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	<title>Comments on: Penn State open thread *UPDATED*</title>
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	<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2011/11/10/penn-state-open-thread/</link>
	<description>Conservatives deal with facts and reach conclusions; liberals have conclusions and sell them as facts.</description>
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		<title>By: Bookworm Room &#187; Penn State and the slow death of American self-reliance</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2011/11/10/penn-state-open-thread/comment-page-2/#comment-135278</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookworm Room &#187; Penn State and the slow death of American self-reliance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=19897#comment-135278</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I have some of the smartest readers in the blogosphere, I can take a good stab at an answer.  In an open thread about Penn State, my readers chewed over the fact that in Pennsylvania, the law allows employees who witness a crime [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have some of the smartest readers in the blogosphere, I can take a good stab at an answer.  In an open thread about Penn State, my readers chewed over the fact that in Pennsylvania, the law allows employees who witness a crime [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SADIE</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2011/11/10/penn-state-open-thread/comment-page-2/#comment-135277</link>
		<dc:creator>SADIE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=19897#comment-135277</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[suek
 
To be honest, I don&#039;t know how many sit on the board. There are honorary board members such as Governor Corbett and several of his administrative staff.&lt;em&gt; 
&lt;/em&gt;
&lt;em&gt;
&lt;/em&gt;
Anyway, here&#039;s a snip and more at the rest at the link.
&lt;em&gt;
&lt;/em&gt;
&lt;em&gt;Even though Paterno himself had told the grand jury that McQueary saw &lt;strong&gt;“something of a sexual nature,”&lt;/strong&gt; Paterno said this week that he had stopped the conversation before it got too graphic. Instead, he told McQueary he would need to speak with his superior, Athletic Director Tim Curley, and with Schultz.

&lt;strong&gt;That meeting did not happen for 10 days.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://bcfoley.blogspot.com/2011/11/mike-mcqueary-in-protective-custody.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://bcfoley.blogspot.com/2011/11/mike-mcqueary-in-protective-custody.html&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>suek<br />
 <br />
To be honest, I don&#8217;t know how many sit on the board. There are honorary board members such as Governor Corbett and several of his administrative staff.<em><br />
</em><br />
<em><br />
</em><br />
Anyway, here&#8217;s a snip and more at the rest at the link.<br />
<em><br />
</em><br />
<em>Even though Paterno himself had told the grand jury that McQueary saw <strong>“something of a sexual nature,”</strong> Paterno said this week that he had stopped the conversation before it got too graphic. Instead, he told McQueary he would need to speak with his superior, Athletic Director Tim Curley, and with Schultz.</p>
<p><strong>That meeting did not happen for 10 days.</strong></em></p>
<p><em><strong></strong></em><br />
<a href="http://bcfoley.blogspot.com/2011/11/mike-mcqueary-in-protective-custody.html" rel="nofollow">http://bcfoley.blogspot.com/2011/11/mike-mcqueary-in-protective-custody.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ymarsakar</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2011/11/10/penn-state-open-thread/comment-page-2/#comment-135263</link>
		<dc:creator>Ymarsakar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=19897#comment-135263</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://neoneocon.com/2011/11/10/paterno-and-the-duty-to-report/#comment-281257&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://neoneocon.com/2011/11/10/paterno-and-the-duty-to-report/#comment-281257

I tend to agree with her analysis here. And Book has been wondering some of the same things, which is what I place priority on. The things people aren&#039;t thinking of. &lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://neoneocon.com/2011/11/10/paterno-and-the-duty-to-report/#comment-281257" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://neoneocon.com/2011/11/10/paterno-and-the-duty-to-report/#comment-281257" rel="nofollow">http://neoneocon.com/2011/11/10/paterno-and-the-duty-to-report/#comment-281257</a></p>
<p>I tend to agree with her analysis here. And Book has been wondering some of the same things, which is what I place priority on. The things people aren&#8217;t thinking of. </p>
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		<title>By: suek</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2011/11/10/penn-state-open-thread/comment-page-2/#comment-135261</link>
		<dc:creator>suek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:57:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=19897#comment-135261</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;&gt; Now that more details are coming out, it’s clear the firings are entirely justified.&gt;&gt;

Now that more details are coming out, I&#039;m wondering how long each of the members of the board have been on the board, and - assuming they were in fact members of the board for the last five years - why they should be held any less guilty.  Seems to me they should resign en masse.

Or find out where the buck stopped ....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt; Now that more details are coming out, it’s clear the firings are entirely justified.&gt;&gt;</p>
<p>Now that more details are coming out, I&#8217;m wondering how long each of the members of the board have been on the board, and &#8211; assuming they were in fact members of the board for the last five years &#8211; why they should be held any less guilty.  Seems to me they should resign en masse.</p>
<p>Or find out where the buck stopped &#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: The Citadel Military College and the Latest Allegations &#124;</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2011/11/10/penn-state-open-thread/comment-page-2/#comment-135241</link>
		<dc:creator>The Citadel Military College and the Latest Allegations &#124;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 07:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=19897#comment-135241</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the issues at Penn State, Happy Valley, and Joe Paterno&#8217;s staff, I hoped the Citadel would not be as deep. The [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the issues at Penn State, Happy Valley, and Joe Paterno&#8217;s staff, I hoped the Citadel would not be as deep. The [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ymarsakar</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2011/11/10/penn-state-open-thread/comment-page-2/#comment-135237</link>
		<dc:creator>Ymarsakar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 03:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=19897#comment-135237</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t excuse anything the individuals involved here have done. They are not beholden to me, but nor am I to them. Thus I make no judgment of things people claim happened. If you believe X over there should have done something when he was there, that basically means none of us were there and thus our opinions are not his opinions nor could it have led to any decisions on his part.

 It&#039;s legitimate to question actions after the fact when people can usually mull over their options. It&#039;s not legitimate to second guess the experiences of other people vis a vis crime as it is happening to or around them, because most people, and I&#039;m talking about you all here as well, have little to no experience dealing with real crime or criminals. Thus their view is neither expert nor particularly sound. Much of what people pick up about crime... is when they hear about it being talked about by other people on the news. Like Penn State. They lack the experience and wisdom required to make a judgment, and plus they don&#039;t have the facts of what actually happened. Maybe if they were seasoned criminal and citizen guards that deal with crime and criminals like child molestors all the time, maybe they could intuit what should have happened based upon scant evidence, but that doesn&#039;t apply here.

 So the whole prejudice thing comes from moral expectations, not realistic or sound judgment of the facts on the ground. Let&#039;s be clear about that. People who want to second guess, monday quarterback, and all that stuff just wish for people to have &quot;better&quot; behavior. They&#039;re not actually forming a judgment of how to make people have better behavior utilizing personal experiences. Morality is not truth. The facts on the ground do not always lead to a moral solution acceptable to society. Morality is dumb, basically. It doesn&#039;t know how to determine truth; it can only force people to behave or misbehave.

People think that because they went to college, they know how something like Penn State works. They have no clue. Evidence one, they had to be told about the corruption before they ever figured out. Big fat lot of good their &quot;college&quot; degrees allowed them to figure that out ahead of time. So basically, if you were ever an administrator or made hiring/firing decisions, you will more easily see why corrupt people had to be fired at Penn State. However, if you have most of your life experience dealing with crime, then you might have higher expectations rightly about how Penn State or the authority figures should have acted. But those things don&#039;t cross each other. A person that believes Penn State should be purged, is not making the same judgment as monday quarterbacking what people should have done upon witnessing what they thought was improper behavior on campus grounds. This also applies to muggings. People who have been mugged, like Robin, don&#039;t have any better judgment concerning serial killers and arsonists, just because they were knew how muggers work. One does not follow the other.

This is another example of the popular human tendency to believe their experience and expertise in A somehow magically transfers over to all kinds of other human fields and experiences. It doesn&#039;t.




]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t excuse anything the individuals involved here have done. They are not beholden to me, but nor am I to them. Thus I make no judgment of things people claim happened. If you believe X over there should have done something when he was there, that basically means none of us were there and thus our opinions are not his opinions nor could it have led to any decisions on his part.</p>
<p> It&#8217;s legitimate to question actions after the fact when people can usually mull over their options. It&#8217;s not legitimate to second guess the experiences of other people vis a vis crime as it is happening to or around them, because most people, and I&#8217;m talking about you all here as well, have little to no experience dealing with real crime or criminals. Thus their view is neither expert nor particularly sound. Much of what people pick up about crime&#8230; is when they hear about it being talked about by other people on the news. Like Penn State. They lack the experience and wisdom required to make a judgment, and plus they don&#8217;t have the facts of what actually happened. Maybe if they were seasoned criminal and citizen guards that deal with crime and criminals like child molestors all the time, maybe they could intuit what should have happened based upon scant evidence, but that doesn&#8217;t apply here.</p>
<p> So the whole prejudice thing comes from moral expectations, not realistic or sound judgment of the facts on the ground. Let&#8217;s be clear about that. People who want to second guess, monday quarterback, and all that stuff just wish for people to have &#8220;better&#8221; behavior. They&#8217;re not actually forming a judgment of how to make people have better behavior utilizing personal experiences. Morality is not truth. The facts on the ground do not always lead to a moral solution acceptable to society. Morality is dumb, basically. It doesn&#8217;t know how to determine truth; it can only force people to behave or misbehave.</p>
<p>People think that because they went to college, they know how something like Penn State works. They have no clue. Evidence one, they had to be told about the corruption before they ever figured out. Big fat lot of good their &#8220;college&#8221; degrees allowed them to figure that out ahead of time. So basically, if you were ever an administrator or made hiring/firing decisions, you will more easily see why corrupt people had to be fired at Penn State. However, if you have most of your life experience dealing with crime, then you might have higher expectations rightly about how Penn State or the authority figures should have acted. But those things don&#8217;t cross each other. A person that believes Penn State should be purged, is not making the same judgment as monday quarterbacking what people should have done upon witnessing what they thought was improper behavior on campus grounds. This also applies to muggings. People who have been mugged, like Robin, don&#8217;t have any better judgment concerning serial killers and arsonists, just because they were knew how muggers work. One does not follow the other.</p>
<p>This is another example of the popular human tendency to believe their experience and expertise in A somehow magically transfers over to all kinds of other human fields and experiences. It doesn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Adams</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2011/11/10/penn-state-open-thread/comment-page-2/#comment-135236</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 03:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=19897#comment-135236</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Generally speaking, the news of other people&#039;s sin is supposed to be the signal to search our own souls, not to assure ourselves that we would do differently, but to find the weakness, the bad leaven, that would cause us to behave the same. I am hard pressed to do that, here. McQueary is ten inches taller than I am, and I am damned sure that I could stop  the rape of a little boy, or, at the very least, make it much less fun. McQueary did  nothing.  It&#039;s a funny thing, but the academic departments like to belittle the intellects of the athletes. Sound to me like the athletics  faculty for rationalization was equal to anything the academic faculty could muster.
 
While ripping a scab off the athletic program at Penn State does not offer us many individual moral lessons, it is definitely true that it reveals a depth of moral necrosis in academia that many people will try to say is vastly different from their own establishments, as Americans saw the corruption of New Orleans exposed, policemen who  did not report for duty because they never existed, evacuation plans never implemented, levy improvement funds piddled away, all of which exist in dozens of American cities, and all people could see was George Bush&#039;s supposed racism.
 
The lesson is there, if we would but learn it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Generally speaking, the news of other people&#8217;s sin is supposed to be the signal to search our own souls, not to assure ourselves that we would do differently, but to find the weakness, the bad leaven, that would cause us to behave the same. I am hard pressed to do that, here. McQueary is ten inches taller than I am, and I am damned sure that I could stop  the rape of a little boy, or, at the very least, make it much less fun. McQueary did  nothing.  It&#8217;s a funny thing, but the academic departments like to belittle the intellects of the athletes. Sound to me like the athletics  faculty for rationalization was equal to anything the academic faculty could muster.<br />
 <br />
While ripping a scab off the athletic program at Penn State does not offer us many individual moral lessons, it is definitely true that it reveals a depth of moral necrosis in academia that many people will try to say is vastly different from their own establishments, as Americans saw the corruption of New Orleans exposed, policemen who  did not report for duty because they never existed, evacuation plans never implemented, levy improvement funds piddled away, all of which exist in dozens of American cities, and all people could see was George Bush&#8217;s supposed racism.<br />
 <br />
The lesson is there, if we would but learn it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Devx</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2011/11/10/penn-state-open-thread/comment-page-2/#comment-135231</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Devx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=19897#comment-135231</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Charles M said #70: When the chickenshit McQueary reported what he had seen, Paterno knew full well what Sandusky had been up to. JoPa showed his own moral cowardice by kicking the issue upstairs.

Charles is spot on.  All the Penn State higher ups already knew about Sandusky before this shower rape incident.  They already knew!  The assistant coach may have frozen at the moment of moral decision - and collapsed - but the higher ups deliberately turned their back on these poor kids.  Now that more details are coming out, it&#039;s clear the firings are entirely justified.
 ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charles M said #70: When the chickenshit McQueary reported what he had seen, Paterno knew full well what Sandusky had been up to. JoPa showed his own moral cowardice by kicking the issue upstairs.</p>
<p>Charles is spot on.  All the Penn State higher ups already knew about Sandusky before this shower rape incident.  They already knew!  The assistant coach may have frozen at the moment of moral decision &#8211; and collapsed &#8211; but the higher ups deliberately turned their back on these poor kids.  Now that more details are coming out, it&#8217;s clear the firings are entirely justified.<br />
 </p>
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		<title>By: Charles Martel</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2011/11/10/penn-state-open-thread/comment-page-2/#comment-135228</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Martel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Nov 2011 20:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=19897#comment-135228</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What Duchess said is spot on. I don&#039;t have an ounce of sympathy for Paterno. When the chickenshit McQueary reported what he had seen, Paterno knew full well what Sandusky had been up to. JoPa showed his own moral cowardice by kicking the issue upstairs. Had Penn State actually done something about Sandusky&#039;s rapes, Paterno could have plausibly said that he was not the one who&#039;d fingered his good ol&#039; buddy.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Duchess said is spot on. I don&#8217;t have an ounce of sympathy for Paterno. When the chickenshit McQueary reported what he had seen, Paterno knew full well what Sandusky had been up to. JoPa showed his own moral cowardice by kicking the issue upstairs. Had Penn State actually done something about Sandusky&#8217;s rapes, Paterno could have plausibly said that he was not the one who&#8217;d fingered his good ol&#8217; buddy.  </p>
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		<title>By: Duchess of Austin</title>
		<link>http://www.bookwormroom.com/2011/11/10/penn-state-open-thread/comment-page-2/#comment-135223</link>
		<dc:creator>Duchess of Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bookwormroom.com/?p=19897#comment-135223</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sorry, but what is it that is confusing about what one should do when a 6&#039;4&quot;, 250 pound former quarterback *walks in* on an old guy standing naked over a *child* who is turned to the wall with his hands on it, as he is hearing rythmic *slapping noises?*  Huh?  What is confusing about *stop the attack?&quot;  Why should anybody cut this man-boy any slack at all for not doing the right thing?
 
Why should McQueary, or *anybody else* associated with what must have been an open secret in the football community, be excused for their appalling lack of judgement?  
 
McQueary did what he did to protect numbers 1 and 2.  Himself and Paterno.  He was rewarded for his silence with a cushy coaching job and all the perks that go with it.  There is *nothing* confusing about that and all the wishy-washy wussies claiming &quot;fight or flight&quot; syndrome are just full of it.  The bottom line is that the program had to be protected at all costs and the kids were merely collateral damage.  Paterno and Sandusky were good friends for years and Paterno must have had some idea of what a monster Sandusky was when he was forced into *retirement* at the age of 55, well over 10 years ago.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but what is it that is confusing about what one should do when a 6&#8217;4&#8243;, 250 pound former quarterback *walks in* on an old guy standing naked over a *child* who is turned to the wall with his hands on it, as he is hearing rythmic *slapping noises?*  Huh?  What is confusing about *stop the attack?&#8221;  Why should anybody cut this man-boy any slack at all for not doing the right thing?<br />
 <br />
Why should McQueary, or *anybody else* associated with what must have been an open secret in the football community, be excused for their appalling lack of judgement? <br />
 <br />
McQueary did what he did to protect numbers 1 and 2.  Himself and Paterno.  He was rewarded for his silence with a cushy coaching job and all the perks that go with it.  There is *nothing* confusing about that and all the wishy-washy wussies claiming &#8220;fight or flight&#8221; syndrome are just full of it.  The bottom line is that the program had to be protected at all costs and the kids were merely collateral damage.  Paterno and Sandusky were good friends for years and Paterno must have had some idea of what a monster Sandusky was when he was forced into *retirement* at the age of 55, well over 10 years ago.</p>
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