Friends who test our patience *UPDATED*

At Charles Martel’s request, here is an open thread at which you can recount your more humorous, frustrating, bizarre, etc., experiences with the liberals around you.

UPDATE:  Per Lulu’s suggestion, if you are a neocon, please feel free to add what ideas changed your thinking.  Perhaps those same ideas, if fed gently to our friends, will change theirs.

As for me, I realize more and more that I haven’t changed very much.  The big thing for me was to realize that, while my values had remained stable, the Democratic party had abandoned me.  Although, I’ve never been a JFK fan, I am a JFK Democrat — and, as Noemie Emery points out in this article about Princess Caroline, the Kennedies ain’t what they used to be (and neither is the modern Democratic party).

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  • Charles Martel

    I have a friend who is a psychiatrist who works with high-salaried corporate types who need to be restored to working condition quickly. Over the past 10 years we’ve developed a habit where we’ll get together for a day every three months or so and go check out new bars in Marin or San Francisco, and smoke a cigar or two along the way.

    He is deeply commited to the environmentalist movement. He owns an electric car, votes for every feel-good green ballot proposition and is constantly bemoaning the ungreen sins of his neighbors, our town, the U.S. and the world in general.

    Because I genuinely enjoy his company when he’s not hallucinating leftist “reality,” for years I have artfully dodged his attempts to steer our discussions into politics. I know he has sensed on some deep level that I don’t agree with him on many things and am trying to preserve the friendship.

    Three days ago he called to propose that my wife and I join him and his wife on Inauguration Day at our local theater, where the ceremonies will be live-streamed in HD on a 50-foot screen. When I expressed some hesitation, he said, “There’s a rumor that you didn’t vote for Obama.”

    I told him that the rumor was true. He was astonished. In his world, an intelligent, educated fellow like me just has to see the wonderfulness of The One. I could actually hear the gears in his head grinding.

    We postponed my giving an account of myself until our next get-together in mid-January. There I will be expected to overcome his befuddlement at my having disrupted the natural order of things, that is, that enlightened people by definition must believe certain things.

    Rather than argue philosophy or politics with him — like almost every leftist alive, he works on emotion and what the New York Times tells him, not from logic or a base of real knowledge — I will simply invite him to take after me and to relish the friendship outside of politics. I’ll keep my fingers crossed: For leftists, all politics is personal. He may choose to see my opinions and beliefs as an affront to him.

    I’ll report back after I see him next.

  • Bookworm

    My Mom, bless her heart, told me that Bush is the worst president ever. Why? Because everyone says he is. Who is everyone? The media. I reminded her that these same people think Jimmy Carter is a living saint. I suggested that, before taking their appraisal of Bush at face value, she might want to consider whether she agrees with their standards. Nope. They’re wrong about Carter, but right about Bush. Why are they right about Bush. Because they all say he’s the worst president ever. Even with a truly beloved aged parent, a logic loop like this one can be frustrating. And don’t even get her started on Cheney or Palin. It’s the same logic loop, although with more emotion attached. Sigh….

  • Ellen

    My boss grew up in Manhattan on the Lower East Side. She’s a thoroughly secular Jew (I’m Catholic and know more about Jewish customs than she does).
    We get along quite well, but we simply can’t talk politics. She is the knee jerkiest liberal there was. All you have to do is say Progressive and she marches in the parade. As for BDS – her case is terminal. She’s the Typhoid Mary of BDSers. I haven’t even mentioned some of the more weird Truther conspiracy theories since I am pretty sure she believes them all. When I said I thought that Dennis Kucinich was more than just a bit loony, she said she thought he was right. So, we talk about any and every thing, but not politics.

    However, I might have found a chink in her armor. She is a die hard feminist and she was incensed at the treatment that Sarah Palin recieved from the press. There might be hope after all.

  • Ymarsakar

    Some of my black friends and associates back in 2007-8 were talking about Obama never being allowed to become President cause “they” would kill him before that happens.

    Even though it was pretty funny and they were laughing about it, they were serious about it, if only because they kept repeating it.

    This brings into vogue that question somebody around asked “how can you say the Man is keeping you down when you are the Man?”

  • Ymarsakar

    Asian folks want China to become great and they also think America wants everybody to follow American law (without the benefits of American citizenship or state’s rights, that is unstated). They don’t know too much about Tibet, just like Russians (even Sergey of Neo-neocon) believes in all the anti-Georgian rhetoric and propaganda.

    It is confirmation bias. People believing what they want to believe or fear is true. People don’t fear that America just wants to be left alone, no, people fear that America wants everybody to follow the American police man line. So they believe in that and they “fear” America. The fact that their fears are irrational has nothing to do with their strength of belief. In fact, irrational beliefs make for stronger beliefs.

    African Somalian folks don’t like American interference in their business, which is why they will gladly accept China’s business. They don’t see this as an interference in Somalian business, regardless of the economic clout China would have in their mercantile colonies, because the Chinese don’t care about what politics the Somalians have while Americans do. This means that to the Somalians, China is a better path to prosperity and riches than America. The fact that there is no economic prosperity without political reforms is, of course, not something you would expect Somalians to have experience with. While they see the wealth generated by Chinese businesses that go into Somalia, take their cash, and leave, they don’t really see the wealth generated by American policies. This is partially why the world hates America, you see. Not because there is too much American interference, but because American policies don’t interfere enough to prove our bonafides. The Somalian I knew didn’t say that, but it is still true.

    Now for the professor that came from Ghana, he is a weird juxtaposition between the tribal mindset (he believes in strong men and decisive action, which puts him with the Executive or strong national defense people) and he does not respect societal sheep. The ones that won’t take their own survival in their own hands and he used 9/11 as one example, where one of his cousins didn’t come to work there.

    He supports Bush’s aids aid in Africa. But doesn’t support Bush’s war in Iraq, although he doesn’t explicitly state it. He also talks about how blacks born in America are spoiled. Although he didn’t use that exact phrasing.

  • Danny Lemieux

    I have a brother-in-law (from another State) to whom my wife (his sister) and I spoke ourselves blue-in-the-face about why NOT to vote for anybody associated with the Illinois political machine into national office because it would open the door to Chicago/Illinois-style corruption on a national scale. He openly scoffed at us…until the news broke about our governor’s Blagojevich’s arrest. We met him at a family gathering recently and he was openly saying “Danny and [da wife] warned me not to vote for Obama and I didn’t believe them…now I know that I made a huge mistake”. A great “told-you-so” moment, but so what? We’re stuck.

    We will spend New Year’s Eve with a good friend but die-hard BDS Liberal. She will be gloating about Bush being out of office. I will pose the same question that I’ve been posing to avowed Nixon haters: “Can you be rational and balanced enough to acknowledge even one thing that Bush did that was good?”. Let them say “no” and I will hit them with both barrels, with the disclaimer that, much as I detested Clinton, I certainly could acknowledge some things that he did that were very good.

  • Ymarsakar

    These conversions seem to be weak. Meaning, it’s just one little tid bit of information he was wrong on. Real change happens when you start challenging the basic premises and assumptions you have made all your life. Not just a one off incident with your own state’s governor.

    When the going gets tough, it gets easier and easier to recant your conversion.

  • 1Lulu

    How about a new thread in which people can discuss the process in which they came to Conservatism, as it is obvious by the comments that many of us have broken with family traditions by coming to our present views? Along with other things, I know I was helped along by being loaned a few eye-opening books (though I didn’t realize at the time their impact), and talk-radio. How we changed may also give us an idea of how to talk with our friends and relatives and colleagues- should we decide that conversation is even worth having.

  • Charles Martel

    What 1Lulu said.

  • Tiresias

    You’re all much more patient than I am, I actually don’t much tolerate people around me, in the category of “friend,” who’ve demonstrated an inability to think. There’s always one, though.

    He’s a Topanga Canyon knee-jerk liberal retired hippie; but we’re also co-writers. Part of a working relationship in what is humorously referred to as an “art form” is the more or less constant ability for each of us to be free to look at the other and say: “that sucks!” (and mean it, make no mistake) – but remain friends, partners, and able to be and work together.

    That attitude extends to politics. He knows perfectly well I think he’s a generally uninformed idiot, and though he in fact counts on me to be better informed than he is, he figures all my conclusions are nonetheless wrong.

    Maybe we’re just lucky. Our wives posit that we’ve been hanging around each other for so long that when politics come up we can barely get a rise out of one another, let alone get mad.

    The four of us are off to Maui in a couple of weeks. The ladies will be horseback and bike riding, going to the beach, shopping, volcano climbing, etc. He and I will spend the entire time inside holed up with our trusty laptops (we’re working), and politics probably won’t come up even once.

  • Bookworm

    Tiresias, that’s really quite funny that you’ll be on Paradise holed up. I’m a bad traveler, preferring the comforts of home to just about anything. (Which is a turnabout from me in my 20s, when I traveled a lot.) Hawaii, however, is my exception — it’s the one place I actually want to visit, in large part because it’s the only lazy vacation I ever do.

  • Ymarsakar

    (though I didn’t realize at the time their impact)

    Stealth conversions. If you know what is coming, then you can erect mental defenses and reject the new dynamic out of hand. But if you don’t know what it is and if you let the ideas incubate for any extended period of time, then the new facts will connect with the old, absolute, facts to create a new impression. If the new facts are contradictory, then it can change people’s views.

    What it won’t do is to change people’s basic personality and basic philosophical axioms.

    Neither Bookworm nor Neo-Neocon ever junked their belief in human dignity. Part of the resistance to conservative ideas is the belief that you have to be mean to be a conservative. Or you have to want the status quo to be upheld, whether the status quo is flawed or not, to be a conservative.

    Ayn Rand’s philosopher is a good primer on the evils of socialism. It, however, cannot update you on modern conservatism in America.

  • Gringo

    Visiting my brother and sister-in-law has long been a mixed blessing for me, as my sister-in-law is a control freak of the household who always makes me feel as if I am walking on glass. She will always find something to complain about me. Soft spoken, but always very critical. If its not one thing, it will be another. My MO has been to bite my tongue. As I am fond of my brother and their children, I consider that the best policy. I extend that to politics. As long as I have known my sister-in-law, she has been a yellow dog Democrat. What the hey, I used to be one. When she ventures a political opinion, I make no reply. Honesty is not always the best policy.

  • Charles Martel

    Wow, so many comments that resonate here…

    Ellen, my wife is Jewish (I’m Catholic) and I often find that I know more about her tradition than she does. When she was disgusted with the way the media dissed Hillary after they decided Obama was the Anointed One, I told her to watch what they did with Sarah Palin. I wish I could say my advice took — she wound up walking lock-step with the Palin dismissers — but I know I had planted a seed.

    Tiresias, my closest collaborator, like yours, is a writer who believes in some really ditzy stuff. Yet our arguments are always good natured and if we sense it’s heading into a dead end, we offer to buy each other a beer and talk about women and fishing. It works every time and we do good work together.

    Gringo, I used to be a yellow dog Demo, too. I think your tack of not responding when she ventures a political opinion is not at all dishonest. Why waste your time talking to a wall or inviting certain attack? Life is too short.

  • Earl

    Tomorrow evening we’ll have supper with a couple we’ve known since we were all in Peace Corps in the ’70s. I joined in order to get support for my PhD research, after the Venezuelans elected a new government and the university people I’d arranged things with all got fired (can you say “spoils system?). Our friends were 15 years older and “progressive”……

    Anyhow, this guy’s LAST desire for a foreign trip was to go to North Korea…! He did go, after having visited Cuba a couple of times….I always wanted to tell him, since he owned a small apartment building at the time, that if his crowd took over, he’d be up against the wall and shot as a capitalist exploiter! But I never did.

    Hopefully, we’ll have a nice meal and they won’t push it too hard – big BDS cases and Obama supporters, and it’s in their Christmas letters, phone calls, etc. Just starry-eyed statements about how much better the future looks with the new Administration and so on – I guess I can ignore if for a few hours…..again.

  • Ymarsakar

    A lot of the knee jerk Leftist instincts can be seen in how they treat asocial criminal violence.

    You know how often they talk about wanting to talk to Iran and Hamas and what not? These are the same people whose automatic reaction to criminals is to use a social response. Jack Straw, Britain’s previous Foreign Minister, was against a law defending the right of homeowners not to be sued or prosecuted for chasing down thieves and attacking them. Straw said there was no need because British society would take care of. Of course, after Straw himself had to chase some burglars down the street, he changed his mind over his opposition to the law.

    These are the same damntards that think they know how to deal with mass murderers and their official regimes across the world.

    Yet when it comes to the real world, they would be the first ones to negotiate a “deal” with the thief where they give over their valuables and the thief lets them go unharmed. The fact that the criminal statistics say that the criminal will shoot or attack you anyways, doesn’t change the instincts of these numbtards to always favor a “social” solution. They can’t look beyond the societal conditioning that they were brought up in. They can’t look beyond the cultural assumptions they had from birth.

    They are not fit to judge but they believe otherwise.

    Anyhow, this guy’s LAST desire for a foreign trip was to go to North Korea…! He did go, after having visited Cuba a couple of times

    These people see nothing except what they are allowed to see.

  • Ellen

    Jimmy Carter changed me. I was as yellow dog as they come, but as the Carter presidency wore on, more and more I felt that the ideas he (and the rest of the Dems) espoused just weren’t working. And he was so gloomy and full of malaise.

    Reagan’s optimism and good cheer made me think that conservatives had more to offer and the economic prosperity that followed his tax cuts sealed the deal for me. Also I am pro-life and the treatment that the former PA governor Casey got at the Democratic convention in 1992 just sealed my conviction that the Dems think people like me are neanderthals.

  • Quisp

    Along with other things, I know I was helped along by being loaned a few eye-opening books (though I didn’t realize at the time their impact), and talk-radio.

    I know a few people (myself included) who started out reading conservative books expecting to gather ammunition to argue against what was there, and came out the other side a conservative. I’ve actually warned a couple of liberal friends that the experiment into “understanding the other side” might have unintended consequences, and been scoffed at, or informed that “the courage of my convictions will prevent any sort of conversion, trust me.” Six months later I’m giving them URLs for Right Wing News.

    It doesn’t work with everyone, of course. The liberal friend who told me that “it’s not fair if someone else has a $30,000 watch when I can’t have one. I should have one if I want one,” is a hopeless case.

  • Tiresias

    Quisp, your #18, a continued-on thought from my #10 – I about fell off my chair when I read your last graf!

    I was always happy with my $59 Texas Instruments plastic watch, which not only told the time with precise digital accuracy, but also stored 50 phone numbers, (or account numbers, or passwords, or combinations – or whatever you wanted); but was, as I said and must admit: plastic. Handy as hell, but plastic.

    But my partner decided one day it was nowhere near cool enough and didn’t create the right impression for meetings, etc. in Hollywood; so as a gift from him the ridiculous gold-and-steel Rolex appeared under the Christmas tree a few years ago. The knee-jerk liberal bought the mean conservative the nonsensically expensive watch – and your comment cracked me up!

    Bookworm: where we generally hole up is the dining room in the Pioneer in Lahaina. Breakfast; a couple of cups of coffee/tea; a sandwich at lunch; some more sodas, coffee, etc. through the afternoon suffices to rent the table, and they’ll let you sit there undisturbed all day. We at least see the sun from time to time, and maybe even get a breeze off the water now and then. We don’t completely waste being in the islands!

  • Ellen

    Heh, I’ve always worn a Timex. It tells time accurately and it is dependable. What else would I want a watch for?

    I also look on a purse as something to carry my stuff in – not a fashion statement.

  • Mike Devx

    Earl (# 15)
    >> Hopefully, we’ll have a nice meal and they won’t push it too hard – big BDS cases and Obama supporters, and it’s in their Christmas letters, phone calls, etc. Just starry-eyed statements about how much better the future looks with the new Administration and so on – I guess I can ignore if for a few hours…..again. >>

    Has anyone noticed how thoughtfully and considerately all of you bend over backwards to avoid offending your friends and acquantainces, to avoid even the appearance of insult though none is intended… and yet these same friends and acquaintances have absolutely no compunctions about treading all over you?

    This is Israel and its haters, all over again. You are behaving with the greater morality and goodwill, and yet – as far as I can tell – it is gaining you no respect from them. They certainly don’t appear to be offerring it. That places you, like Israel, in the exploitable position, and, I think, allows them to feel superior. Since they get to talk freely but you cannot.

    It’s not a good position to be in. Perhaps it’s time to find a way to gently be allowed to express your own beliefs, and ensure that they do not take offense. Silence on one side just doesn’t seem to me to be healthy for you.

    Admittedly, if the cost to you IS in fact minimal, feel free to ignore this advice!

  • Mike Devx

    In some of the anecdotes the two of you do engage in free talk, recognize that tensions may be developing, and mutually and freely respect each other and switch to less volatile topics. I didn’t mean to include you… that’s mutual respect and definitely healthy and rewarding!

  • Charles Martel

    To this day I can impress my wife when I make my $50 Timex light up the most beautiful blue just by pushing a little button on its side.


    At Christmas, one of my guests, whom I have known ever since I hired him years ago as a writer at a trade magazine, announced that he had supported Obama because he needs health insurance.

    I added yet more scars to my already heavily pockmarked tongue when I resisted asking, “How can any self-respecting, self-supporting 53-year-old man ask other people to pay for his medical expenses? Are you a man or are you a boy?”


    Biting my tongue is exactly the behavior Mike describes above. As time goes on, I’m becoming less patient with myself and my constant attempts to defuse situations by not suggesting to my liberal friends — as sweetly as possible of course — that they are smug fools when it comes to politics.

    So, this is the year that I come all the way out. I have to if I’m going to help the rest of us here keep our promise to get active so that we can take our country back.

  • Ymarsakar

    Everybody has weak points. You just have to find them. The fact that they keep talking and talking is actually a boon, since it nets you free intel without you having to say much of anything.

    What people say is different depending on the people they are talking to. Among close friends, they say one thing. Amongst strangers, another. Amongst ideological followers, they will admit things that they won’t tell their ideological opponents.

    The problem here is that destroying people’s convictions or at least changing them often leads to an adversarial environment. This can reduce the social benefit you get from friends. Christian missionaries have had some success in Africa and other parts of the world. They can hate the sin but love the sinner. But look at modern opinions concerning evangelical outreach and Christian proselytizing to see the rewards the public has provided their efforts.

    The Left wants you to leave them alone while they want full freedom to do whatever they want. It is more convenient this way. It is less troublesome for them. It is less energy intensive. It is always more trouble to confront your own views than to take apart other people’s views. You cannot stop caring about your own views, while you can essentially ignore other people’s views by choice.

  • socratease

    I think my turning to the conservative side was over the gun control issue. I was a fairly solid (though not active) liberal, and used to hang out on talk.politics.guns before there was a world-wide web. It was obvious to me that banning guns reduced violence, but the arguments I found on-line for the other side had more facts and better reasoning than the liberal ones. And when I started researching the issue myself, I found most of the time the anti-gun side had faked or manipulated their studies to produce the results they wanted.

    I still remember having an argument with my Mother who was convinced that the “assault weapon” ban bill in Congress was all about getting machine guns off of the streets. At the time I had spent over a year of evening classes to become a police reserve officer, including firearms training, and knew quite a bit about the issue. (I was also a gun owner and certified firearms instructor by then, but I never told her that.) But despite my quoting of facts and the law, she was convinced the network newscasts, with their background video of machine guns firing whenever they discussed the issue, were right and I was wrong. Working at Lawrence Berkeley Lab, I often run into extremely intelligent people with bad cases of BDS and who think Obama’s election was the best thing to happen to our country. It really makes you shake your head sometimes.

  • Ymarsakar

    with their background video of machine guns firing whenever they discussed the issue, were right and I was wrong.

    This is why I went to the effort of studying the Art of Propaganda. It is, in fact, a better weapon than nukes. You can use it more often, at less cost, and with far less domestic resistance. It is untraceable, you can have plausible deniability which nukes don’t really give you.

    Propaganda is another tool in the arsenal and I was interested in acquiring more tools. Especially so many people are vulnerable to it.

    Just like violence affects everybody equally, so does propaganda. The difference lies in skill and some luck, of course.

  • Quisp

    Tiresias (#19), I hope the watch keeps good time!

    Heh, I’ve always worn a Timex. It tells time accurately and it is dependable. What else would I want a watch for?

    Yeah, that was my reaction. But what other people had that she didn’t seemed to cause this woman actual pain, in a way I never quite understood. She definitely subscribed to the “they’re just lucky and it’s not fair” school of thought. And if you think about it, “I want it, so I should have it” is a fairly typical liberal whine – from Peggy Joseph to Fannie Mae mortgages to Charles’ friend’s healthcare insurance.

  • Earl

    Mike (#21):

    Yes, I’ve noticed exactly what you point out — it’s the “tolerant” one who is being accommodated by the religious fanatic in this relationship – as, I suspect, occurs in lots of others like it.

    We had good time, actually — spent a couple of hours sitting and talking in their living room, then a wonderful dinner for a couple or three more hours, and then some time at the house before bed. I do NOT say nothing in these situations; I always speak my piece in an irenic way; but I do avoid direct confrontations with his irrationality, or it escalates into aggression and rage. One simply cannot have a civil exchange of views with rebuttals, etc.

    Mostly I do this for the wife – the gent is simply impossible if aroused. A complete S.O.B. when talking politics, and he spent a bit of time attempting to bait me in various ways. This is the first time in about eight years that we’ve even SEEN the couple, so it’s not like I’m putting myself through a great deal. The bond is there mainly because of shared experience, and we genuinely love (and pity) the wife.

    Even when we move and live three hours from them, we’ll not be spending lots of time there — the grandchild will be the #1 priority!


  • Mike Devx


    >> I always speak my piece in an irenic way; but I do avoid direct confrontations with his irrationality, or it escalates into aggression and rage. One simply cannot have a civil exchange of views with rebuttals, etc. … Mostly I do this for the wife – the gent is simply impossible if aroused. A complete S.O.B. when talking politics, and he spent a bit of time attempting to bait me in various ways. >>

    I certainly don’t want to see friendly get-togethers become aroused and bitter debates. Some form of gentle response must always be appropriate, and if the “other side” becomes aggressive and hostile, one should always be able to say, “I have an opinion just as you do, and I would think we should both be free to state it or neither of us should”, should end the baiting. If it doesn’t… then this person confronting you is anti-social and detestable, and probably not worthy of your time. In the case of that fellow’s wife, that would really be sad.

    I would continue to think that remaining completely silent, always, just wouldn’t be healthy. Ymar makes the point that you learn a lot more that way about the nature of “the enemy”, but that makes of you a deliberate spy.

    Over the summer I had an argument with my brother-in-law who harshly and falsely attacked Israel and was in complete sympathy with the Palestinians. I lost control of myself and let it escalate. That’s the danger in attempting to mildly speak up… but I couldn’t remain silent, as silence does mean approval.

  • Earl

    You’re right, Mike – silence is a lie, and eventually soul-killing…although with our “relationship” as intermittent and spasmodic as it has been, there’s really not been much danger to my soul.

    Anyhow, one example – he said he was really optimistic about the new Admin and asked how I felt about it. I said I was rooting hard for them, and I thought there were some good signs. Then I said that my fear was that if they handled the economic challenges the way California did, it would be disastrous. He demanded to know what I meant by that, so I said that California spent money without much regard to the productive capacity of the state, simply expecting to get it from constantly increasing taxes. Now businesses were leaving the state, productive people were doing likewise, and they were going to the Feds begging for a handout. If the U.S. tries something similar, who would they get a handout from?

    He harumphed (there really isn’t anything both rational and “liberal” to say in response to this point) and said that the Federal government could print more money, and I reminded him what that always produces, and then went on to praise the (Democrat) governor of Tennessee, Phil Bredesen. He is digging in his heels and standing with (most of) the Republicans (there are some of his own party who share his views, to be fair) in the legislature in his refusal to raise taxes, or institute an income tax. I could almost hear my friend’s chin hit the floor, as he said “TN doesn’t have an income tax? How do they raise the money for services, etc.?” I replied that it’s done with a sales tax, and a tax on dividends, and Bredesen has said (and backed it with action) that TN will live within its means, just like TN families have to.

    I love our gov…..I really do think if he’d run for President, I’d vote for him. Anyhow, that left my friend without much to say and we were getting to the restaurant, in any case, so it went no farther.

  • suek

    >>I love our gov…..I really do think if he’d run for President, I’d vote for him.>>

    Sounds like someone even a committed Republican like me could vote for. Snowball’s chance in hell that the Dems would ever nominate him!

  • Charles Martel

    A Moment of Truth is impending for my dear liberal wife. The news channels are reporting that California may issue IOUs in lieu of income tax refunds this year. I told her that the cringe-inducing stupidity of the Democrats who run this state virtually assures that California will plunge into bankruptcy in the next few weeks with no real solution in site. Thus, one or several of the following unpalatable developments will soon ensue:

    — We will receive IOUs from an entity that is bankrupt. Good luck turning them into food or heat.

    — At the same time, we will be expected to pay state income tax on our 2009 income. (I’ve suggested to my wife that in lieu of sending the state money, we simply deduct the amount we owe from what the state’s IOU says it owes us.)

    — The state will increase income taxes on the “wealthy” (namely anybody who’s not on welfare) in the middle of a severe recession, thus more quickly pushing the remaining producers out to Nevada, Oregon and Arizona.

    — The usual suspects — people on welfare, people who view their blackness or Hispanic-ness as a profession, seniors, teachers, state employees, cops, firemen, gays with self-inflicted HIV and other mouths at the public trough — will push hard to keep their bailiwicks plush. When reality’s bitch slaps finally register with them, there will be riots, sit-ins, work slowdowns (is that possible at the DMV?) and other signs of snitty discontent. In other words, actions that will do nothing to produce wealth or the wherewithal to dig our way out of tens of billions of dollars of debt.

    I’ve managed to live at the periphery for a long time, so the coming train wreck is something I will be able to observe from a relatively safe distance. I don’t relish the hard lesson my wife is about to learn about why being a yellow dog Democrat is nothing to be proud of.

  • Mike Devx

    Charles #32,

    So, we have to pay our income taxes in early, because the government won’t let us simply pay it all on April 15th.

    So come April 15th, some in California will find that they’ve given the State too much money through the year. It’s time for a refund… but California is going to say, “Nope, we’re going to keep even the extra money you gave us! And by the way, here’s an IOU. We’ll get that money to you, we promise… but really, shouldn’t you stop thinking of it as YOUR money? We in the government prefer to think that it belongs to us.”

    I sense a hint of revolution in the air… California Referendum, here we come! And it couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of government bureaucrats and the moochers that keep them in power.