Honing our arguments
Bookworm on Apr 18 2009 at 11:18 pm | Filed under: Uncategorized
This morning, I asked a question about the sexual innuendo behind the word “teabagging” (since other bloggers have noticed a sneering, locker room quality to MSM reports on the Tea Parties). To date, there have been 94 comments on that post. The first few dealt with the question itself. Then, a liberal came to visit, and the comments exploded as he cast nasturtiums at us for failing to recognize Obama’s greatness, and trotted out all the usual anti-Bush, anti-capitalism, anti-war, anti-etc. conclusions one finds at liberal websites. My dear readers responded vigorously, but he always came back with more conclusions, although few, if any facts.
One of my readers even suggested that he might be a troll. His response was interesting. Nope, he said. I’ve got a name and a day job. But trolls can have day jobs. The nature of a troll is simply to take over a blog’s comment site, and essentially exhaust and then drive away the readers. This doesn’t have to be a full time job. You can do this as a hobby.
Anyway, the troll almost succeeded with one of my favorite commenters, who wrote me a despairing letter about the frustration of dealing with trolls, and his sense that trolls reflect the futility of all political discourse and of our entire political system. Even though just yesterday I was complaining, and I’m still ready to complain today, about an information overload that’s making blogging difficult for me, I don’t despair as much as my friend does. Instead, believe it or not, I’ve found this troll experience somewhat heartening, and that’s because of the quality of my regular readers.
Much like my friend, I don’t have the energy for the individual trolls and I usually ignore them. I find them useful though, because they’re a microcosm of the ideas we need to challenge — not at my blog, but in the true public forum: the media, the schools and the public square. Thus, while no argument we make will ever change or even stop a troll not all liberals are trolls.
I speak with voice of experience when I say that most liberals just don’t think. They accept the labels assigned by the Leftist media and education system, and go rolling along, constantly trying to adjust themselves to the disconnect between reality and the party line. These are the people who are open to our arguments. We practice them on the trolls, knowing we’ll lose, and then we use them, politely, kindly, and with a relentless factual and moral logic, on those in the real world.
And as to some of them, we’ll change their minds. That was how it worked with me. I was a lifelong, unthinking, Bay Area liberal. What changed me were books, conversations with smart conservative friends, and world events that could not be explained away by liberal tropes. Over the years, all of these things came together into a blinding epiphany, when I recognized that my political party was no longer my political party. Forty years after Reagan drew the same conclusion, I realized entirely on my own (since I was unaware of the Reagan quotation) that I hadn’t left the Democratic party, it had left me.
Don’t give up the faith. As long as we have that, as Churchill knew in the darkest days of WWII, we can still win:
We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God’s good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.
Trolls, irritating though they may be, are good for us. They’re practice, and when we leave their irritating orbit, we take our polished, clear, factually supported, logical arguments out to the masses and, with luck, we change some minds.
Cross-posted at Right Wing News
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31 Responses to “Honing our arguments”
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I speak with voice of experience when I say that most liberals just don’t think.
Funny you should mention this. My sister-in-law is visiting us right now. She’s a PBS-listening, Charlie Rose lovin’, retired member of NEA (she taught 4th grade in a tiny district in the midwest for 40 years). What I’ve discovered in talking with her is that what she thinks isn’t what she thinks she thinks. She’ll spout the liberal line, but when you get into details she has pretty conservative standards. There’s a consistent disconnect between her actual values and philosophies and the spoonfed conclusions she’s been socialized to parrot. My husband and I have been gently trying to point this out whenever such topics arise. She’s informed us she’s staying for a week (that’s another story) – by the end of that time I imagine her world view is going to be shaken up a bit.
Honing our arguments…
This morning, I asked a question about the sexual innuendo behind the word “teabagging” (since other bloggers have noticed a sneering, locker room quality to MSM reports on the Tea Parties). To date, there have been 94 comments on that……
I was going to comment, Bookie, but saw the question had been answered. I went on to read through the comments, but only made it through about 30 or so. After that … meh!
I did notice the Troll in question remained calm throughout, which is something some Trolls never learn. The requests for citations are simply brushed aside – “Why should I do that for you?” – which is the way the experienced Troll does things.
Can’t argue with facts? Tell them to look it up.
At least he didn’t get insulting, at least through the comment thread I read.
And now you know what ‘tea-bagging’ means. Bookie. And aren’t you the better for it?
Yeesh!
Bookworm –
This is why I visit your site daily, no matter what. You are so right – discussing our ideas, even with people who may or may not be trolls, helps us refine our arguments.
Quisp –
When your sister-in-law leaves, you must write and let us know if she changed her mind on anything.
There’s a consistent disconnect between her actual values and philosophies and the spoonfed conclusions she’s been socialized to parrot. My husband and I have been gently trying to point this out whenever such topics arise. She’s informed us she’s staying for a week (that’s another story) – by the end of that time I imagine her world view is going to be shaken up a bit.
Remember, emotional appeal is the strongest appeal. Fear of the guns keeps people away from guns. Fear of criminals keeps people away from gun control.
Some of us have been enamored of rationality and reason, but there are those still beholden to the age old primordial cry of emotion.
By our definition, Deana, the entire Left are trolls. They instigate in order to overthrow the status quo.
>>by the end of that time I imagine her world view is going to be shaken up a bit.>>
Good luck with that. I think that a large part of the problem is that there’s an identity crisis that has to be overcome – “I’m a Liberal (or Democrat, or whatever) and proud of it”. Even if the ideas are proven to be false or inadequate, it may be too big a step to come to the point of “Golly – maybe I’m _not_ a lib/dem/whatever.” Because then the next step is possibly to Libertarian(unlikely) or Republican(highly unlikely).
I suspect that the best course would be to work on convincing someone that they are an Independent and that they judge issues based on facts – however they fall. You know – both parties are _such_ ideologues – the really smart person is _independent_ of the party line. “You’re an independent thinker, aren’t you” usually is considered a compliment…
“My dear readers responded vigorously…”
Well, you know…there are days and there are days. It happened that apparently yesterday people had time and for whatever reason were on line. The battle was joined. I’ve been online other Saturdays, and nary a post or comment in sight.
I initially got hooked into the discussion as I was bidding on a computer – we may have one at work that has failed. I got it – $315 with a guarantee that goes through the end of March 2011. Windows Pro…I’m happy. It’s getting tough these days to get one that doesn’t have Vista…
About emotion and sense of identity, and their power
A very, very deep need we all have is the need to feel we belong. A LOT of us gain our identity from the group that belong to, or follow, be it a sports team, or a political party. Try arguing rationally with a Cubs fan. It’s their team, and that’s that.
Back when I was an adult, I was a Corporate Warrior in sales as had been my father. He told me that:
A man convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion still
You have to find a way to help your prospect to make an emotional decision to make a rational decision.
One way — in some circumstances — is Feel, Felt, Found.
“I know exactly how you Feel. (provide examples)
I Felt the same way myself,
But I have Found that…” (make your points)
However, in the present context, we must also not waste time on trolls. They are here for sick sport.
These people do not discuss; they do not argue; they simply fling words. Some believe they ARE discussing/arguing.
I could go on, but people like this simply cannot be argued with, let alone convinced. They are living in a liberal bubble whose life-support comes entirely from an economic system they seem to hate, and wish to destroy. Because they simply do not recognize that it IS their life support system. They think the way they live, the benefits of our way of life just happen, like grass, and air.
This is tolerable in small children who haven’t learned anything yet, but this troll is around 40!
People like this are not to be reasoned with. It saps our time, and energy. They must simply be defeated.
I am sorry that this does not flow as smoothly as I’d like, but I’m in a rush.
Slightly off topic, but……..
goes a long way in explaining what we face.
The Pew News IQ Quiz
http://pewresearch.org/newsiq/
Be sure to look at the national averages after the test.
H/T http://patterico.com/
>>This is tolerable in small children who haven’t learned anything yet, but this troll is around 40!>>
40??? Really?? And he comes back with “China won’t let us fail”?
Wow. I don’t even know how to describe that…
I once believed that China would not let me fail.
But a coupla dozen broken plates and tea services later, I realized it was all an illusion.
Melmac forever!
–>rockdalian
About the Pew Poll. Around the time of the election I saw numerous interviews of young people 40 and under. What stunned me was not that they didn’t know the simplest things like those in this Pew Poll — bad as that was — but that THEY DIDN’T CARE. They were not the least bit embarrassed not to know who the Vice President was, or the candidates among other things.
That’s what bothers me about our troll, too. In his world knowing what teabagging is is — and I quote — “vital information.”
He seems not to know, or care that we are highly in debt to a nation like China who does not wish us well. He seems blissfully unaware of the geopolitical consequences of that.
quisp – Robert Conquest once wrote that everyone is conservative about the things he knows best. So is your sister-in-law. As long as she votes liberal by default she may well end up creating a world she never truly wanted.
or as Margaret Thatcher said, the facts of life are conservative.
Too bad I wasn´t here for this troll. I fancy myself a decent troll-handler (if I say so myself). First you must realize that you are extremely unlikely to change his mind, so don´t even try to “connect” – they sure don´t care. All you can expect from such an exchnage is to annoy him and feel good about yourself. The trick is not to let them change the subject. They´ll come up with some bs in order to get you on the defense. Don´t get defensive, don´t get angry, don´t get sidetracked: the only problem there is is modern liberalism. And if you run out of time (and really, who has the time?) employ some good natured ridicule.
A man convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion still
That is consistent with my observations.
I don’t need to hone my arguments with trolls. They have already been honed by arguments in context of islamic terrorism.
Why deal with the weak and pale sauce that is Leftism when you can find the real deal in totalitarian Islam? Islam does not doubt. The Left does not doubt. Islam wishes to create a utopia, the Left wishes to create a utopia. Islam does not mind people dying for their cause, the Left does not mind people dying for their cause.
The fact that Islam is open about their objectives while the Left hides their true views, simply makes the open confrontation with Islam more transparent. And transparency is what you will need when you face duplicitous Leftist labels and EngSoc doublespeak terminology. You want to be very clear on the nature of the enemy. You want to pinpoint their strengths and weaknesses. You want to accurately describe their stratagems and tactics.
I have stopped arguing the facts because the facts do not matter to the true believer. What matters is surprise, strategic advantage, and of course, unorthodox methods.
The Left have strong defensive shields in place for various things. Things such as what they call the Faux News created tea parties. They have strong armor in those spots. That’s why I sneak behind them and stab them in the unarmored kidneys and vital organs.
Always be aware that even the most narcissistic have their inner demons and weaknesses, you just have to find them.
Bill, that bothers me a lot, too.
It’s one thing to be ignorant—we all are in many ways. But to be willfully ignorant, to ordain on the basis of one’s solipsism that forces and events that have affected billions of people are not operative in one’s world is just crazy.
A few years ago I told my now 24-year-old son that his generation would be involved in a fight for the very existence of America, and that the threat would be both internal and external. At the time I was confident that his cohort would rally to the defense of this country. much like the generation that fought WWII.
Now I’m not so sure. It is very rare to run into a civilian person in his 20s who knows much of anything, let alone why this country is worth defending. I guess they are all Marioths now.
While it may be that America is the greatest global actor of all time, it is still subject to the limitations of any character: You have your time on stage, then you must exit. I fear that people like our troll from yesterday are now a slim majority in this country and they will gladly abet in that passing.
God help us.
>>What stunned me was not that they didn’t know the simplest things like those in this Pew Poll — bad as that was — but that THEY DIDN’T CARE.>>
Ok…so in my brave new world, not only will you have to have paid taxes in order to vote, but you have to pass a short test. If you can’t score correctly on – oh say…70% of 10 or 20 questions – you don’t get to vote. Questions would be in the line of match candidate to office, political position on issues that have been advertised…that kind of stuff. Not hard – just requiring _some_ awareness of the people and issues being voted upon.
Oh yeah…and they do seem to think that they just recently discovered sex. The whole world before them was just unaware…!! They just _have_ to spread the word. Not for old folks, though. That’s just embarrassing.
Idiots.
–Y
“The Left have strong defensive shields in place for various things. Things such as what they call the Faux News created tea parties. They have strong armor in those spots.”
It’s only strong in the sense that they stonewall; that they make themselves impervious to facts,and logic.
But, they reveal their weakness in their need to discredit, say, the Tea Parties. Does Anderson Cooper go on and on about the mentally ill man warning of imminent attacks from Mars? No. But they certainly cranked up their BS machine over the Tea Parties, didn’t they. The Tea Parties irked them.
For any trolls listening, that means you don’t get as upset as the Left got about the Tea Parties over the village idiot. You get upset when the full light of day gets turned onto your nonsense. You get upset when an awful lot of sensible people get together, and start talking sense — about you! That you get upset about.
Lacking any cogent response, you start to fling poo like the children you are. Oh yes, yes, I know. You DO have LOTS of cogent arguments. Just ASK you! You just chose not to use any. Any of you. Loudly announcing that magically makes it so in your world, because you live in a world where ALL arguments however nonsensical, are deemed to be equally valid. Well, that “works” as long as society is willing to keep feeding you.
“BUT I HAVE A JOB!! I FEED MYSELF!!” I can hear you bleat — again. Not for long if you keep ignoring, and even destroying what makes the economy that provides that job WORK. You, child that you are, actually think your NEED provides for your needs. I NEED, therefore I AM! Your NEED makes it magically happen!
Oh, the oh so clever “faux news” jibe? You feel no need to ridicule the sad, mentally ill man warning about the Martians. You also don’t see that you are so easy to read. You actually tell us what bugs you!
Unfortunately, a significant proportion of our society has gone adrift. There’s still enough oil in the ship’s bunkers to run the engines, and food in the freezers, but sooner, or even sooner that’s going to STOP, and you will have no concept of what happened or why when the real world supporting your belief-bubble comes crashing down on it. Think of those idiots during Katrina who truly had no clue what to do. Except there won’t be any adults left to come rescue you. You will have destroyed their means, and ability to do so.
Guess who will come then? Can you?
“Oh, the oh so clever “faux news” jibe?”
See, what you don’t LIKE you call false. What you DO like you call true. This is how children think. It’s how they can deny taking cookies while their hand is still in the jar.
It’s only strong in the sense that they stonewall; that they make themselves impervious to facts,and logic.
I prefer to think of it this way. In the same fashion that a man who keeps lifting heavy things with his biceps will improve, after a time, his bicep strength, so it is the same with the Left. They keep doing the same things over and over again, which over time strengthens that particular aspect. They say the same things over and over, they do the same things over and over, and they think the exact same thoughts to any of our arguments over and over. They are creatures of habit, if only because that is how they were designed by their puppetmasters.
And so, to continue the analogy, you likely won’t win an arm wrestle competition with a guy who has kept lifting the same weights over and over again. Far more than you have, because you have slightly more productive and different things and ideas holding your interest. But what you can do is find a weak point. Like the elbow joint. If take your own strength and apply it against a weak point, you can completely render ineffective all the habit grinding time he spent on building up his biceps. Because biceps do not work with a broken arm.
That is always the kind of image you can imagine to be in my head whenever I hear Leftists talk or write about certain subjects pertaining to us.
suek…
I am finally catching up with ‘trolls’ and teabagging. I am out of the loop but had heard about the ‘urban dictionary’ and like a good junior/senior citizen I am, looked up the definition.
Apologies for not jumping into A LIST. Oh, how I long for those. Unfortunately, two burned out headlights and a needed oil change was my list for yesterday. It’s one thing to be in the dark about ‘teabagging’ and quite another to drive in it.
I read all the comments and wonder if our new guest will participate as a regular or is he looking to start his own blog.
I’ve noted the absence of Helen for sometime, so maybe he is her replacement.
Helen’s back! and as always, it is me that she first pokes at.
Y…
I don’t disagree with you. I like the elbow joint thing!
I just think they are also like a brick wall. They’re only strong if, or so long as you choose to beat your head against them; so long as you allow them to define the argument, or battle space. Like the Maginot Line.
Like the Maginot Line the must simply be ignored.
Remember, the American Revolution was supported by considerably fewer than 50% of the population, but the superior ideas prevailed.
Suek said
Good luck with that. I think that a large part of the problem is that there’s an identity crisis that has to be overcome – “I’m a Liberal (or Democrat, or whatever) and proud of it”.
I think that’s very true, and I have no illusions about “converting” the sister-in-law. I’d consider the visit a rousing success if she simply became more aware of her thought process.
And I’d be 110% behind your “tax and test” requirement for suffrage.
>>Remember, the American Revolution was supported by considerably fewer than 50% of the population, >>
You might find it interesting to do a search on the “Three Percenters”… or “III Percenters”…
I just think they are also like a brick wall.
I don’t dispute that, of course.
Now that Helen is back, it will be interesting to see how see responds to the creeping anti-Semitism and Marxism of her hero, the dusky president whose skin color led to him being oppressed and looked down upon by a thoroughly racist America that refused to let him enter Ivy league schools or run for high office.
What elaborate excuse will she offer for his cozying up to the homophobic, racist Castro brothers? Will she tut-tut the sending of the anti-Semite George Mitchell to tell those pesky Israeli Joos to deal with the poor oppressed peace-loving Palestinians with no strings attached?
How will Christian Helen defend her hero’s defense of infanticide?
Tune in, folks, as blackest person on this board explains to us why it was a virtue to vote for somebody based on the color of his skin and how we’ve got to give our deeply tanned (and therefore morally superior) prez the benefit of another 15 or 20 years to get his progressive ideas really rolling.
(Chuck Martel heads off to pop some popcorn and fluff up the ottoman.)
Charles #27:
Surely you jest, Charles! It will be very easy for her.
> responds to the creeping anti-Semitism
She will state that a two-state solution is appropriate, and stop there.
> cozying up to the homophobic, racist Castro brothers
She will state that it’s appropriate to be nice to Cuba for . She will entirely ignore the fact that they are homophobic and racist, just as liberals always do with Iran, including their horrifying hatred of freedom for women. She will NOT address any of that.
> the sending of the anti-Semite George Mitchell to tell those pesky Israeli Joos
She will state that Israel is the reason there is no peace in the Middle East. She will blame them for being unreasonable. She will not address Palestinian terrorism against Jews, or she will claim they have no choice.
> Christian Helen defend her hero’s defense of infanticide
She will state, in one form or another, that a blob of tissue is not a baby. Even if the blob of tissue is breathing and alive when aborted, it should be placed on a closet shelf to expire.
She will ignore your criticism of her belief that we are a deeply racist country; instead she will ignore your sarcasm, pretend you’re being serious about that, and congratulate you on finally realizing how deeply racist we are.
I was going to try to respond as if I were actually her, but it would have taken so much effort that I wasn’t up to that task.
Wish I’d had this link during that discussion. Not that our troll was likely to check it out – he obviously didn’t check the link that indicated that the polar ice caps are increasing in size, which means – if anything – that our oceans may be reduced in level, instead of the reverse….
http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/04/obama-and-pandoras-box.html
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