Is/Was American the greatest society ever?
Don Quixote on Jun 13 2008 at 10:11 pm | Filed under: America
I asserted the other day that it was a “fact” that America built the greatest society the world has ever seen and Ozzie reasonably asked me to prove this was a fact and not merely my opinion. He has a point, but let’s see what facts we can offer.
It is, of course, opinion that America created the greatest form of government and greatest constitution ever, but it is a fact that dozens of countries have patterned their constitutions after ours. It is a fact that no society can boast the 200 year history of freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion that we have.
Ozzie rightly points out that some of this freedom has been lost in recent years. In fact, the point of my earlier comment was that the greatest society ever has been eroded in recent years. The greatest society ever was the America of the 1940′s through 70′s. We have gone downhill in a host of areas since then.
Slavery is the greatest scar on our constitution but no other society can boast of a Civil War in which so many white men died to free black slaves. As an aside, there is a myth that, as Helen put it, “Our (white people’s) riches were made by the (free) slave labor of African Americans.” Nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is that by the time of the Civil War the free northern states had economically far outstripped the slave southern states. And, of course, at the time of the Civil War, all of America was an economic backwater. Our great riches were created only after the elimination of slavery. Our riches resulted from our freedom, not our slavery.
It is a fact that at least the America of the 1940′s though 70′s was the most prosperous the world had ever seen. It is a fact that the America of that time, and even today, created the greatest military the world has ever seen.
I know without even bothering to look that it’s a fact that more Americans have won Nobel prizes than citizens of any other nation, and by a very wide margin. Americans invented everything from the telephone to teflon. Americans were the first to fly and the first (and so far only) to walk on the moon. What we didn’t invent, we perfected. More important medical breakthroughs were made by American than by any other country, both technological breakthroughs and cures. Americans harnessed the atom, for better and worse.
An American first proposed the League of Nations and America gave a home to the United Nations.
Whenever there is a disaster anywhere in the world Americans are first in line to help.
Someone pointed out in the thread than contained Ozzie’s and my comments that the average poor person in America has a larger homes than the average person in Europe. A comedian once point out that America was the only country whose poor people were fat.
In a sense, of course, Ozzie is right. It is merely my opinion that it is a fact that America created the greatest society ever seen. But, I’m sure if the Bookwormroom readers put your minds to it you can come up with hundreds of facts to support that opinion. At some point the weight of these facts becomes so overwhelming that there’s not much room left for difference of opinion. Help me out here. What irrefutable facts support, or for that matter oppose, the theory that America created the greatest society ever seen? Thanks in advance for your comments.
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The most “democratic” and powerful fact of all. People vote with their feet.
More people from more countries at more economic and educational backgrounds work hard to get into this country than anyplace else on Earth. Ever.
As a related aside we should note that more poor immigrants come here, work hard and wind up in a far better economic position for themselves and their children than in anyplace else on Earth. Ever.
So in addition to talking about what America has done, we can also note how the majority of the immigrants (and immigrant wannabes) of the world view America. Namely: as the best place to be.
The best ever? I don’t know, and I don’t care.
I worked overseas for four years in Latin America. I was fluent in Spanish, and picked up a little of a Guatemalan Indian language.
I went to Latin America, ashamed of the bigotry and racism in my home country. That may be the case but the US is not the only sinner in that regard. In Latin America I was invited into two homes that featured prominently displayed portraits of Hitler, something I have never seen in the US. I heard attitudes expressed towards Blacks and Indians in Latin America that could only be described as racist. At the same time, I saw much evidence of interracial marriage, and much evidence of people of different races working and living together in harmony.
In one country an elderly Black woman called me a “white m.f.c.” for wearing Bermuda shorts- which were extremely common on males in that country. At the same time, I saw plenty of evidence of cross-racial harmony in that particular country. There is no easy answer.
I simply returned to the US with the idea that ethnocentrism was for better or worse, somewhat universal, as was brotherhood. No easy answers. Just do the best you can, and don’t feel guilty about it.
I no longer viewed the US as the GREAT SINNER. From outside the US, it looks pretty damned good. Ethnic groups that outside the US would be at eacher others’ throats, live in harmony in the US.
Compared to Latin America, the common man in the US has a much better opportunity to better himself and to also get efficient , fair treatment from his government.
My “progressive liberal” opinions did not withstand the reality of working overseas. I view the carping liberals of our country as ignorant provincials. All carping liberals would benefit from working overseas, which would test their “progressive” assumptions.
Here is the link for the housing stat for the poor in the US compared to the average European. I hope the software doesn’t once again eat my post.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/welfare/bg2064.cfm
I did not embed any links, and the damned software STILL ate my post. %$%$%$$%#% Consider this editorial comment on this software.
Here is the link for the housing stats of poor Americans versus average Europeans.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/welfare/bg2064.cfm
“The greatest society ever was the America of the 1940’s through 70’s. We have gone downhill in a host of areas since then.” -D.Q.
Well, that’s a horse of a different color.
World War II devastated Europe and helped give rise to America as a super power.
And, in time, America helped bring the only other Superpower, the Soviet Union, to its knees by funding Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. (Damn that blowback)
Why did America’s star shine brightest from the late 1940s through the 1970s? In addition to the cost of protracted war on previous superpowers, the cost of oil comes to mind.
Last month, in an article entitled, “An Oil-Addicted Ex-Superpower,”
author Michael T Klare asserted the following:
“From the end of World War II through the height of the Cold War, the US claim to superpower status rested on a vast sea of oil. As long as most of our oil came from domestic sources and the price remained reasonably low, the American economy thrived and the annual cost of deploying vast armies abroad was relatively manageable. But that sea has been shrinking since the 1950s. Domestic oil production reached a peak in 1970 and has been in decline ever since – with a growing dependency on imported oil as the result. . . By now, we are transferring such staggering sums yearly to foreign oil producers, who are using it to gobble up valuable American assets, that, whether we know it or not, we have essentially abandoned our claim to superpowerdom. ”
(To anyone who believes such talk is merely “propaganda,” I’ve got Crystler Building to sell you).
Will America be spared the cost of protracted war? Will American ingenuity (i.e the development of alternative resources) save the day? Or will cries of ‘Were’ No. 1″ continue to blind Americans to some cold hard truths?
And yes, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are MARVELS, I agree. Which is why I cringe when I hear people say “The Constituition is not a suicide pact.”
We’ve gone from “Give me Liberty or give me death,” to cries of “When my neck is REALLY in danger, I’d prefer Big Daddy to protect me, thank you very much.. .”
The Bill of Rights made America unique. But, as Tommy Franks explained, the Constitution won’t withstand a major terror attack.
“the US claim to superpower status rested on a vast sea of oil”…by this logic, one would expect Venezuela and Saudi Arabia to be economic dynamos.
Where else are people on welfare fat instead of emaciated? Where else can a lunatic pastor freely rant from the pulpit ‘G-d America’ and not only not get arrested but have his most famous parishioner of twenty years get the Democratic nomination for President? And keep the churche’s tax free status to boot?
A great nation looks beyond it’s sovereign borders and America has seen herself as blessed to be a blessing. That has been the brightest jewel in her crown. America is great because she knows the difference between conquest and liberation. America HAS created the greatest society, because it was founded by people with belief in God, great strength of character, and their vision was boundless. It didn’t stop at their own front door but encompassed their posterity. I trace our greatness to our Bill of Rights and founding documents, of course, and the ‘rule of law, not of men’. (This week’s SCOTUS decision is the rule of 5 bloated, over-reaching egos, but I digress.)
This will go in a little different direction than the posed question BUT – The family has, until now, been America’s bedrock. The powerful influence of a strong family unit in building each generation has indeed worn thin, and now the 60s radicals run the asylums where a new generation is being indoctrinated. The absence of fathers has devastated the family. Feminized men and petulant women did not found this nation, nor can they keep it free. When ‘it’s all about me’ and ‘what can the government give me’ from someone else’s pocketbook?’ we’re cooked. So the question isn’t really – to me – if American is the greatest nation, but how long before we succumb to those among us on our own soil who would not be great and see being great as a great evil?
An American first proposed the League of Nations and America gave a home to the United Nations.
Those are negative traits worthy of the worst civilization, not the best.
What irrefutable facts support, or for that matter oppose, the theory that America created the greatest society ever seen?
All you have to do is to look at how cr*py other nations and civilizations are, to get a relative scale of things.
World War II devastated Europe and helped give rise to America as a super power.
Europe devastated Europe. Which is consistent with a society that is corrupt, decadent, weak, as well as being foolishness enough to blow themselves up.
The fact that America had to get powerful in order to fix other people’s problems is not a negative thing. It’s called productivity and hard work.
(Damn that blowback)
It is extremely ignorant and naive to claim that helping Massoud in Afghanistan created “blowback” except for Massoud when he got assassinated by Al Qaeda, supposedly our enemies. Talking about the blow back from helping Massoud and that this somehow also helped AL Qaeda, is rather beyond tolerance.
“When my neck is REALLY in danger, I’d prefer Big Daddy to protect me, thank you very much.. .”
What a disgrace to ethics and the Founding Fathers. To have produced a generation so self-absorbed that they will sacrifice millions simply to keep their hands clean.
It depends, of course, on what you mean by a “great” and/or a “prosperous” society: you’re conflating the two. (If by “great” you MEAN “prosperous,” then that’s another matter.)
You see slavery as being a great “scar” on our constitution, but the people who wrote that instrument lived in their time, not ours. They worked to the morals and mores of their time, not ours. For that time it was more the norm than anything unusual, and it isn’t fair to deal with it any other way. (Owning slaves was not unusual behavior for millennia, it goes back as far as civilization does. NOT owning them is a phenomenon only of the last couple of hundred years. It’s unfair to put the arm on anybody for that.)
In the pure prosperity spehere, I’ll agree with Ozzie and disagree with you on the same point: our riches coincided nicely with the elimination of slavery, yes – but that had nothing to do with it. Our riches coincide even more nicely with Edwin L. Drake drilling a hole near a surface seep in northwestern Pennsylvania in August of 1859. The industrial revolution was already under way, powered by wood, coal, and water – but this stuff was a snap to get and transport, and it had a million uses. America had a hell of a lot of it, too.
Of the nations that started down the industrial path in the nineteenth century, America was by far the best endowed with oil. For the first 65 years of the twentieth century, America produced, exported, and burned more of it than anyone – and there’s your prosperity.
The “greatness” is a little more subjective and difficult to quantify, but I’ll agree that we more often showed signs of it than most. There was absolutely no necessity for us to go fight with the Kaiser or Hitler; neither one of them had done – or could do – anything to bother us. With today’s democrats in charge we wouldn’t have done it. But ending the wars and stopping the slaughter in Europe was the RIGHT thing to do, and we did. At some cost.
Inventions, breakthroughs, generosity – yes. All a measure of greatness, and all found here more routinely than anywhere else – ever. Much as the rest of the world allegedly dislikes us, they continue to knock the doors down trying to get here.
Our constitution has proven capable of enduring practically everything except our own witless courts, and the only older society on the planet continuously governed in the same way without major upheaval is England. (I do have to laugh when I hear people blathering about what a “young” country America is. Our institutions have been in place longer than anyone’s except, as noted, England’s – so far from being “young” we are in fact the second-oldest nation in the world. Not culturally, but institutionally. We are stable: we don’t go in for riots, revolution, and overthrow.)
And, by the standard of how the rest of the world defines the term, there is no poverty in America. There would be less even by our own standards if we did not do things like throw $18 billion at Africa in an effort to help them out with HIV.
But we do, even knowing most of it will be stolen or squandered, because we are caring and generous, and have a history of trying to help out. That, while often misguided, may indeed be “great.”
America produced, exported, and burned more of it than anyone – and there’s your prosperity.
Burning energy is a result of prosperity, not the cause of it. You have your data points mixed up.
Having energy to burn leads to prosperity.
I think it’s one of those circular things – Our continued prosperity requires energy to burn, which in turn helps to cause prosperity.
Oil was not a major energy source until 1910-1920 at the earliest. At the turn of the 19th century, trains ran on coal, factories mostly ran on coal or hydropower, electricity was produced from the same two sources, ships were mainly coal-powered with some surviving wind. The steel industry was almost entirely coal-fired. Farming was done with the aid of horses and mules.
Oil was used mostly for home lighting.
Yet would anyone argue that in 1900 the U.S. was not a major and fast-growing economic power?
It is certainly true that America’s wealth of natural resources (coal, at least as importantly as oil) gave us an advantage. But what makes us unique is what we’ve done with those resources. Many nations have been rich in resources, but none have done what we have done. Having energy to burn helps, but it does not automatically lead to prosperity. It’s no accident that, as Tiresias noted, an American figured out how to get the oil out of the ground and Americans perfected its uses.
Marguerite, I loved your post. But our strength is not just in our Christian roots but in our religious tolerance. True, that tolerance has now led us to tolerate, if not embrace, those who not only do not share that tolerance, but will destroy us if they are able. But, for most of our history our tolerance was a huge advantage. Not only did we not waste time and energy fighting each other over religion, we made the best and brightest of all religions feel welcome here. And you are right that our stable families (until recent years) have added to our strength as well.
Several people commented on immigration. America has benefited enormously from the contributions of our immigrants who (again, until recent years) believed in America and American values more strongly that even those born in America. These immigrants worked so hard to provide for their families and at the same time built America. Here is one of those “circular things,” as Marguerite called them. America attracted hard working, honest people because America was truly the land of opportunity for those who would work hard. And the people America attracted made America an even better place for future generations.
Ozzie
To begin with, doesn’t anybody else deem it odd that to buttress his opinion, he cites anothers opinion?
The article is nothing more than opinion, with absolutely no cites to back up his assumptions and declarations.
Hers a link to the article.
http://tinyurl.com/64u9xn
Hers the Wikipedia link to the author he cites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Klare
Perhaps Ozzie does not remember the 80′s, when the concerns were the Japanese and the fear of them buying the entire country.
I will go you one better. How about Pebble Beach?
http://tinyurl.com/4tle88
I guess the point of all this boils down to ones outlook on life. Polls have consistently shown conservatives to be happier lot.
The doom and gloom crowd has always been around and will always be around.
I prefer the optimist’s view of life and to that end, to argue that we are not the greatest form of self government is absurd.
America is the greatest society that ever is and was, and although the nation has had serious character flaws from the onset, the framers of the constitution wisely built into its very core the elasticity to grow and become better still. Our nation has not yet reached its potential, yet hope abounds.
I find this discussion extremely interesting, but I’d like to approach it from a slightly different perspective. It’s not whether this society is the greatest one or not, it’s the aspiration of many of it’s people to make it great that counts. Without aspiring to greatness it’s impossible to achieve it.
Of course it occurs in fits and starts, but I would argue that Americans are some of the most rebellious people on the planet and are constantly advocating for ourselves to do better.
To name just two of the rebellious actions that have happened in my lifetime: the civil rights movement, the green movement. In both cases profound changes in how we did things, and looked at them, were drastically changed.
I only fear for America when we stop arguing about how to make things better.
The society itself is only a means to an end and is often only as strong as its weakest member. For nations, however, it matters more the strength of the leaders.
In society, there are too many people of independent minds and geography for one leader to tell everyone what to do for ill or better. For the American nation, that is not true for we have plenty of political masters to tell the rest of us what to do. Thus the quality of the nation’s future often depends on the choices of those leaders.
Having energy to burn leads to prosperity.
Creating a steam engine that needs energy increases productivity. You can burn as much wood or coal in the outback as you want, but all you’ll do is end up living like savages and barbarians who have to eat hand to mouth.
Energy matters in creating prosperity only because there is a way to turn energy into work. Work meaning useful things done.
Creating heat is not in itself a requisite of prosperity.
First, anyone that would look to Europe as a model society lacks the perspective of having actually lived the experience rather than having experienced the veneer of visiting. It takes years to fully appreciate what living in Europe means.
American Democrat/Leftists especially love to look at Sweden as a model socialist society but that did not really begin until the socialists took power in the 1970 and started bleeding the wealth that Sweden had accumulated up to that period (including from its collaboration with Nazi Germany, a collaboration that left it un-scathed from WWII. Up that point, it was Europe’s wealthiest economy – a wealth that socialism has steadily eroded right along with its democracy. Today, islamism is rising and jack-booted Left-wing thugs beat-up democrats that threaten the socialist order.
So, how does “model” Sweden compare economically with the U.S.? Let the Swedish economic think tank, TIMBRO, tell us what being poor in America means….
http://www.awb.org/articles/presidentscolumn2004/european_union_vs_america.html
As far as what makes this country great, I agree with all the points raised above and more, but let me offer this anecdote:
I have a neighbor who is a Pakistani immigrant from the (now violently Islamic) Pashtun North of Pakistan. He arrived in the U.S. by jumping from a freighter in Virginia. He began with $100 in his pocket and working a menial job at the Pakistani embassy. He retired as a bank vice president. He married a beautiful Ecuadorian Catholic immigrant who worked as a maid in the Washington, D.C. They raised a beautiful, intelligent and successful crop of kids in “both Catholic and Islamic” traditions. However, one thing that did bother me about my neighbor was that he could not let go of his (Islamic) antipathy toward Jews…he would grumble about “the Jews” a lot. His daughter went to college, got an advanced degree and married…a Jew. My neighbor absolutely loves his son-in-law and his grandchildren by his daughter. I don’t hear him say anything negative about the Jews anymore. Their family gatherings bring together three of the world’s warring faiths under a single, warm. loving roof.
Only in America!
Allen – I agree about civil rights, but the green movement was and is a hoax not based on science. The endgame, in my opinion, is control over lives and life styles that do not comport w/the leftist’s belief system. And controlling individual lives and micro managing daily decisions is not what made America great.
Don Q – I didn’t say Christian, but belief in God, which I hoped would cut a much broader swath.
What a great discussion.
Thanks to Danny Lemieux for coming across an article that cited the Swedish Timbro Institute study-even if the link was bad-which I had come across some years ago and couldn’t remember where. Here is a quote. This is where I had originally come across the stat that the poor in the US have larger living units than the average European.
I don’t see the point of beating my breast about the US, but I have no intention of supinely accepting the criticism of a bunch of arrogant , ignorant EUROSNEERS. The Timbro Institute study provides ammunition against EUROSNEERS.
“What does it mean to be poor in the USA? Major living standard surveys carried out in the USA at regular intervals show the poor to have a surprisingly high standard of living;…..Material prosperity, in other words, is high and not associated with the material standard of living which many people in Europe probably associate with poverty. Good economic development, in other words, results in even poor people being relatively well off. Quite simply, it is better to be poor in a rich country than in a poor one.”
http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf
Here is a good link for the article that Danny cited, about the Timbro Institute.
“According to a recent report by two economists at Sweden’s Timbro Institute, the quality of life in Europe is pretty bad. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower per capita GDP than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, if the European Union were a state in the United States, it would be among the poorest, on a par with Arkansas, Mississippi or West Virginia.
It is true that most Europeans work less than Americans. It is also true that they have less to show for it……How does this compare to Europe? According to authors, at least 40 percent of all European households would be considered poverty-stricken in America.”
Note that the Timbro Institute study is based on purchasing power parity, which would by and large negate the fall in the dollar since the study came out.
http://www.awb.org/articles/presidentscolumn2004/european_union_vs_america.htm
Marguerite,
I speak to the green movement that pre-dates the folks who absconded with it. Most of the aspects of “environmentalism” predate the leftist adoption of it. The roots of the clean air and water acts go back to the 40′s and 50′s similarly habitat protection for bio-diversity.
This was unprecedented, and I would note the original idea was “conservation.” Rightfully, Americans realized the importance of these things, and acted upon it.
I would offer for proof: what other nation has set aside vast amounts of land as public and inviolate. In fact when you think about it our green movement goes back to Teddy Roosevelt.
Ozzie re #5
I’ve just dipped into this thread, and think the answer is America is whatever it is to whomever thinks about this question, and no number of facts is going to sway most people. America is like an ocean, totally unconcerned with what people think, it just does what it does. Some people sail great distances, catch loads of fish, and some see nothing but obstacles, opportunities lost or already taken by somebody else already, and impending doom. (Nice excuse that.) The ocean just continues to do what it does.
You wrote:
“World War II devastated Europe and helped give rise to America as a super power.”
Baloney. Yes, we ramped up our industry and agriculture, and became the arsenal of Democracy, and yes, Europe was devastated after the war, but you forget that 170 years earlier we defeated arguably the greatest empire in history — twice.
We didn’t do that with industrial, and military might. We did it with who we were, and still are, and with an idea that’s unstoppable in the hands of people with the right stuff.
And who were/are they? People who had LEFT where they were to start a new life in the largely unknown New World across an ocean, which was considerably more dangerous than it sounds today. Most of them knew they’d never be able to go back. But they came anyway. The right stuff. That’s what wins wars, and builds strong democracies.
“And, in time, America helped bring the only other Superpower, the Soviet Union, to its knees by funding Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan.”
Oh, Please. We brought the USSR to its knees by outspending them militarily. We pretty much buried them militarily without breaking an economic sweat. They, on the other hand, poured almost everything they had into their military, and their people knew it. The people, Ozzie. Their own ridiculous managed economy never did provide for its people, and was bound to fail, as all such fantasies eventually do.
The Russians got their butts kicked in Afghanistan, because their soldiers didn’t give a damn, and the Mujahadeen very much did. And, the Russians nothing for the Afghan people, and the people knew it. Yes, we helped the Mujahadeen, and Osama. So what? We helped the Russians in WWII. Your point is? We also helped the Japanese, Germany, and the rest of Europe after the war.
The news in the last couple of days is that the Belgians might by the Chrysler Building — NOT that Europe is sending aid to Des Moines, and other flood ravaged areas of our midwest. I wasn’t holding my breath waiting for the greater societies on earth to help. Were you?.
After WWII we spent Billions more money rebuilding Europe, and Japan, and we didn’t do it to subjugate them, or we would have, any more than we fought Gulf I for oil, or we’d have it by now.
So, Ozzie, you believe whatever you want to believe, the ocean will do what it does. Yes we’ve made a lot of mistakes, and we’ll make a lot more, but WE are not a mistake. We try to help other people do what we have done, so they can have what we have.
Is my family the greatest family ever? I think so.
Would I prefer to live around people who also think theirs is the best family ever? You bet. They tend to make the best neighbors.
I don’t particularly like living near people who seem constantly to need to convince me that my family is awful, and is responsible for all that’s wrong in their world. If they think that, that’s their choice, but it doesn’t govern how I behave. They never seem to worry what I think of them.
I didn’t read any further than what I quoted above. Sorry.
Bill, that was powerfully eloquent. Great stuff…because I agree whole-heartedly. The only point that I would dispute is that the U.S. in any way supported bin Laden in Afghanistan. This is a smear from the Left.
There were seven independent Afghan groups fighting the Soviet Union, three of them strongly Islamicist. The U.S. did not support the Islamicist groups, one of which was affiliated to bin Laden – however, it did support the Massoud’s Northern Alliance, which was the last of the groups to resist the Taliban up to that fateful day in September, 2001.
Sorry about the bad link for the Timbro study, everyone. For some reason, it worked for me but did not copy (?!).
Thanks, Denny.
I wasn’t sure about Obama either, but didn’t want to get derailed on a minor point.
Your info on the various Afghan groups is very helpful, and I’m glad we were smart enough even back then not to support the islamists. I do now recall The Northern Alliance, though I wasn’t paying a lot of attention to the various ideologies back then. I wish I had.
Allen – I agree with you here. I was a Girl Scout in the 50s and remember us all working on the conservation badge – and I am still a conservative – in more ways than one! Our family camped, fished, hiked and passed it all on to our own three kids who can see the difference between conservation and environmentalism, in its current iteration.
Bill Smith – Most excellent points!
In this past week, I have seen three Iowa cities overrun by flood waters and numerous small towns, including my home town, swallowed up. In these towns, strangers worked next to neighbors to try and save them. They didn’t wait for the National Guard or Army to assist and not even the government to order them. They didn’t wait for assistance but pulled up their shirtsleeves to work.
It will be a few days to before the water recedes enough to view the damage. Some people will rebuild, others will leave. Those that leave will not have to wait for permission to do so. We have more freedom than most other countries in the world, both to succeed or fail.
Sure some will complain about the government’s response but most will go their own way, helping others and picking up the pieces. I do not expect other countries to help at all, but when they complain about our assistance to disasters in the world, I will remember what they did for us at this time.
eeyore
Damn right. And those Boy Scouts. They didn’t sit around crying. They took care of the injured, BROKE INTO an equipment shed, got chain saws, and other tools, and started clearing the road that help would have to come down.
In New Orleans, one Black teen stole a school bus, drove around, and just scarfed up people, and drove them, I dunno, 50 miles or so to the official collection point for the official evacuation buses.
GUESS WHOSE BUS GOT THERE FIRST BY A LONG SHOT?!!!
(This is the kind of thing that just scares the c*** out of progressives who want to be in charge, and manage every aspect of your lives.)
Guess who was held up by officious officials who wouldn’t let him unload because he not only didn’t have the RIGHT paper work, he didn’t — DUH! — have ANY freakin’ paper work!!
And THOSE are the kind of ppeople who want to run your health care system.
Col: Gunny Highway (Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge), what’s your opinion of this operation? (referring to a duffus paperpushing officers attempt to lead a combat op in Grenada)
Gny: It’s a Cluster F**k, Sir. (with idiot officer listening!)
Col: Say what?
Gny: Marines are fighting men, Sir. They shouldn’t be sitting around on their sorry asses filling out requisition forms for equipment they should already have.
Col: Very interesting observation, Gunny.
The Right Stuff
Is my family the greatest family ever? I think so.
Would I prefer to live around people who also think theirs is the best family ever? You bet. They tend to make the best neighbors.
I don’t particularly like living near people who seem constantly to need to convince me that my family is awful, and is responsible for all that’s wrong in their world.” — Bill Smith
Nobody is trying to convince you your family is awful. You can even tell me it’s a FACT that your family is the best family in the world and, though I think it’s a matter of opinion, you can believe whatever you like.
Given this analogy, I’m guesing that you lived in France, you’d likely think France is the best country in the world. And if you lived in Norway, Norway would be No.1
Maybe that’s the way most people are? Wherever they were born and raised is the best society ever. Which is why none of this can be based on fact.
Facts are irrrefutable. Opinions aren’t.
Ozzie,
How you managed to miss the facts, oh never mind, Ozzzzzzzzzzz………..
No, Ozzie, if I lived in Europe, I’d pick up, and LEAVE as my ancestors did.
What a beautiful thread!
And for Ozzie, I’m sorry if the only lesson you can take from this is some sort of universal self-pride.
And for Ozzie, I’m sorry if the only lesson you can take from this is some sort of universal self-pride. – Tap
ah, Tap. dont be sorry. Self-pride has nothing to do with it.
This is the lesson I’ve learned:
I think that America has reached its peak and is on the decline, which is pretty much what D.Q. hinted at when he mentioned the America of 1945-1979 vs the America of today.
I also believe lists of what is good about America and assertions that the U.S is #1 make people feel better, while indications that the U.S. is slipping make people feel uncomfortable.
Nationalism is like religion. People tend to believe whatever gives them hope and comfort.
But, alas, I dont think you can prove that America is the best society ever, anymore than you can prove that former Catholics are burning in hell for eating meat on Friday.
No, Ozzie, if I lived in Europe, I’d pick up, and LEAVE as my ancestors did. – Bill Smith
I was at a party recently and my aunt nailed it when she said, of our ancestors who left Ireland to move to America, “they must have been really hungry to leave such a beautiful place.”
My ancestors flocked here because they were escaping famine and looking for promise in the Land of Opportunity. Not because Ireland was a crappy country.
Ozzie, you have said:
“Given this analogy, I’m guesing that you lived in
France, you’d likely think France is the best country
in the world. And if you lived in Norway, Norway
would be No.1
Maybe that’s the way most people are?
Wherever they were born and raised is the
best society ever.”
“I also believe lists of what is good about America
and assertions that the U.S is #1 make people feel
better, while indications that the U.S. is slipping make
people feel uncomfortable.”
You seem to be saying that the only reason we entertain the belief that America is/was the greatest society ever is because it makes us feel better. You also say that indications that America is slipping makes us feel uncomfortable.
So what do you say to the suggestion that most of the people you disagree with in this thread – who you think are making claims about America’s greatness in order to ‘feel better’ also probably believe America is slipping and are quite willing to state that belief as well, even though it makes us uncomfortable? (Granted, we probably don’t credit the same reasons you would likely credit for any decline.)
Are we just self-contradictory simpletons, led by our emotions, able in one breath to say one thing to make ourselves feel better and also another thing to make ourselves feel uncomfortable?
Maybe we are just trying to stay on an even keel. Yeah, that’s the ticket!
The article is nothing more than opinion, with absolutely no cites to back up his assumptions and declarations.
That’s actually O’s main argument, that everything is an opinion, and thus worthless, including Don’s view of America.
Wherever they were born and raised is the best society ever. Which is why none of this can be based on fact.
The fact that Americans like you, O, exist surely discontinues what you call logic and argument on your part.
Facts are irrrefutable. Opinions aren’t.
The results of a war are irrefutable. The fact that people like you and the transnational progressives can deny reality, also means you can deny facts just by saying they are opinion. That kind of self-delusion is nothing special.
I think that America has reached its peak and is on the decline
That’s a rather useful excuse for sabotage, pessimism, and essentially low balling standards so that when people and yourself fail, you can blame other people or the nation for it because “things are in decline”. It’s a very common game plan by folks cooked up throughout human history.
People tend to believe whatever gives them hope and comfort.
One wonders what gives you hope and comfort, although the latter is rather obvious.
My ancestors flocked here because they were escaping famine and looking for promise in the Land of Opportunity. Not because Ireland was a crappy country.
Now we know O’s standard, or at least family indoctrinated standards, for a good country. A good country is one where you are starving in and must flee.
Given such objective truths, who are we to deny O’s superior opinions?
But, alas, I dont think you can prove that America is the best society ever, anymore than you can prove that former Catholics are burning in hell for eating meat on Friday.
Multiculturalism and moral relativity is simply excuses for bad epistemology and reasoning. Your argument is essentially that because there are too many variables in existence, one cannot prove the fruits of reality in any real objective fashion that cannot be denied by humanity’s ever paternal ability to delusion.
One might think that such people would be quite humble in spilling their own scumish like opinions on non-objective reality, yet they are not.
Ymarsakar
Well said, as usual.
Ozzie’s problem is clear to all but Ozzie.
I once had an acquaintanceship with an immigrant from Eastern Europe who’d spent his whole life under communism. He was trying, but struggling to succeed here, and sometimes seemed to long for the nanny state, however abusive the nanny had been.
I told him a story I’d read somewhere about the clam, and the eagle. The clam sits at the bottom of the sea, and waits for food to flow in, or not. He has no control at all.
Then there is the Eagle. He flies at will among the clouds, in the wind, and the rain, and the lightning. He lands on mountain tops, and does, and goes where he pleases. [The original was much better written, I assure you.]
I told him I thought that just because of what he’d had to do to get here in those days, that he was an Eagle.
The Declaration says that all men are created equal, by their Creator, and so we are. It does NOT promise an equal outcome for clams, just an equal chance — and that does not mean an artificially leveled playing field. It means you can take your God given talents, and start from whatever unfair place, and go as far as your talents, your guts, your will, your perseverance will take you, and the government will not hold you down because of low birth, lack of education, or wrong religion, or any other such hindrance common in Europe. Nope. Here you’re an Eagle. But that means YOU have to do the work. No clam living.
Someone seems to have convinced Ozzie, and he has let them, that it ain’t fair. He needs to think that we’re on the decline so he can see the train headed his way, instead of leaving him further behind. It doesn’t have to be that way, Ozzie. You, too, can do it — unless you LIKE being a mere shell of your present self.
Are we just self-contradictory simpletons, led by our emotions, able in one breath to say one thing to make ourselves feel better and also another thing to make ourselves feel uncomfortable? – Tap
It’s human nature to do things that make us feel better and avoid things that make us uncomfortable.
In my experience, most would rather cling to warm fuzzies than face cold hard truths.
Nationalism is not unique to America, mind you.
But hey, John McCain recently admitted that sometimes it’s hard to be proud of the U.S. So maybe it’s becoming OK not to be a nationalistic simpleton?
“Now we know O’s standard, or at least family indoctrinated standards, for a good country. A good country is one where you are starving in and must flee. – Yam
Man-oh-man.
No, what I meant is that the Potato Famine hit Ireland hard, but that doesnt take way from the beauty of the land.
If my ancestors weren’t hungry, they may have stayed in Ireland.
They left because they were compelled to leave.
“Someone seems to have convinced Ozzie, and he has let them, that it ain’t fair. He needs to think that we’re on the decline so he can see the train headed his way, instead of leaving him further behind —
Oh, brother.
D.Q also admitted that the U.S is on the decline, what does that say about him?
“Oh, brother.
D.Q also admitted that the U.S is on the decline, what does that say about him?”
Not a durn thing. A more relevant question might be whether DQ thinks any such decline is inevitable, absolute, or desirable.
Ozzie, I would like some more specifics about that alleged McCain quote.
I read a great story today in the London Telegraph. I didn’t draw the conclusion they intended, neverthless. . . The story ostensibly was about the great recent success of the Scots regiment in Afghanistan. To paraphrase; the British Army were involved in a prolonged stalemnate situation. Then 2,300 U.S. Marines arrived and ran the Taliban out of the area–(assisted by 100 British troops). Now the big challenge for the Brits is that the Marines are scheduled to leave soon and they will have to hold the gains the Marines achieved on their own.
To me that sums up America viz a viz the rest of the world. Things just don’t get done, then the Americans arrive. Pick a situation and show me where it is different. Disaster relief; Financial Aid programs; UN funding; mutual security. Take your pick.
Dear Ozzie;
FWIW, I’m not American (Malaysian Chinese citizen, if you’re curious). Voter, taxpayer, worker (but not husband and father just yet, unfortunately).
And I know that of all the countries and/or national societies in the world, the USA has them all beat by a mile. Maybe even an order of magnitude.
1. Freedom of speech
2. Freedom to bear arms (not just firearms)
3. Freedom of religion
4. Freedom of association
All of which are absolute freedoms. Ever look at the Philippines constitution? It’s got similar provisions, except they thought they had to ‘modify’ it for ‘Asian’ cultural differences. Hah! They should have petitioned to be annexed the 58th State! (according to O’Bama, anyways) Further; just about any other constitution you read crafted after the 1800s will pay lip service to most of the articles in the US one.
1. Never an militarily imperialistic power
2. Does the job, cleans up, and leaves a minimal presence (and even then, the USA has left the Philippines)
3. Exports freedoms (or at least the concepts) to other countries.
4. Some American invented the Internet (for which G-d bless him.)
These are facts not in question. Although y’all are slipping a little; better buck up. I canna believe O’bama is a viable candidate, fer cryin’ out loud.
Yes, there’s no such thing as perfection. Not this side of Heaven, anyways. Regardless, of all the sucky political, economic and social systems around, and they’re pretty much all sucky right now, the USA is by far the least sucky one.
What bits of suckiness can I do without?
1. Envirowackos. Seriously. Do away with them. Feed them to the (polar) bears.
2. Loony-Libbies. Same as above. Unless they can be reprogrammed.
3. Income taxes through the roof. Guys, what are y’all thinking? Get rid of Social Security, quick quick! And repay everyone the amount they paid into the system, no more.
4. Provincialism. A lot of American people know there’s us, there’s Canada up north, there’s Mexico down south, somewhere there used to be a UK from which they got independence, there’s a bunch of redneck good ole boys who call themselves Aussies for some unknown reason, and oh, some other place called France, and some folk in Eye-raq. Uh, the world is bigger than that. Do buy yourself a good map.
Well, one can dream.
PS One minor quibble (I’m as racist as any redneck!); Chinese came up with paper (and paper money), writing, gunpowder, bureaucracy (ok, not the best thing in the world, but!), egalitarianism (any peasant’s child can become a provincial magistrate, and work his way up). So, not all good things were inwented by Americans. Just ask Pavel Chekov
So, here’s a question: has ANY country at ANY time in history ANYwhere in the world and without ANY hint of obvious self-interest done ANYthing remotely like the following, all of which took place within the past 6 years:
1) Used its Navy for tsunami relief in the Indian Ocean?
2) $billions for AIDS relief in Africa?
3) Intervention and genocide prevention in southern Sudan
Just asking.
Ozzie, I would like some more specifics about that alleged McCain quote – Oldflyer
It was at a Town Hall meeting the other day. A man got up, explained that he was Princeton and Harvard educated and made $300,000 a year and asked John McCain, ““How can I be proud of my country?”
The guy was apparently mocking Michelle Obama’s statements, but McCain didnt seem to get the joke and, to his credit, tried to answer the question honestly and directly.
“I’ll admit to you that it’s tough, it’s tough in some respects,” McCain said, adding that America needed to be “more humble, more inclusive.”
” know that of all the countries and/or national societies in the world, the USA has them all beat by a mile. Maybe even an order of magnitude.
1. Freedom of speech
2. Freedom to bear arms (not just firearms)
3. Freedom of religion
4. Freedom of association” – gkong3
Yep, the Bill of Rights has set us apart, but regardless which party is in power, those rights have been under steady assault.
(when the Village Voice’s Nat Hentoff called President Clinton a “serial violator of the Bill Of Rights,” he was tapping into an authoritarian trend that’s been turbo-charged in recent years).
Sadly, many Americans would give up the B.O.R for safety, ignoring all the warnings the Founders issued.
Dear Ozzie:
I can see by your posts that you are indeed a throwback to your european ancestors, the Irish. The Irish are famous for their bi-polarness as a race of people…i.e., they wallow in their sorrows, write depressing sonnets and generally see the glass as half empty unless they are in the clouds, silly….giddy with happiness and overflowing with Irish vitality.
Oh, and the reason that the Irish have only recently achieved their independence from Britain is because all the petty Irish clan chiefs in history were too busy getting their “own” and undermined any bid for independence by not being able to work together, so the British divided and conquered. As for the potato famine that prompted your family’s immigration, the american’s are not responsible for that, but it’s funny that this country did take your ancestors in, when, guess what? They didn’t have to. I just happens that the Americans were a generous people then, and we’re a generous people now.
Methinks you are in one of those metaphorical valleys where the glass isn’t just half empty, it’s cracked.
You are one of those morbid Americans who should really go to some foreign country, tear up your passport, and live among the people who are being ruled by an honest-to-god dictator. Try being as powerless as they are, then whine to me that America is the root of all evil.
I dunno about yours, but every male in my family for the last 3 generations has done his duty to his country and served in the military. Millions in our history have died so that you have the freedom to make an ass out of yourself in a public forum.
When was the last time the jackbooted secret police invaded the sanctum of your bedroom in the middle of the night to drag you to the gulag for your subversive comments? Oh, wait….we don’t HAVE any secret police! And oh, wait….even if we did, they CAN’T arrest you for subversive comments, because we are guaranteed free speech by our Constitution!
America is not the root of all contemporary evil, and if you really feel that way, you should join your comrades in poverty in venezuela or cuba in solidarity! Instead, you sit in your comfy chair, in your nice house, in a suburb somewhere on a relatively new computer and excoriate the country that gave you and your immigrant family succor…..puleeze.
I bet you’ve never missed a meal in your life.
Gkong3, Thanks for your comments.
A few more reactions to various postings.
Racism. The U.S. of the 21st century gets a bum rap on this one. Sure slavery was a big deal, and it took nearly a hundred years after the cataclysmic solution to address the aftermath. But, we did. But racist attitudes are not the sole province of any race or nationality. Gkong3 can speak to Chinese attitudes–that go back through recorded time and exist today. Anybody ever hear a Norwegian talk about a Swede? A Brit about a Sikh (or any other Rag head as they elegantly put it)? The Irish about the English? Well, it is pretty humorous when the comments come in the middle of a discussion of American racism. I suggest that anyone who is inclined to call America racist just take a look around them during the course of their day. Not many countries look like we do.
Loss of liberty is a real concern right now. What concerns me is the “Do Gooder Nanny Staters”. The elite litte jerks who think they can manage our lives better than we can — and insist on doing it for “our own good”. They are a much bigger threat than the mythical jack booted “Cheneyites”.
Off topic. One of my daughter’s on-again, off-again romantic interest is a jack of many trades in the Vail, Co area. One of his numerous projects has been managing a ranch that belonged to a TV celebrity. It has recently been purchased by the CEO of (gasp) Halliburton. I am happy to report that this fellow is alleged to be a real nice, down to earth guy. I know that report will irritate a number of people.
Oldflyer: Re racism/bigotry in US and outside US: did you see my post #2?
I can see by your posts that you are indeed a throwback to your european ancestors, the Irish- Austin
Thanks!
“The Irish are famous for their bi-polarness as a race of people…i.e., they wallow in their sorrows, write depressing sonnets and generally see the glass as half empty unless they are in the clouds, silly….giddy with happiness and overflowing with Irish vitality.” – Austin
Now, if were I just a drunkard, I could completely fulfill the Irish stereotype.
“America is not the root of all contemporary evil, and if you really feel that way, you should join your comrades in poverty in venezuela or cuba in solidarity.” -Austin
Oh, please. I say that America is on the decline, and that our civil liberties are in danger and you translate that to mean that I think America is the root of all evil?
New blood is extremely important to the health of any community, society, civilization, or nation.
Since assimilating new blood was perfectly consistent with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness which were written as the ideals of this nation and what the US Constitution was designed to produce, America benefited enormously from choosing the correct ethics and philosophy.
Bad ethics and philosophy inevitably produce socialism, communism, and fascism.
Last generation’s Chinese see blacks as inferior and whites as superior. Don’t know about current generation Chinese.
They left because they were compelled to leave.
You mean they left cause America was better than starving in Ireland.
But you can’t admit that because that would provide objective proof for why America is better. And if America is better, and all the other nations and alternatives are worse, would not this make America the best? But of course, you can’t admit that kind of logic for only opinions matter to you.
Oh, please. I say that America is on the decline, and that our civil liberties are in danger and you translate that to mean that I think America is the root of all evil?
It’s just cause you sound like a moral relativist and excuser for things like UN corruption.
Most moral relativists are also anti-Americans, but not all. All, however, are more or less nihilists of one sort or another.
Dear Duchess of Austin,
Concerning your comment to Ozzie: “You are one of those morbid Americans who should really go to some foreign country, tear up your passport, and live among the people who are being ruled by an honest-to-god dictator. Try being as powerless as they are, then whine to me that America is the root of all evil.”
If all the Americans who said this or something similar to an American or group of Americans who were dissatisfied with some aspect of American life took their own advise and left, those of us with the complaints to fix them. Then we’d really have the nation you think we have now. You could return and see the improvement.
You mean they left cause America was better than starving in Ireland.
But you can’t admit that because that would provide objective proof for why America is better. – Ymar
At the time America WAS better than Ireland, especially for those who were hungry and looking for a better life.
According to my husband, who went to Ireland last year, the Irish no longer see America as a great shining beacon.
Bummer.
“It’s just cause you sound like a moral relativist and excuser for things like UN corruption.” – Ymar
What the hell?
Yeah. When I’m not being typically Irish, and discussing ways America is the “root of all evil” I spend my days excusing UN corruption.
Some of you are reading my words and then filling in bizarre details from the voices in your own heads.
Would everyone please lighten up?
I am the first to get my hair up at the rampant anti-Americanism exhibited by Leftist jerks (Democrats include) who miss no opportunity to blame America first.
However, I really haven’t read anything by Ozzie that has been in any way offensive. Methinks people are reading way too much into his posts. What gives?
What I see is a perverse kind of pessimism invading this country and it’s driven by the main stream media (have you ever noticed that when you watch the news the stories are all about how things like germs can kill you and other stories of doom and gloom?) and people who can’t see the positive like, Ozzie.
Yes, America has made some mistakes….show me a superpower that hasn’t. Every dominant culture since the dawn of time has made mistakes, but what makes America great is that we own our mistakes and move on.
Overall, our society works because we have made a policy of assimilating our immigrants and making them a part of the fabric of our country instead of relegating them to ghettos (and I use this term in it’s historical context) to live an insular life isolation from the rest of us. This is the mistake the Europeans have made and it’s coming back to bite them now.
I love my Country, and I am proud of its accomplishments.
So, Duchess of Austin, am I right in surmising that you would NOT see a Democrat victory this autumn as a sign of our country in decline?
Saw it Gringo. I didn’t address any specific posts other than Gkong3′s since he said he was posting as someone who is not American. I agree with what you say. It would really be educational for many folks who are hyper-critical of the U.S. to travel more– and not just to the so-called third world.
But, would they see? I had a very wealthy Brazilian tell me that they were so fortunate that there was no poverty in their city, unlike Rio and Sao Paulo. She apparently simply did not see the families living in cardboard containers underneath every overpass; and the multiude of pitiful souls begging around the fringes of the downtown park–which you would never enter at night. Very convenient.
Yeah. When I’m not being typically Irish, and discussing ways America is the “root of all evil” I spend my days excusing UN corruption.
While you may not do it here or elsewhere, that is usually what moral relativists do. That’s just the trend and there’s nothing I can do to change the statistics about that.
Some of you are reading my words and then filling in bizarre details from the voices in your own heads.
I gave you an explanation for why people respond to your comments the way they sometimes have.
Why this means your political opponents have voices in their own heads, is not very clear.
Methinks people are reading way too much into his posts.
Given that O has a husband, I tend to think that’s her hint that he’s a she.
According to my husband, who went to Ireland last year, the Irish no longer see America as a great shining beacon.
Let’s wrap this little argument up in spades.
Your view is that it depends on opinion, because you give neither respect nor time to objective criteria standards, whether America is best in anything.
Our view is that there exists a fundamental underlying reality that decides for us what is “best” or not. That our opinions do not change this underlying reality one way or another, not directly at least.
Given such things, you have invalidated your own opinions, O, from our consideration. We cannot consider your views valid or even deserving of respect for it is just opinion and can never be anything more than opinion. And just like arm pits, everyone has one or two.
The same applies to you, O, for you can never partake of our epistemological system which premises reality on an objective standard say the standard on who has won a war. You say it’s just opinion, that if the Irish now see that America is worse because they are ignorant enough to believe European media, that this means America is no longer best. And America was better and best in the past because the Irish thought America was better.
In the final tally, O, what matters to you is how good your people’s propaganda is. Europe’s anti-America propaganda is extremely good and thus can convince countless millions that America is not better and nor is America the best nation in the world, in the history of the world.
That’s not what matters to us, of course.
If all the Americans who said this or something similar to an American or group of Americans who were dissatisfied with some aspect of American life took their own advise and left, those of us with the complaints to fix them.
You mean like when George Washington and the Founding Fathers exiled and told the Colonial Loyalists that they must leave for Canada, after the 13 Colonies had won the Revolutionary War?
That did great things for America, since it left the complainers somewhere else while leaving the true believers behind to work and build things up.