimum weight possibly sent, and it is likely well below reality. But Charles is not smart enough to understand the numbers or logic. He continues analogizing to unrelated things, amply displaying his lack of intelligence. The point of the analysis is to show that the IDF’s own numbers show that Israel is not sending enough food into Gaza. Only a blindly pro-Israeli person would believe their numbers, since they conflict with their own foreign ministry, thus raising red flags about their accuracy. But even taking those propagandist figures, we find that it isn’t enough food. So the argument fails. The floatilla is necessary, and the multiple reports about malnourishment in Gaza are true. Facts matter, and Charles cannot cite them. changing the subject only works on fools…or people who wish to remain willfully ignorant. This is why Charles is to be ignored. He not only demands evidence that he cannot himself provide, but he is actually not bright enough to even evaluate data intelligently that is supplied by others. It’s a wonder Charles can have a cogent comment about much of anything. But at least he can take comfort that his sky-dictator loves him…

By the way, since Charles apparently reads dates as badly as statistical facts, he mischaracterizes that Krugman actually predicted 10% unemployment without stimulus and 9% with the package that was passed as was plainly stated in the article supplied by Zach…so the current 9.1% makes him look prescient. When people he disagrees with make accurate predictions, he simply ignores them and continues with the lies. Fantasy over facts. Nice reasoning and logic there…
on 01 Jul 2011 at 10:36 pm 21Charles Martel

abc, I think you’re right about me. I am not as bright as you. I know that because when I try to read stuff you write, I nod off by the third of fourth sentence. Only a dolt wouldn’t stick around long enough to finish one of your brilliant pieces. I just don’t have the attention span that
on 01 Jul 2011 at 11:04 pm 22Ymarsakar

Krugman predicted that 5+5=10 and I predicted that 5+5=10.

The methodology Krugman used was 2×6=12, 12 -5 equals 10.

It actually matters how you got to the answer, not just whether the answer lines up accurately with reality.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 11:12 pm 23Ymarsakar

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Ap3q_mcIUAXy7E1laIGGahTsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20110619173431AAYVKiM

This is basically the true difference between below average intelligence and those with genius and above level intelligence.

Essentially, geniuses are geniuses because they perceive subtle points of importance that others do not. Such that non-geniuses believe geniuses actually don’t need to apply themselves to get results, while geniuses understand very well the reality of truth.

But Charles is not smart enough to understand the numbers or logic.

Understanding numbers or logic has more to do with one’s experience dealing with numbers and logic. Someone like A, that failed epistemology, is at a hopeless disadvantage here simply because he doesn’t have the talent or the hard work invested in experience.

Remember, only below average people with below average intelligence believes that all you need is “smartness” in order to achieve the unachievable or simply the difficult. What allows anyone, including geniuses, to understand numbers or logic is hard work. For geniuses they must challenge themselves with more complicated numbers and more complicated logic, simply in order to gain greater understanding of the practical uses of such. Being natively talented just means they need to put more work into the system in order to understand how it affects lesser beings. Because that’s how they are going to use the information, in the context of lesser beings that aren’t geniuses. Understanding without usability is useless to human society, genius or no genius.
on 01 Jul 2011 at 11:23 pm 24Ymarsakar

As evidence for my claims, A missed the correlation between HAMAS food distribution and Israeli supplies. 1. Palestinian intransigence automatically decreases the amount of transport capacity between points A and C. 2. Hamas has their own resource pipelines which provide food for the local communities.

If A had an above level intelligence, he wouldn’t be making the same argument that Israel is at fault for not 100% subsidizing Palestinian runaway (looting) consumption. A would have seen the need to modify his argument to include the local Hamas contribution as well, which makes it unnecessary for Israel to contribute their (full) share.

If A had been paying attention, that is…

Those with intelligence are able to make leaps of intuitive or deductive judgment between two otherwise unconnected tidbits. I brought out the Hamas link just to see if people would pick up on the inference and logical conclusion.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 4:59 am 25Danny Lemieux

ABC congratulates himself on his pristine logic and deductive reasoning but somehow still manages to ignore the fact that Gaza has an open border with Egypt through which all the food and other materials it needs (explosive belts, rockets, mortars) can pass.

It’s a perfect example of how ABC’s world view breaks down when confronted with reality.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 6:12 am 26Zachriel

Danny Lemieux: ABC congratulates himself on his pristine logic and deductive reasoning but somehow still manages to ignore the fact that Gaza has an open border with Egypt through which all the food and other materials it needs (explosive belts, rockets, mortars) can pass.

The border was just opened to civilian traffic on May 28, 2011. There are ongoing negotiations to open the border to trade. Even then, truck traffic to Egypt would be relatively expensive. Gaza is a coastal area and could use a Mediterranean seaport to allow for sufficient trade to encourage development.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 6:44 am 27Gringo

Z-Team #1
There is little economic development in Gaza.

Gazans seem to do pretty well at constructing rockets and bombs, and destroying gift horses like greenhouses, don’t they?
Gazans have further shown their interest in economic development by turning pipes intended for sewer systems into rockets.
Why should Gaza bother with economic development? They have the gravy train of “aid” to sustain them.

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/palis-use-donated-sewage-pipes-for-kassam-rockets

This article by Martha Gelhorn, formerly married to Ernest Hemingway, shows that there hasn’t been an awful lot of change in attitudes in Gaza in a half century. Z-Team, have you ever read the article?

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1961/10/the-arabs-of-palestine/4203/
on 02 Jul 2011 at 7:04 am 28Zachriel

Gringo: Gazans seem to do pretty well at constructing rockets and bombs, and destroying gift horses like greenhouses, don’t they?

Is that supposed to be an argument? Bombs are easy to construct, and when there is great political stress, then radicals become empowered. As for the greenhouses, most of those were repaired, but many were destroyed in the latest Israeli incursion there. Of course, there is no crime in America.

Gringo: Why should Gaza bother with economic development?

A reasonable point. Without a political solution, economic development will continue to stumble. On the other hand, without economic development, a political solution will remain out of reach.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 7:12 am 29Danny Lemieux

Zach jumps head first into shallow water: ”
Danny Lemieux: ABC congratulates himself on his pristine logic and deductive reasoning but somehow still manages to ignore the fact that Gaza has an open border with Egypt through which all the food and other materials it needs (explosive belts, rockets, mortars) can pass.
Zach’s reply: The border was just opened to civilian traffic on May 28, 2011. There are ongoing negotiations to open the border to trade. Even then, truck traffic to Egypt would be relatively expensive. Gaza is a coastal area and could use a Mediterranean seaport to allow for sufficient trade to encourage development.
So, according to Zach’s argument:
1) It isn’t the availability of foods and other commodities that is the issue, but the cost of transportation.

2) Zach acknowledges that Egypt put an embargo on on the Gaza Strip (why is that, Zach?), but only Israel and the Jews are to be condemned. Ah, but I forget…the Zach team are Germans. Does that have something to do with this warped world view?

FYI – Zach, Gaza is for all intents and purposes an independent state (it is also a failed state through nobody’s fault but their own). There is an easy way that Gaza could become another Macau or Hong Kong if it so wished. It could recognize Israel and swear to live in peace with Israel. To that Zach team, however, that’s just unreasonable. Also, the Egyptian embargo was only on people, not commodity supplies.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 7:24 am 30Gringo

Gringo: Gazans seem to do pretty well at constructing rockets and bombs, and destroying gift horses like greenhouses, don’t they?
Z-Team :Is that supposed to be an argument?

Yes, it is. When the Gazans spend their efforts on destruction instead of peaceful economic development, it is no surprise that there is little or no economic development. Very simple. Gazans deserve no pity whatsoever for their lack of economic development. They chose destruction, not economic development.

Z-Team re destroyed greenhouses:
Of course, there is no crime in America.

Please inform me of greenhouses destroyed in America because they had been a gift of the JOOS. I am waiting with bated breath.
If you are going to label the destroying of greenhouses as a criminal act, are you also going to label Hamas as criminal for their various acts of killing? I think not.
While the destruction of the greenhouses may be considered in some circles a criminal act, it was largely a political act. Just as the firing of rockets into Israel is best interpreted as a political act. Another example of a an act that was primarily political was Sirhan Sirhan’s assassination of Robert Kennedy. Sirhan Sirhan killed Robert Kennedy because RFK had expressed support for Israel. BTW, Sirhan Sirhan was Christian.

So have you read Gelhorn’s article from the 1961 Atlantic Monthly on Gaza yet?
on 02 Jul 2011 at 8:04 am 31Ymarsakar

Z cares a lot about “other countries”. Z really doesn’t give a damn about the US in the end. Acting like he does… only delays the inevitable.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 8:15 am 32Zachriel

Gringo: When the Gazans spend their efforts on destruction instead of peaceful economic development, it is no surprise that there is little or no economic development.

You can’t simply ignore the fact that a million children of refugees are crowded into a small area, and under siege. Of course there’s been little economic development.

Gringo: Please inform me of greenhouses destroyed in America because they had been a gift of the JOOS. I am waiting with bated breath.

In case you didn’t know it, but there’s an epidemic of pipe-stealing occurring, right now, in America.

Gringo: If you are going to label the destroying of greenhouses as a criminal act, are you also going to label Hamas as criminal for their various acts of killing? I think not.

Of course stealing pipes from greenhouses is a criminal act. Political killings or targeting civilians by Hamas are far worse crimes.

Danny Lemieux: It isn’t the availability of foods and other commodities that is the issue, but the cost of transportation.

Gee whiz. What part about the borders are closed to trade don’t you get?

Danny Lemieux: Zach{riel} acknowledges that Egypt put an embargo on on the Gaza Strip (why is that, Zach{riel}?), but only Israel and the Jews are to be condemned.

When did we blame Israel for the entire problem? Indeed, militants within Gaza are a large part of the problem. The question concerned the propaganda in the video above. The truck traffic is barely sufficient to keep the Gazans from starving, and nowhere near sufficient to constitute trade for development.

Danny Lemieux: There is an easy way that Gaza could become another Macau or Hong Kong if it so wished.

They don’t have a working seaport. What part of “blockade” don’t you understand?

Danny Lemieux: It could recognize Israel and swear to live in peace with Israel.

That’s what they should do, but as children of refugees from Israel, they have legitimate grievances that have to be addressed. It will happen one day.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 8:15 am 33Zachriel

Gringo: So have you read Gelhorn’s article from the 1961 Atlantic Monthly on Gaza yet?

Long ago.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 10:34 am 34Danny Lemieux

Danny Lemieux: There is an easy way that Gaza could become another Macau or Hong Kong if it so wished.
Zach pique peaks: “They don’t have a working seaport. What part of “blockade” don’t you understand?”

Danny Lemieux: Seaport? Neither do Lichtenstein, Switzerland or Luxembourg. Didn’t stop them from becoming filthy rich. Lack of a seaport apparently doesn’t stop flotillas from going to Gaza, either. Curious, this.
So, Zach, you didn’t answer our question: why do you blame the Israelis but not the Egyptians, if both countries blockaded Gaza?
on 02 Jul 2011 at 11:00 am 35Charles Martel

The seaport question got me to thinking about Los Angeles/Long Beach harbors and the Houston Ship Channel, both of them manmade marvels.

What’s to stop the peace-lovink progressives in Europe and Islamistan from financing an artifical harbor at Gaza? Such a construct would bypass the pesky Jooos and show the world what powerhouses of purposeful energy and intellect those wascally Palestinians really are!

How about that, Zach? Would that garner your grim, prim, didactic seal of approval?
on 02 Jul 2011 at 12:17 pm 36Ymarsakar

Mart, only if dirty Jews and capitalistic unsustainable developing countries fund it.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 1:04 pm 37Gringo

Gringo: Please inform me of greenhouses destroyed in America because they had been a gift of the JOOS. I am waiting with bated breath.
Z-Team @ #32 in reply to above Gringo comment: In case you didn’t know it, but there’s an epidemic of pipe-stealing occurring, right now, in America.

What does pipe-stealing have to do with destroying greenhouses? The act of destroying greenhouses basically consists of smashing glass.
I was talking about destroying greenhouses, and you replied by talking about stealing pipe.

If there were an epidemic of destroying greenhouses in the US- which there is not- you would have brought it up.

Gringo: If you are going to label the destroying of greenhouses as a criminal act, are you also going to label Hamas as criminal for their various acts of killing? I think not.
Z-Team @ #32 in reply to above Gringo comment: Of course stealing pipes from greenhouses is a criminal act. Political killings or targeting civilians by Hamas are far worse crimes.

Two comments.
1) Where did I or anyone on this thread say anything about stealing pipe from greenhouses? Greenhouses are destroyed by smashing glass- at least in the Ockham’s Razor approach to the issue.
2) You admit that Hamas commits criminal acts. As Hamas commits those acts as a consequence of carrying out its policy- not a bug but a feature- you have just admitted that Hamas is a criminal organization. Hamas rules Gaza.Therefore a criminal organization rules Gaza. Has any state or nation ever prospered when ruled by a criminal organization? I think not. Look at Venezuela today.

Z-Team, where in the Sam Hill did you get into this deal about stealing pipe:? I surmise it came at least in part in response to having read this sentence of mine.

Gringo @ #27: Gazans have further shown their interest in economic development by turning pipes intended for sewer systems [NOT GREENHOUSES] into rockets.
As this directly deals with pipe, I would conclude that the below sentence you composed at least in part to my #27: In case you didn’t know it, but there’s an epidemic of pipe-stealing occurring, right now, in America..

I therefore ask you: has there been an epidemic of turning sewer pipes into rockets in America?
on 02 Jul 2011 at 1:46 pm 38Ymarsakar

All Z has is a pipe. are you scared now?

Z still hasn’t figured it out. He needs helpers to allow him to figure things out. That’s rather pathetic. You could even call it morally reprehensible as societies don’t need people who are such tools and broken tools at that.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 1:47 pm 39Ymarsakar

I therefore ask you: has there been an epidemic of turning sewer pipes into rockets in America?

If there has been, I can tell you who will be the most likely targets.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 2:42 pm 40Zachriel

Danny Lemieux: Neither do Lichtenstein, Switzerland or Luxembourg. Didn’t stop them from becoming filthy rich.

Are any of those countries under a blockade?

Danny Lemieux: So, Zach{riel}, you didn’t answer our question: why do you blame the Israelis but not the Egyptians, if both countries blockaded Gaza?

Please read more carefully. The deprivations in Gaza are the *result* of the blockade, and the video above gives a very distorted view of the situation. Much of the problem is with militants within Gaza, and Israel has legitimate security concerns. Egypt was until recently under a leader with close ties to the U.S.

Charles Martel: What’s to stop the peace-lovink progressives in Europe and Islamistan from financing an artifical harbor at Gaza?

Israel has imposed a naval blockage of Gaza. The Port of Gaza was destroyed by Israel during the Second Intifada, but there are plans in the works to rebuild the port while addressing Israel’s security concerns.

Gringo: What does pipe-stealing have to do with destroying greenhouses? The act of destroying greenhouses basically consists of smashing glass.

They were stripped for parts, including pipes, pumps and sheeting.

Gringo: If there were an epidemic of destroying greenhouses in the US- which there is not- you would have brought it up.

There is an epidemic of stripping copper and fixtures from homes in the U.S.

Gringo: 1) Where did I or anyone on this thread say anything about stealing pipe from greenhouses? Greenhouses are destroyed by smashing glass- at least in the Ockham’s Razor approach to the issue.

Didn’t you read the article that Danny Lemieux introduced concerning greenhouses? The title was “Looters strip Gaza greenhouses.”

Gringo: 2) You admit that Hamas commits criminal acts. As Hamas commits those acts as a consequence of carrying out its policy- not a bug but a feature- you have just admitted that Hamas is a criminal organization.

The U.S. violated the Convention on Torture. Do you consider that a bug or a feature?
on 02 Jul 2011 at 2:51 pm 41Danny Lemieux

Zach: The U.S. violated the Convention on Torture. Do you consider that a bug or a feature?

No it didn’t! Are you an international law attorney?
on 02 Jul 2011 at 3:43 pm 42Ymarsakar

Z’s anti-American. What else is new.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 4:05 pm 43Danny Lemieux

KosKids! Same thing.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 4:32 pm 44suek

>>There is an epidemic of stripping copper and fixtures from homes in the U.S. >>

Not fixtures – electrical wire. The goal is to sell the copper for scrap, as the price of copper is very high.

That’s not exactly the same as stealing pipe in order to make bombs and RPGs to fire into another country. The problem is that the pipe they stole was intended for a project to enable them to relieve pressure on a septic lagoon, as I recall. They stole the pipe, the project wasn’t completed, and there was some damage as sewage sludge flowed into populated areas, as I recall. My memory is a big hazy though.

Just another example of a asset which _could_ have been turned to a use to benefit the Palestinians and make their lives better was instead used to assault the Jews. Their first priority – bar none – is to attack the Jews. They love death more than virtually anyone else loves life.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 4:46 pm 45Charles Martel

Zach, come on, your tu quoques are becoming famous around the Internet. Whenever any of your hero groups, like Hamas, gets caught with its hands in the cookie jar, you immediately scream, “U.S. is evil, too! U.S. is evil, too!”

Do you realize how silly that makes you look? (I know, rhetorical question.)
on 02 Jul 2011 at 5:38 pm 46Gringo

suek #44
That’s not exactly the same as stealing pipe in order to make bombs and RPGs to fire into another country. The problem is that the pipe they stole was intended for a project to enable them to relieve pressure on a septic lagoon, as I recall. They stole the pipe, the project wasn’t completed, and there was some damage as sewage sludge flowed into populated areas, as I recall. My memory is a big hazy though.
Just another example of a asset which _could_ have been turned to a use to benefit the Palestinians and make their lives better was instead used to assault the Jews. Their first priority – bar none – is to attack the Jews. They love death more than virtually anyone else loves life.

Memory Confirmation:
Hamas also neglected Gaza’s infrastructure. As a result of Hamas mismanagement, several Gaza sewer pipes burst, which flooded homes and businesses with a foul river of waste that was several yards high. Gazans were infuriated when it was learned that the Israeli-made pipes that were intended to repair Gaza’s decrepit sewage system had been sold to Hamas but used to assemble Qassam missiles and bunkers.
http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=33372
on 02 Jul 2011 at 6:01 pm 47Gringo

Z-Team, from more careful reading I will concede that the damage to the greenhouses appears to have beeen more a looting, money issue than political/vandalism. I also wonder why, when the big money issue was stealing the water pumps, you harped on the irrigation pipe- which actually may have been plastic.

Nonetheless, I stand on my criticism of Gaza and its economy. Why should we subsidize terrorists[Hamas] and criminals [Hamas et al] who refuse to accept responsibility for their poor economy, but who try to blame others? They want international aid, but they willfully destroy property and divert steel pipes intended for sewage projects to make rockets to fire at Israel. That is what I call throwing good money after bad.

If you are willing to throw good money after bad in Gaza, are you willing to subsidize willful destruction of property in the US?

As Charles Martel/Maccabeus points out , you have a standard tu quoque response. I am reminded of those who tried to criticize the tens of millions of Soviet citizens killed in the camps. “What about Jim Crow in the South?” What does that have to do with 20 millions killed in the camps? Not a damned thing.

What does stealing pipe in the Us have to do with a bad economy in Gaza? Not a damned thing.

I do not support subsidizing robbers of steel pipes in the US, nor do I support it in Gaza.

I also note that you have no response to the stolen sewer pipes turned into rockets. Crickets, crickets, crickets.

One point on tu quoque: it avoids the issue. I pointed out that nations or states run by criminal organizations do not have successful economies. Hamas, by your admission, is a criminal organization. You avoided entirely the issue I brought up.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 6:46 pm 48Zachriel

Danny Lemieux: Are you an international law attorney?

Gringo suggested Hamas had committed criminal acts. Does Gringo have to be an international law attorney to express that opinion? As for the Convention on Torture, this is the relevant text:

“For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

“Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
“No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.”

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html
Has the U.S. caused severe pain or suffering in order to obtain information?

Gringo: Nonetheless, I stand on my criticism of Gaza and its economy.

And we had already agreed to the basic point. Economic development will continue to stumble as long as there is political instability.

Charles Martel: Whenever any of your hero groups, like Hamas, gets caught with its hands in the cookie jar, you immediately scream, “U.S. is evil, too! U.S. is evil, too!”

You are confused.

Gringo: As Charles Martel/Maccabeus points out , you have a standard tu quoque response.

Sigh. This is what you said:

Gringo: Please inform me of greenhouses destroyed in America because they had been a gift of the JOOS. I am waiting with bated breath.

Zachriel: In case you didn’t know it, but there’s an epidemic of pipe-stealing occurring, right now, in America.

You pointed to looting as an example of the breakdown of Gazan society. Pointing to looting in the U.S. is more than appropriate. It happens more frequently when there is a breakdown in social stability.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 7:00 pm 49Charles Martel

Zach, if lawlessness were as rampant in America as it is in Gaza, your weak analogy might have some force.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 7:15 pm 50Gringo

Z-Team:
Gringo suggested Hamas had committed criminal acts. Does Gringo have to be an international law attorney to express that opinion?
No, I simply have to quote the Z-Team.
Let us go through the “dialogue”
Z-Team in #32 quoting Gringo: If you are going to label the destroying of greenhouses as a criminal act, are you also going to label Hamas as criminal for their various acts of killing? I think not.

Z-Team @ #32 in reply to above Gringo comment: Of course stealing pipes from greenhouses is a criminal act. Political killings or targeting civilians by Hamas are far worse crimes.

By the Z-Team’s own admission, Hamas has committed criminal acts.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 7:20 pm 51Danny Lemieux

So, Zach, in your opinion you believe that the U.S. violated the U.N. convention on torture. Or do you see it as incontrovertible fact?

Gringo, and given Z’s admission that Hamas is a criminal organization, it is curious why they believe that Hamas should be rewarded with a country to run.

Unless, of course, Z approves of criminal organizations running countries. Still curious why, in their view, they would have any objection to America’s alleged ‘crimes” – you think that Z would be applauding us for that.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 7:53 pm 52Ymarsakar

The Left is already a criminal organization and Z obviously approves of the entire platform of Leftist policies in the US, from abortion to economics to foreign policy.
on 02 Jul 2011 at 7:57 pm 53Ymarsakar

People pick up aluminum cans and trade them in for cash. Does Z consider that criminal as well?
on 02 Jul 2011 at 9:42 pm 54BrianE

abc, when calculating the dietary needs of Gazans, did you account for the fact that nearly half of the populations of 1.7 million is under the age of 14?
on 03 Jul 2011 at 3:19 am 55Danny Lemieux

Brian E, add to that that the dietary needs of older people (over 50) drop off as well.
on 03 Jul 2011 at 4:35 am 56Ymarsakar

Suicide bombing tends to decrease one’s diet.
on 03 Jul 2011 at 4:57 am 57Zachriel

Gringo: By the Z-Team’s own admission, Hamas has committed criminal acts.

And we believe that is a supportable claim. It was someone else who decided that only an international law attorney could make such a claim.

Danny Lemieux: So, Zach{riel}, in your opinion you believe that the U.S. violated the U.N. convention on torture. Or do you see it as incontrovertible fact?

The answer is found in the question you left unanswered. Has the U.S. caused severe pain or suffering in order to obtain information?
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