Civil and religious marriage *UPDATED*
Bookworm on Jun 30 2008 at 1:18 pm | Filed under: Gay marriage
This is the second in my series of marriage posts. My first draft, which was a failure, tried to trace the history of marriage, something that’s much better done by better informed people. What I realized from that valiant, although pointless and time-wasting effort, is that what I’m really interested in is a religion’s interest in marriage, a state’s interest in marriage, and the intersection between those two in America. This post may ultimately not end up being any more useful or interesting than my abandoned effort, but it still accurately represents some of the things I believe we need to think about before signing off on gay marriage.
Before I dive into the substance of my post, let me say here what I always say in connection with these gay marriage posts. I think gay marriage represents a sea change in human relationships. Since the dawn of time, in all cultures, marriage has involved men and women, and that’s true whether we’re talking polygamy or monogamy. Even in Greece, a culture people like to point to as one that encouraged homosexual relationships, marriage itself was still strictly a male/female event. This traditional approach to marriage reflects basic biology, something I explored more here, in my post about the procreative component of marriage.
In other words, what’s being proposed now is something that runs counter to all of human history — and a facet of human history deeply rooted in human biology. That’s not in and of itself a good reason to issue a categorical “no” to gay marriage. It is, however, a very good reason not to rush into the subject and definitely not to let judges, who are one of the weakest links analytically, intellectually and emotionally in modern society, to make the decision for us. This is a topic that requires debate and thoughtful analysis, and I’m doing my bit here, at my blog. So, back to the post:
Religion and marriage:
As far as I know — and please correct me if I’m wrong — all of the world’s major religions incorporate marriage as a component of faith. The Catholic Church defines marriage as one of the sacraments. For the uninitiated (and I count myself among that crowd), Wikipedia has what seems to me to be a nice summary of what the sacraments are:
According to the Catechism, Jesus instituted seven sacraments and entrusted them to the Church.[46] These are Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders and Holy Matrimony. Sacraments are visible rituals which Catholics see as providing God’s grace to all those who receive them with the proper mindset or disposition (ex opere operato).
In other words, marriage, if it is at all possible to achieve that state, is an integral part of the Catholic faith. Deliberately shunning marriage is, I presume, tantamount, to turning your back on God’s grace. Although I’m shaky on Protestant doctrine when it comes to marriages, I have the sense that, while Protestantism abandoned the terminology of the “sacraments,” it kept the concept, with marriage being an integral expression of religious faith.
Jews too see marriage as an essential act of faith, putting into effect both (1) God’s direct command that his followers are fruitful and multiply, and (2) God’s intention, expressed when he created Eve as Adam’s companion, that men and women form lasting companionable partnerships.
And as we all know Islam also strongly advocates the marital relationship.
A little research reveals that in Hinduism, too, marriage is a sacred religious covenant. About.com has a brief summary, which I quote from here at length, since it leads to my next point about religion and marriage:
In Hinduism, man and woman represent the two halves of the divine body. There is no question of superiority or inferiority between them. However, it is a scientific fact that the emotional side is more developed in women. This does not mean that intellectually, women are inferior. Hindu history is witness to the super-women, like Gargi, Maitreyi and Sulabha, whose faculty of reasoning was far superior to that of ordinary mortals. But owing to organic differences in their physical and emotional constitutions, women are temperamentally more emotional than men.
[snip]
The idea behind the institution of marriage in Hinduism is to foster, not self-interest, but love for the entire family. Practice of self-restraint is the ideal of marriage in Hinduism. It is the love and duty cultivated for the entire family that prevents the break-ups.
[snip]
The present-day Hindu husbands fail to recognize the sacrifices and lofty ideals of Hindu wives, and thus compel them to follow the worst of the West. During the nuptial ceremony in a Vedic marriage, both the bride and the bridegroom take oath for the practice of self-restraint, to work together for the welfare of the family and to help each other to attain spiritual peace. This lofty ideal of sanctity is a great gift of Hinduism to the world at large.
As you probably noticed, the above description has all sorts of pragmatic reasons for marriage: self-restraint, companionship, family and the complimentary nature of male and female emotional lives. Judaism, too, has a focus on marriage that can be seen as very pragmatic, and untied to things spiritual: children and companionship. Indeed, I’m willing to bet that, if you go back in time and study the origin of marriage in each of the world’s religion, you’ll see that it’s tied to some practical goal.
At this point, of course, advocates for changing marriage start to argue that since marriage is a pragmatic means to an end even in the context of religion, religions should be changed to accommodate gay marriage, which is also a means to an end of companionship, family and (through adoption or insemination), children. This argument is plain wrong, though.
Regardless of the reasons the religions advance for marriage, the fact remains that heterosexual marriage is an integral part of each religion, and is seen as a necessary step for any given religion’s practitioners to take to achieve religious fulfillment or commitment. A civil society cannot change these fundamental doctrinal facts, no matter how much it is able to rationalize the reasons for the nexus between marriage and faith. Any given religion’s control over the marriage of its practitioners is sacrosanct and untouchable no matter how much you try to rationalize it away.
The state and marriage:
The modern state encourages marriage. Why? Originally, states were inextricably intertwined with religion. Starting with Constantine, where the ruler went, so went the people. If religion demanded marriage, well then, dammit, so would the religious state. That’s not the case anymore, especially in America. Thanks to the First Amendment, the American government cannot mandate that everyone get married because “X” religion says so, nor can it demand that all who want to get married have to do so under the aegis of “X” religion.
Although there can be no religious element to marriage in American, the state is nevertheless heavily vested in the union of men and women. This involvement is completely separate from religious unions, although, confusingly, they share the same name: marriage. The deal in America is that, if you want to have a solely religious marriage, that’s fine — only you won’t get any of the benefits the state extends to people who simultaneously enter in a civil marriage contract. What are those benefits? Here’s a partial list proponents of gay marriage assembled (from an alleged total of 1400 benefits), along with some comments from me, in blue:
- joint parenting; [This is a biological one: his sperm, her egg. However, it can be circumvented by having the non-biological parent adopt the child, something that has happened in step-families for centuries]
- joint adoption; [My understand of adoption is that both parents have to be vetted. I assume there's an extra procedural hurdle to issue the adoption papers for John Smith and John Doe, as opposed to Mrs. and Mr. John and Jane Doe. However, it certainly hasn't stopped numerous gay couples I know from adopting. Adoption is always a procedural pain in the neck from the stories I've heard.]
- joint foster care, custody, and visitation (including non-biological parents); [See above.]
- status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent; [This can be arranged contractually.]
- joint insurance policies for home, auto and health; [This can be arranged contractually.]
- dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support; [This can be arranged contractually.]
- immigration and residency for partners from other countries; [I'll agree that this is definitely a difference between people married, versus people merely committed to each other. Marriage would seem to add some credibility to the claim that the non-resident is involved in a true relationship with the American citizen, rather than a sham for immigration purposes. Given that both our immigration policies and are marital policies are increasingly sham-like themselves, it's hard to believe that this is an insurmountable hurdle.]
- inheritance automatically in the absence of a will; [Write a will. Most married people I know have written wills anyway, because the "one size fits all" of an intestacy statute is a disaster waiting to happen.]
- joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment; [In San Francisco, landlord tenant laws are such that this is not a valid reason to claim marriage as a benefit over non-marriage. Once you're in an apartment, you've got squatters rights, which is one of the reasons I refused to yield to my husband's importuning that we buy residential properties in SF to rent. I don't know the law in places that don't protect tenants as much. Again, though, change the contract.]
- inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate); [Properties can be held in joint tenancy by non-married people. This is again a contractual matter. You can set up trusts, re-title property, etc.]
- benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare; [I have no idea about this, but suspect that it's true that federal government benefits cannot be amended by contract.]
- spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home; [I don't know about this -- taxes are a blank slate for me -- but I assume that there are again contractual or commercial steps one can take to circumvent this problem. I freely concede I may be wrong here.]
- veterans’ discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns; [Joint filing of tax returns is no privilege, it's a penalty. I don't know about veteran's benefits but, given that the military won't recognize homosexual relationships, I'm sure it's true.]
- joint filing of customs claims when traveling; [BFD.]
- wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children; [If you've adopted the children, I don't believe that they can be deprived of wrongful death benefits. I don't know about the surviving partner, although I assume that, again, most business and insurance companies have set this up so that a person can be named contractually.]
- bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child; [Again, adoption solves the child problem; and I don't know about the partner problem.]
- decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her; [This can be resolved contractually, if the deceased is an adult.]
- crime victims’ recovery benefits; [Don't know.]
- loss of consortium tort benefits; [Probably depends on the state in which the consortium tort benefits are claimed.]
- domestic violence protection orders; [Depends on the state, I guess. Also, anyone who is the victim if violence can, in theory, get a protective order. The problem is that, whether you're partnered or not, they don't do much good. Also, if you're not married, you theoretically have an easier time getting out of the domestic violence situation than someone who is married and whose life, as a matter of law, is deeply entwined with that of the violent partner. In other words, this sounds redundant.]
- judicial protections and evidentiary immunity [Evidentiary immunity -- no doubt about it. There is no law saying a gay partner cannot be forced to testify. I don't know about other judicial protections.]
Clearly, a lot of the automatic benefits — and burdens — bestowed on married couples require some extra work for gay people. And there are definitely some benefits that won’t go to gay people at all. None of these details, though, change the fundamental question: Is it in the state’s interest to make all these benefits automatically available to gay people? States that have legalized civil unions have said yes, taking away the complaint that the local state government is depriving gays of the same ease of access to government benefits that is granted to straight married couples. Presumably, the federal government could do the same thing without actually calling it marriage.
But I’ve digressed — again. Let me restate my question: Why the heck does a civil state care about marriage to the point where it extends all these benefits? There are lots of answers. I’ll start with a few, and leave you to fill in the rest.
One of the primary reasons is convenience, both for the married people and for the state. Since our culture’s default setting is for heterosexuals to pair up, and since our Judeo-Christian heritage has seen to it that this pairing up falls under the rubric of marriage, it’s infinitely easier if the state treats these pairs as a single entity. Half the tax returns (even if people are penalized for filing them), half the number of adoption forms, half the this and half the that. This also allows for huge numbers of presumptions about parenting — who has genetic rights in the children, who can be relied upon to care for the children, who would want his or her estate to go to the children, etc. The efficiency of treating permanently joined couples as one, and of making certain presumptions about them as a matter of law, is overwhelming. This benefit — to the state and to married people — would not change if marriage were extended to gay couples.
Intangible societal benefits also flow from marriage, and this is one of those things where the state’s benefit is our benefit too. As I’ve mentioned in my first post about gay marriage, marriage stabilizes men by focusing their testosterone on the protection of their wives and children and, by extension, on the protection of a stable, coherent society that will provide the maximum benefit to those same wives and children. Marriage is also beneficial to women since, biologically, they spend a lot of down time being pregnant and caring for children. A stable marriage ensures that they won’t have to be dependent on themselves, strangers or the state for these basic needs.
Stable married couples also tend to demand stable communities. To begin with, they want safe, attractive communities for their children. They also tend to be much, much more sociable. The moment I had children, I realized I’d joined the largest club in the world. It was no longer a matter of sporting the right clothes, or walking a dog in the right neighborhood, or having the right hobby in order to find people to talk to. Everyone who has ever had or wanted a child was an instant acquaintance. This creates intangible community bonds that are invisible to those who don’t have children. These bonds, again, encourage a thriving society where everyone, for his or her own benefit, works for the common good.
Frankly, gays with children can join this club too, and would have these interests too, so the state should be encouraging gays to have children. The question, of course, is whether marriage is a necessary prerequisite to encourage gays to have children. I don’t have the answer to that.
Do the above factors include “encouraging traditional values?” I don’t know. If by “traditional values” we mean having children and raising them to be useful members of society, defending our country, keeping our communities safe and thriving, etc., the factors I’ve set out above are definitely policies aimed at preserving and encouraging traditional values, whether or not civil marriage is extended to gays. If we think “encouraging traditional values” must include as one of those values “heterosexual marriage,” we come to a standstill. In that case, the state cannot simultaneously preserve heterosexual marriage while opening marriage to gays.
At the civil side, it all seems to boil down to what one believes should be the state’s ultimate goals. If one believes that heterosexual marriage is an ultimate goal, or if one believes that the nature of the gay lifestyle is such that, even extending marriage to gays would not bring them into the “stable society” fold, the debate is over. There is no societal virtue in having the state recognize gay marriage. If one believes, however, that gay marriage would increase the state’s ability to impose on its citizens all of the traditional virtues (but for heterosexual marriage, of course), while simultaneously increasing convenience for both the state and its citizens, gay marriage becomes a viable option.
Religious freedom in America versus gay marriage
Again, though, that’s not the end of the analysis. We continue to have problems because of America’s unique nature, which has seen the law develop so that the courts and the government have the power to prevent private individuals and organizations from depriving fellow citizens of rights. Even if we agree that the state will not be compromised by allowing gay marriage, we still run the risk of creating a Constitutional Frankstein’s monster.
As we’ve seen already from legions of newspaper stories, both at home and abroad, gays are routinely, and successfully, suing religious individuals and organizations (or bringing administrative proceedings) in an effort to force them to fall in line with state norms about homosexuality, even if those norms are antithetical to religious norms. Individuals and organizations that don’t want to extend benefits to same sex partners, or who don’t want to arrange adoptions for gay couples, or who don’t want to use their venues to host same sex marriages, or whatever else is being asked of them, are being challenged through the courts and through government bureaucracies. Their religious convictions are being attacked through state vehicles.
These bureaucratic and judicial attacks would seem to run directly counter to the First Amendment’s first clause: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” The government is prohibiting the free exercise of someone’s religion if it forces that person to lose his livelihood or his home or his business if he won’t engage in acts antithetical to what are still fairly mainstream religious beliefs.
In other words, no matter how one tries, as I did, to make a pro and con list of the religious and civil aspects of marriage, one still runs into a single, possibly insurmountable problem: For the state, in the form of the federal government, to impose gay marriage throughout American means that Congress will, by definition, have enacted a law prohibiting the free exercise of someone’s religion. That violates the First Amendment. The only way not to violate it is to enact a Constitutional amendment, something that might state “Congress may pass a law allowing gay marriage and that will be the exception to the prohibition against Congress passing a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion.” Absent that change, which is an enormous undertaking, I actually don’t see how the feds can allow gay marriage without violating the existing Constitution.
Of course, given the increasing activism of the Courts and government bureaucracies, and their routine willingness to subordinate religious freedom to the intangible goal of equality of outcome, my question, while academically interesting is probably moot. I can assure you that, in an Obama Supreme Court, the justices will easily find some intangible right to gay marriage that entirely trumps the First Amendment.
I feel I should state some sort of conclusion here, but I don’t rightly now what my conclusion is. I can summarize my argument, though: Most religions do not and cannot be forced by the state to recognize gay marriage. The state’s more pragamatic interests in marriage probably would not be too greatly compromised by gay marriage. The state’s vision of society might or might not be comprised by gay marriage, depending on what that vision is. But all of that may be moot because it appears that, if Congress recognizes gay marriage, which is the ultimate gay demand, it will create a fundamental clash with the First Amendment that will be resolved only by the Supreme Court. And as the tight victory for the Second Amendment reveals, even the currently composed Supreme Court could go either way. An Obama Supreme Court will toss religious freedom out the window.
As is always the case, the way this should be resolved is through a Constitutional amendment (which is how the abortion matter should also be addressed), but the activists will never go that route when they think they have the Courts in their pockets.
Your thoughts?
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UPDATE: Here are to further points. First, this is an example of what happens in a society when men don’t get the calming influence of marriage and the societal-beneficial investment into a family.
Second, I wanted to point out something I hadn’t made clear in my post, namely the fact that, in America, freedom of worship is not limited to doctrinal practices. That is, it’s not simply that the government can’t make a law prohibiting church services or banning the reading of the Torah. In case after case (many involving Jehovah’s witnesses in the 30s through 50s), the Court’s have held that people cannot be forced to engage in day-to-day life practices antithetical to their beliefs. The most obvious example is the fact that the government has routinely issued conscientious objector status to those who can show that they are true adherents of religions that genuinely have pacificism as a core part of the belief system (such as Quakers).
UPDATE II: It’s people like this gentleman (and I’m being generous saying, not only “gentleman” but also “people”), who are common fixtures at gay pride parades, who may give some Americans the impression that gays are agitating for marriage for reasons other than merging with societal norms. That is, perhaps they’re just making a political point: We want it, not because it leads us to our ultimate goals of societal normalcy, but because we currently don’t have it.
UPDATE III: Scott’s comment and an email from DQ both tell me I need to clarify something. Here goes:
The distinction I have in mind when I make my First Amendment argument is predicated on the differences between “mere” cultural practices and core religious doctrine. Both Scott and DQ are correct that there is nothing to stop the state from issuing civil marriage licenses. No one would contend that, if it did so, though, that law would force religious authorities — rabbis, priests, imams, etc. — to perform gay marriages. I know that the state would not get involved in church affairs in that way.
The people I’m thinking about are the ordinary citizens whose lives or livelihoods intersect with the marriage business. Examples of this would be the Massachusetts Catholic charity that was put out of business because it felt doctrinally barred from giving children to gay couples. Another example, which happened in England (but could happen here under new laws) is the owner of a fancy reception hall being fined and put out of business because he won’t open his home to gay weddings.
Incidentally, the ban against polygamy (which DQ mentioned in his email to me as an example of the US messing with religious marital principles) was grossly unconstitutional if one believes that, as of the 1860s, Mormonism was, in fact, a true religion. The only way the US gov got away with it was (1) because Mormonism was not an established religion and (2) Utah wanted desperately to move from being a territory to becoming a state. Islamic polygamy, which is banned under anti-polygamy laws, actually has the same problem, although I don’t know Islam enough to know whether one can argue that polygamy is a cultural practice, not a doctrine. If the former, it can be banned. If the latter, it’s questionable whether it can be.
With the major faiths – Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, etc. – we take it as given that they’re true religions and not merely convenient fictions for certain behaviors (which is the negative view Americans of the 1860s took of Mormonism). Even when we separate core doctrines, central to the religion itself, from practices rising up around the religion, we see that marriage is a central practice to each religion. Given that marriage is not merely a ritual or habit but is, instead, vital to the religion, the US theoretically should not be able to force religious citizens (as opposed to their priests, rabbis and imams) to participate in gay marriage ceremonies – or, worse, to be punished for refusing to participate.
So, again in theory, not only does not the rabbi not have to perform the ceremony, the Jewish caterer should not be sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars for refusing to provide the food. It’s the latter person who concerns me at a Constitutional level (the caterer), not the former (the rabbi), whom I know the government will leave alone.
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Dear me, so many words.
You’ve succeeded in convincing me you are not versed in the history of women’s rights.
If the Church can’t learn to act in a civil manner, then the state can, should, and has in the past simply taken away it’s right to act in that realm.
Up until the Civil war women were rarely punished by the state (prostitutes were the exception). The Church had the right and the responsibility to punish women for crime and other sins, like speaking your mind.
It must have been chaos considering the wide range of feminine standards in American folk cultures.
The Church proved itself incapable of instituting punishments in a fair way, so the state took over.
The Church is totally unreasonable about gay marriage (hanging on desperately to the idea that gays should be stoned or burned or worse), so it makes sense that the state should take away its right to perform marriages at all.
If you are going to do a history, arranged marriage was the norm world wide!!! It was an agreement between families, or slave owners, or at the convenience of the Landlord. (Your examples show that religion was just a stand in for what we now consider the role of the state. And the idea the Hinduism has a single doctrine is laughable.)
Daoism and Buddhism do not have marriage. Confucianism did insist that men carry on their family line through having children but marriage was/is entirely a civil contract between families.
Scott, I wasn’t talking about women’s rights or prostitution or arranged marriages or the state’s role in protecting those. All of the practices you mention are cultural, not core religious doctrine.
What I was talking about is the fact that (a) all religions advance one form or another of heterosexual marriage as one of the core doctrinal practices of the religion; (b) the state has reasons for supporting marriage that are entirely separate from any religion; and (c) legislation creating gay marriage clashes with fundamental, core religious doctrine.
Again, I was not talking about cultural practices that have grown up around religious doctrine and that can be subject to state pressure. The state, however, is not supposed to push people around on doctrinal issues, and it’s edging perilously close to doing that.
As you may have noticed, I pretty much concluded that, from the state point of view, there’s no reason not to have gay marriage, since the benefits and burdens to the state remain more or less the same. However, passing laws the impinge on core religious doctrines is a First Amendment problem no matter how many other rights you want to protect.
LaShawn is back blogging politics again! (she took a break to blog about music and the music industry) Her post today is on topic.
http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2008/07/01/fatherlessness-as-child-abuse/
The burdens to the state do not remain the same! And that means that the burdens are increased to all for the behavior of some.
The Domestic Partnership Law in the state of OR (Feb. ‘08) provides for insurance for homosexual person and partner AND for straight couple who refuse to get married. As in Scandanavian countries, this will just encourage increasing numbers of all people to not get married, period. The state is saying that it is acceptable to parent out of wedlock, period. Lack of a two-parent home (for so many reasons I won’t even begin to address here) is foundational to so many anti-societal behaviors raging through our culture. The state is saying that it is acceptable to tax more and more to become a ‘parent’ to more and more children that result from marriage-less couples who think that it’s not about the children, it’s all about ME, wonderful ME.
Scott must live in Iran - I don’t know any churches that stone or burn homosexuals.
>>As you may have noticed, I pretty much concluded that, from the state point of view, there’s no reason not to have gay marriage, since the benefits and burdens to the state remain more or less the same.>>
I disagree with you on this. Given a population of A,B,and C, with A being married heterosexual couples, B being homosexual couples and C being unattached singles, at the moment, you have certain privileges being granted to Group A. Group B wants to enjoy those same privileges. Suppose that B is given those privileges…why is the government discriminating against group C? Because that’s what it is…if the majority - that is, groups A and B…get certain benefits, what about the minority group C? But if _everybody_ gets the same bennies, then they aren’t bennies anymore - they’re just the rules. If you don’t give the benefits to Group C, then is there going to be a semi-requirement that everybody has a “life buddy”? In other words, you leave home, designate your significant other, change significant other until you find a significant other you want to spend your life with, and then call it a marriage? After all, if you don’t, then you don’t get the bennies. No more “roommates”…just significant others.
So…what is the purpose of the benefits? Some are legal shorthand, I think. Some simplify inheritance. Others were the recognition that women stayed home and had no earnings because they raised children. Should women be required to work? Some are really benefits - meaning something for nothing, in effect - like health benefits.
I guess there are a couple of points here I don’t really follow. First of all — and God knows I hear this in many places — I remain unclear how expanding civil marriage to include same-sex couples affects the religious institution directly. You correctly note that there are religious expansions of marriage we don’t recognize in the USA. There are also religious restrictions on marriage we don’t recognize, eg, my understanding is that the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize a civil marriage made outside the Church, and won’t perform a marriage in the Church unless certain other conditions are met. Yet somehow church marriage has survived.
It also seems to me a little unlikely that expanding civil marriage to same-sex couples would produce a lot of competition for traditional marriage; I very much doubt there are a lot of gays who decide to marry “outside their preference” for the advantages of marriage.
So it seems to me a little hard to credit the argument that expanding civil marriage in another direction will harm traditional marriage.
At the same time, we wouldn’t expect, and I would oppose, any attempt to force a priest to perform, or a hall to rent space for, a marriage of a couple that doesn’t meet their religious conditions, whether it’s because the couple is of the same sex or because one of the members of an opposite-sex couple is from a different religion.
Now, on your laundry list of the options for same-sex couples, there are a few point where I don’t think you’ve got the facts right: for example, you might well give your same-sex partner a power of attorney to act for you if you’re unable to act for yourself, but if so, you’d better be prepared for your partner to bring the power of attorney with you to the Emergency Room at any instant, under any circumstance, and if your traditional next of kin show up, your partner had better bring a lawyer as well and be prepared to litigate the issue. And you’d better hope your next of kin don’t put “do not resuscitate” in your chart while you’re trying to get a court order.
That’s just one point, but it’s an example of the more overarching issue: it’s possible that you can, with the aid of an attorney and a good knowledge of contract law, establish the whole set of conditions needed to in some sense simulate the effects of civil marriage. But you’ll be doing it at $300 an hour, and it’ll be a fair lot of hours; I haven’t seen a recent estimate, but I recall a gay couple I knew in North Carolina telling me that it had cost them upwards of $10,000 20 years ago.
Here in Colorado, the cost of a marriage license is around $20.
Arguing that gays can get the advantages of civil marriage through contract law seems to be arguing that it’s not in some sense a disadvantage that it is 500 times more expensive.
I commend you for taking on such a huge topic. It’s wonderful to have a discussion on this critical issue, hopefully thoughtfully and without rancor. In the end, the constitution does not require citizens to be rational though, and sometimes we can do nothing but fall back on ‘this is what I believe.’ I did not comment on your previous post, but hope to weigh in this time.
It seems there are really two topics that are occuring at the same time– both need to be explored.
1. If you remove religion from the discussion, is there any compelling reason for the government to place restrictions on marriage, or to regulate a ‘family unit’. While the Scandinavians may represent the leading edge of post-Christian thought (at least that’s my impression from my time there), possibly examining the Soviet Union or present day China might offer some insight to a society post-God, since prohibitions to homosexuality are usually considered religious.
2. What are the limits to the first amendment. Can the government compel citizens to violate their deeply held religious beliefs when they conflict with goals the government wishes to advance.
Real men drink Budweiser beer,Jack Daniel’s whiskey and smoke camel cigarettes. And they have sexual relations with real women that have real children and if they are really women even have jobs or own businesses and contribute to society and they even marry.And some men even have done military service (women also) They don’t sponge off of society.And they vote.Any other questions.
OK then I guess I misunderstood you. You weren’t making a historical argument? I was under the impression that “conservative” in its most banal usage means: “don’t change things from the way they were.”
But you seem to be saying that you believe there are “core religious doctrines” which all religions have in common (you have to stretch credulity to get there, but for the sake of argument I’ll give it to you). In other words, this “core” might change over time (since even punishing adultery with death use to be “core doctrine”) but the change doesn’t matter. What IS “core doctrine” right at this moment in time is what matters.
In other words you are arguing that the First Amendment functions as a sort of “temporary insanity” defense for religiously motivated anti-social behavior. Far out.
If you only do catering for people who are members of your Church, the state doesn’t get involved. If you do catering on the open market and you put it in writing that you don’t cater to children, or people who watch sports, or people who kiss in public–that is your right–you can discriminate. But if you put it in writing that you won’t cater to Protestant Irish, Indians, or gays–you are in for a taste of State coercion.
If your so called “core doctrine” is discriminatory, I really don’t see how it can survive in the public domain. What??… since intentional single-motherhood is a violation of “core doctrine” now your Christian Corner Market can argue that they don’t have to sell sodas to single-mothers?
Good thing Wal-Mart had a booth at Gay Pride!
The First Amendment really only protects a very limited definition of religion.
Thank you so much, all of you, for your comments. As DQ and Scott noticed right away, some of my points are definitely muddled. Charlie also picked up on that.
I should give you an idea of my mental starting point, which is a rather obscure one. In England, up until about the middle of the 19th Century, people who were not Church of England could not enter Oxford or Cambridge, nor could they hold government jobs. There was a religious test going on. That religious test already existed when the Founders drafted the First Amendment. Part of the idea behind the First Amendment was that the government could no coerce people into changing core religious beliefs in order to have access to government benefits and programs.
I had this in mind when I thought of the fact that in those states (Massachusetts) and countries (England) that have legalized gay relationships, people are being coerced into changing core religious beliefs. They are being told that they will be deprived of their livelihoods and fined money if they don’t abandon their beliefs. So this is not a case of the government forcing the church to do something; it’s a case of the government forcing the church’s members to do something.
Now, one can always drop of the matrix, so to speak. Orthodox Jews have done that forever. Their women don’t apply for jobs as as Hooters’ waitresses. However, marriage is such a fundamental aspect of life, and civil marriage has so many intersections with just about anything anybody does, that it strikes me as Constitutionally unreasonable to ask people to give up their belief systems to accommodate a newly created concept of gay marriage.
By the way, I also think BrianE is correct when he says that there is also a visceral sense of this is appropriate or this is not appropriate. My libertarian side says that, if we can scootch by the First Amendment problem I foresee, the government should let people of good will marry if they want. However, my conservative side (not politically conservative, just innately conservative) is having a hard time wrapping itself around the concept of deciding by judicial fiat to change the nature of human relations since time immemorial. Of course, if it’s the right thing to do, it’s the right thing to do, no matter my gut. I just want to think about it, which is the point of these posts.
Also, once I’ve thought about it, if I decide that gay marriage is the right thing, I still think it’s the subject for a Constitutional Amendment, not for some judge’s idea of “what’s right.” The conservative side of me deeply resents treating the Constitution like silly putty that can be folded, spindled and mutilated to accommodate every new idea, whether or not it can reasonably be read in the Constitution.
I think Scott in SF has already by-passed the discussion of the traditions of marriage and and has moved the discussion to a practical legal one.
Scott in SF, I’m curious, are you in a long-term monogamous relationship, and if you are, would you be offended for or protective of your children if they saw the events at the recent Gay Pride day?
Would you be supportive of ‘civil unions’ for gay couples and ‘marriage’ for heterosexual couples, if both offered the same legal rights? The only distinction would be the name?
Scott: DQ came up with the same argument about the government interceding when people claim religion to discriminate against blacks or people of other ethnicities or nationalities. That’s not a valid argument. Last I looked, there was nothing in Catholicism’s Seven Sacraments about race. Same for Judaism’s core beliefs. And same for the other religions. Religion was an excuse, but spiritual salvation didn’t depend on discrimination. Nor does going to heaven depend on discriminating against gays. But in all those religions, the basic man/woman nature of religion is an essential part of the covenant with God. I think that, for the state to interfere with people’s beliefs in that regard is a First Amendment problem that can be addressed by another Amendment.
Hmmm. Do you suppose you could point out the particular clause of the Constitution that would have to be amended to “grant” the right? (I tend to the “natural law” theory, so I’m only using the word “grant” for convenience.)
It would seem, in fact, that since we’re establishing that a same-sex couple can’t obtain the same legal protections as an opposite-sex couple via contractual agreements(see your post and my comment) without substantially greater difficulty, substantially greater expense, and less certainty of successfully exercising those agreements when they’re most essential, there’s a pretty good case on the face of it that same-sex relationships are not equally protected under the law.
It would also seem that since the Constitution already contains the Equal Protection clause, the need for a specific amendment to grant gay people equal protection is obviated — which is much the same argument as the conservative argument against the Equal Rights Amendment, come to think of it. Are you proposing the need for a Constitutional Amendment that says “With reference to Amendment 14 section 1: where it says ‘equal protection under the laws’, we really meant it, even with respect to homosexuals”?
Just to be emphatic, let me repeat that I think it would be wrong for “equal protection” in that context to be extended to a positive right to, eg, force a priest to perform same-sex weddings. In fact, I think a lot of the existing “anti-discrimination” laws, logically, fail the 14th Amendment too. But the idea that we need a specific amendment at this point to extend equal protection to one group of people seems rather to mock the notion that the text of the Constitution should determine what the Courts should hold.
Brian:
I’m not Scott, but Brian, can you explain to me what relationship you see between same-sex marriage and offensive behavior? Could you perhaps compare and contrast that with the implications toward heterosexual marriage, and whether heterosexual marriage ought to be permitted, when a heterosexual woman flashes her breasts during Mardi Gras?
Would you be supportive of civil unions for everyone, whether opposite sex or same sex? After all, the only distinction would be the name.
(That, by the way, is actually the solution I’d propose. Define a legal relationship, whether you call it “civil marriage”, or “civil unions”, or “Fred”, and distinguish it from traditional marriage in the same way we distinguish Canon Law from civil law.)
Charlie–
Because I don’t know what is considered ‘normal’ and what would be ‘offensive’ in the gay community, I posed the question to determine whether Scott would apply the core parental value that children need to be protected from viewing emotionally traumatizing behavor for his children.
I would be offended and would protect my children from being placed in a position of viewing a woman baring her breast at Mardi Gras, or on TV.
But the San Francisco Gay Pride day included sex– with multiple partners, sadism, and other behaviors that I think most Americans would be offended by.
I know this is straying from the topic, but do a small or significant minority of gay couples seeking to enter a legally binding contract, expect the relationship to be mutually monogamous?
I ask these questions, since as a traditionalist, I view these traits to be basic to both marriage and raising children.
This is from the website Gay.com– “”Happily ever after.” For many men, this means a lifelong monogamous relationship — it’s the storybook romantic ideal. However, for most long-term gay couples, reality involves at least the occasional ménage à trois or “fourgy.” Open relationships are common in our community — and whether this is to our benefit is the subject of heated debate.”
Does this attitude carry over to gay couples that want to raise children?
If one of the benefits to marriage for society is to teach certain values to the next generation– commitment, faithfulness, trust– to name a few off the top of my head, why would society see a benefit to gay couples raising children if they didn’t share those values.
Before you point out the number of heterosexual couples that fail to uphold these standards, these couples at least started the relationship with these expectations.
Leaving children aside for the moment, this recognition by the gay community that monogamy is not even a goal, means that we’re talking about different relationships when describing heterosexual and gay couples.
Does society have a stake in allowing these distinctions to blur?
Brian, you’re confounding two issues (at least two.) One of them is the “equal protection” issue: I argue that there’s a good argument to be made for allowing “Fred” to same-sex couples purely on equal-protection grounds. (Basically, try doing a substitution: can you construct an argument against equal access to marriage for same-sex couples that couldn’t be made into a common argument against marriage for couples of different races 75 years ago, purely by textual substitution?)
As to your “traditionalist” arguments, let’s look at them. You offer the question about people doing offensive things, and wonder if some of the flamers at the Gay Pride Parades are “offensive” in that community? I can promise you they are, and believe me, you’ve never seen social derision until you’ve seen an old queen deriding a leatherboy.
But so what? At least in this context, you wouldn’t think that some heterosexual people doing offensive things was a reason to disallow marriage to opposite-sex couples, would you?
(This is my own little veer, but this is also something where the whole notion of a universal idea of what’s offensive is a little difficult to credit: nudists in this country seem to cope with children seeing naked bodies reasonably well. Naked breasts are pretty common in most other cultures: see any magazine stand in Europe, any Carnival in Brazil, or innumerable issus of National Geographic. It’s not like we blindfold a breastfeeding baby. Animals copulating are offensive to city folks in this country; out on the farm, we manage to stand up to the threat fairly well. But I digress.)
Similarly with monogamy: first of all, extramarital sex is pretty common in heterosexual couples too. Considering the prevalence of accepted mistresses in most of Europe and throughout South America, and of concubinage, mistresses, and open prostitution throughout Asia, the notion that there’s even a general goal of monogamy among heterosexuals seems hard to credit. There does appear to be a goal of ensuring that women be restricted to one male, which is easiest explained by the desire that a male not devote resources to raising another males’ children, but even that is hardly universal.
So is that an argument for the elimination of heterosexual marriage. Is it an argument about marriage in any way?
If not, what’s the place of an argument about monogamy in the acceptability of same-sex marriage?
>>If you do catering on the open market and you put it in writing that you don’t cater to children, or people who watch sports, or people who kiss in public–that is your right–you can discriminate>>
This is already a legal issue…Arizona wedding photographers refused to photograph a gay wedding, and are being sued. Shouldn’t they be allowed to refuse any customers they choose? Churches are being sued if they won’t hold weddings for gays? If these marriages are legal, should the couples be granted that they have grounds to sue?
Written in 2004, these proposals were included in an overall article stressing the need to elect John Kerry:
“Support Civil Unions as a Steppingstone Measure. Where it is proposed, civil union legislation should be supported. ”
“Reposition Same-Sex Marriage as a Family-Friendly Institution. Progressives must wage a PR battle to establish gay marriage as enhancing, not threatening family, values. One compromise might be to trade domestic partners’ benefits for marriage rights. That is, all benefits (financial, estate, legal, adoption, etc.) for all couples, gay or straight, would be tied to marital status. ”
I’m not a lawyer, so the arguments surrounding the 14th amendment may better be left to someone with specific knowledge. The little I know suggests that the state’s interest in preserving traditional marriage would supercede the equal protection clause.
I don’t know about leatherboys and old queen’s, but the report I saw of the event didn’t include any ‘derision’. In fact, the few comments I have made with people familiar with the event, seemed to suggest a sort of ‘frat-boy’ justification of it. It left the impression on my part that these activities aren’t all that unusual, except for the fact they all took place on public streets.
Why this matters is this: With the right of marriage will come the right of gay couples to adopt and rear children. The argument you make suggesting that since heterosexual couples don’t do a very good job raising children justifies extending the priveledge to a group who by their own admission don’t share the values necessary to sustain a traditional society is not logical to me.
I really don’t care what the norms are for Europe or South America or what nudists do. We have PG and PG-13 ratings on our movies because we believe that children should not be exposed to certain behaviors.
I don’t know where you live but ‘extramarital sex’ isn’t all that common here and yes, a notion of heterosexual monogamy is a reasonable goal for society to promote. I also don’t buy the theory that society seeks to restrict only women to monogamous relationships for the convenience of the male, so we don’t have to devote resources to raising someone else’s children.
That’s fine, Brian. I’m challenging you to argue that the state has that interest. So far, you’re primarily asserting it.
I will say though, that the argument that the state’s interest in preserving other traditions superceded equal protection hasn’t worked out very well in, eg, Brown v Board of Education.
I’m not quite clear why you think your assertion of specific ignorance, and generalizations based on second and third hand knowledge, are supposed to be arguments in your favor.
Well, I suspect you’re using a meaning of the term “logical” that’s not familiar to me, since you just raised another red herring here. (Hint: I hadn’t addressed children.) In any case, however, I think you’ll find that heterosexual couples are examined pretty closely for their moral standing; why would homosexual couples be different (except for the obvious point that being a same-sex couple per se wouldn’t be evidence of immorality in such a case.)
Well, again, I’m not clear how either ignorance, or specifically declining to consider contrary evidence, helps your position of making a logical argument, but I am kind of suggesting that if you got out a little more you might discover that there’s less to be so excited about than you think.
Really? What color is the sky on your planet? Here on Earth, in the USA, the usual reports have it as upwards of 40 percent of males, and 20+ percent of females, have had extramarital sex at least once — and there’s every reason to believe that those statistics are somewhat under-reporting reality.
Not to mention ponies for everyone. But I think we’re getting down to it here: you believe that the state ought to promote heterosexual monogamy. That’s fine, I wouldn’t want to challenge your belief. I just don’t feel bound by it. If you want the state to do so based on something other than your belief, then I think you should argue for it. When you do, I think it’s legitimate to challenge those arguments, logically.
So far, though, what you’ve offered are:
The specific statement that you’re ignorant of the background of “equal protection” arguments, so you don’t want to address those; I’ll just point out now that since the equal protection argument was my particular one, this might not have strengthened your case very much.
the assertion that “frat boy” antics at the (admittedly over the top) San Francisco Pride parade prove there’s something about homosexuals that makes them unsuitable for marriage; so, I ask, why is it that admittedly over the top heterosexual antics at Mardi Gras, Fasching, or Karneval parades don’t disqualify heterosexuals?
And an assertion that because some gays are promiscuous, no gays can possibly be fit to marry.
Fine. Argue that point. “I don’t buy it” isn’t one. Then, having argued it, propose another explanation that’s reasonably consistent with real history.
I kind of thought that was the purpose of this thread, to explore the ramifications of same sex marriage.
I was vague about the Gay Pride Week, because the behavior was so completely reprehensible.
Here’s a link to the event.
http://www.zombietime.com/folsom_sf_2007_part_1/
I’ll take your word that people in the gay community are opposed to what went on.
Hint: I had addressed children. In fact that’s important to me– and you’ll have to explain to me how more infidelity in marriage is a good thing.
If it is difficult for heterosexual couples to remain faithful, and they have monogamy as a goal, what benefit is there to include a new type of marriage where the couples don’t even have monogamy as a goal?
That’s assuming monogamy is good for children.
How does not wanting to emulate Europe makes me ignorant? Been there, like it here.
This is an area where we might agree. University of Chicago National Opinion Poll lists the figures as 25% of males and 17% of females. Even if the figure is higher, I’m not sure how instituting a new type of marriage where the percentage of unfaithful spouses will increase is a good thing though.
Ouch! I’m still going to leave the argument to the lawyers, for now.
You made the claim. I doubt your assumption. Please give some facts to back it up.
Are ‘open relationships’, which include multiple partners the norm in long-term committed gay relationships as is claimed by Gay.com?
Scandinavian countries approved same-sex marriage about 10 years ago. Since legalization, the out-of-wedlock birthrates and the divorce rates have risen sharply. In Sweden, the divorce rate among gay men is 50 percent higher than the heterosexual divorce rate. For lesbian women, the divorce rate is 170 percent higher. The effect of these divorces is significant. Not sure that’s a benefit to children.
One of the problem with these types of discussions is the time lag. I may have missed some posts.
Charlie in Colorado…
I’m trying to figure out just exactly what your position is here, other than that you’re apparently very much in favor of homosecual “marriage”…
Do you think that the State has any reason to have any say at all in the choice of people to marry?
Brian, frankly, had you quoted the previous sentence as well, you’d have seen them.
Brian, do try to recall that gay people, like all people, have varying opinions. Try (back to logic class) some substitution: we look at some pictures of the more radical things that happen at Mardi Gras, and some of them can be pretty radical. Do some straight people find those things offensive? You say they do. Now, I know perfectly well they do, but play along here: I look at just pictures of Mardi Gras and say “look at these pictures. I don’t see any signs straight people find these offensive.”
You’ve got the population in San Francisco, which was noted for wildness when gays were in the closet; you have the fact that gays moved to San Francisco because it was a place where gays could be “out” with relative safety, giving a subset population of people who wanted to be more openly homosexual; you look at the Pride Parade, which is all about being out, outrageous, and “in your face” in reaction to “the closet”; you then use photographs, which are naturally selected to be interesting; and you look at zombietime, which I think could fairly be said to have a point of view, and based on the most offensive pictures, selected from a conservative site trying to show how vile Pride Parade is, selected from photographs which are naturally chosen to be more striking, of a political event intended to be striking and even offensive, from a population that self-selected for being outrageous, in Sodom-on-the-Bay, and from that you’re inferring that among the 10 to 30 million gay people in the US no significant percentage finds them offensive?
Now, let’s go back to the same-sex marriage thing. Try, at least for purposes of hypothesis, to recall that homosexuals are people like other people: they have jobs, they have homes, they watch TV. The point of the “equal protection” argument isn’t some deep legal sophistry, its just the moral and Constitutional principle that people ought to be treated equally under the law. We started off with our host’s idea that “marriage” could be simulated with contractual agreements; there are a couple of issues with that, the first being that some of the properties of marriage can’t be established contractually in the US, the second being that even if you do, it costs thousands of dollars in legal fees to do it, versus $20 for a marriage license. So I think this establishes that there is a real impediment to same-sex couples getting that equal treatment.
You suggest that there is some reason for society to decide that traditional marriage is important enough that it should supersede the notion of equal protection under the law. I’ll grant you, as a hypothesis, the possibility; I’m just going to point out that you’re going to have a pretty high bar to reach, legally or morally. I’m old enough to remember when black people couldn’t marry white people in many states, and the argument for preserving that was tradition.
You wonder about the wisdom of introducing a “new kind” of marriage, but then I think civil unions are the “new kind”; I just want same-sex couples to be able, at least under the law, to contract the same old kind of marriage.
Having been married, I don’t see any particular reason why gay people ought to get off scot-free: let them face the music along with the rest of us.
Now let me just say again, that doesn’t mean I think that civil marriage ought necessarily be recognized as a religious marriage, any more than I think the government out to try to force the Church to recognize under Canon law a marriage not performed by a priest under Church doctrine; I don’t think people ought to be liable for refusing to rent halls or take pictures for a same-sex marriage if they disapprove, and I think the people who brought those suits are, in the technical parlance, rectums; and if you’re freaked out by same-sex couples, I think you should definitely not invite them over to dinner.
You’re also suggesting that same-sex marriage is somehow causing opposite-sex marriage to break down in Sweden — but beyond the little problem that correlation doesn’t allow you to infer causation, there are the associated issues that Sweden doesn’t actually have same-sex marriage (it has a civil union law) and the fact that marriage was breaking down in Sweden and Denmark before 1989. Nor are you making any attempt to distinguish between the effects of Swedish civil unions and the whole assortment of other things, like the Swedes’ social welfare system, that make marriage less attractive. There are pretty good arguments that marriage is breaking down pretty rapidly in the US in places where social-welfare laws made marriage less attractive, and we don’t have same-sex marriage.
Honestly, are you sure that the underlying issue isn’t just that you think gay people are icky?
Having been married, I’m not sure I’m even in favor of heterosexual “marriage”, but that’s a personal thing.
I think my basic position is really covered by the equal-protection argument: I don’t see why one group of people should be excluded from legal protections and privileges that are open to another group.
There’s still a law on the books in Colorado (or was, last I looked) that made it illegal for me to buy alcohol, because I’m a Choctaw Indian. Oh, it’s no longer enforced, and a charge under that law would be laughed out of court, but it’s there and it certainly was once enforced. Similar laws let the Federal Government make my ancestors walk from Georgia and Mississippi to Oklahoma; I attended graduate school at Duke, where most all old restaurants had take-out windows and old buildings had twice as many bathrooms as they might otherwise have had.
I am, I think it’s fair to say, very suspicious of arguments that “equal protection” ought to be superseded by tradition.
Any say at all? Yeah. I don’t think it ought to be legal to marry someone who is already dead. More seriously, I don’t think it ought to be legal to marry before you’re 18, or if you are mentally incapacitated and unable to understand the contract, and I’d listen seriously to proposal for a “three strikes and you’re out” rule — no fourth marriages after a third divorce.
Well, probably not, I’m just being cynical; I’m old enough that I’ve got friends on their fourth marriages and the deja vu gets to me sometimes.
>>Any say at all? Yeah. I don’t think it ought to be legal to marry someone who is already dead. More seriously, I don’t think it ought to be legal to marry before you’re 18, or if you are mentally incapacitated and unable to understand the contract, and I’d listen seriously to proposal for a “three strikes and you’re out” rule — no fourth marriages after a third divorce.>>
How about if we just took the State out completely? Made marriage strictly an arrangement between two people, and allowed them to function according to whatever religious beliefs they may or may not have, and not have the State involved in any way? Would you find that acceptable?
And just out of curiosity…with your friends on their fourth marriage - why do they keep getting married? do they have children? What’s the point?
More about the children…
http://www.365gay.com/Newscon08/07/070108ad.htm
Y’all are doing just what I’d hoped would happen: talking about the issue, with some heat, but no personal animosity. This should be the debate society is having.
Incidentally, I spoke with DQ at lunch, and he still professed himself confused by my final point about the Constitutional problem. We finally figured out that I was writing about the Constitutional aspects in a pure world, and he was thinking about them in the world as it is: and the world as it is has the government routinely pushing around individuals to make them respect the rights of other individuals.
It used to be that just the feds had to respect Constitutional rights; then the states had to respect Constitutional rights; and now we all have to respect constitutional rights — with the greatest respect going to those who yell the loudest.
DQ and I both believe that, as long as it’s not a criminal activity, people ought to be allowed to do what they want. If they own property, they can rent to whomever they wish. If they own a store, they can sell to whomever they wish. It’s a libertarian thing.
Under that libertarian view, individual florists and photographers and reception hall owners could say yes or no to whatever couples present themselves and then take the market hit. However, since the 1950s, you can’t do that in America.
And that’s why, even though I’m theoretically correct about a Constitutional clash between religious freedom and civil gay marriage, as a practical matter that battle was resolved decades ago against individual freedoms.
>>I think my basic position is really covered by the equal-protection argument: I don’t see why one group of people should be excluded from legal protections and privileges that are open to another group.>>
But they’re not excluded. They can marry - just not to each other. How about the rights of pedophiles? How about statutory rape? How about polygamy? What about marriage within a family? Aren’t you placing limits in each case upon one specific group ? If sex in general is allowed, why is it prohibited in others? What right has the State to limit marriage or sexual activity at all?
Yeah, pretty much, but what about, eg, Brian? He seems to be arguing that the institution of marriage would be weakened and demeaned by not being established in the traditional form by the state.
I think the best solution is something much like that: have a civil partnership that can be established contractually with the same properties as a “marriage”, but that can be established between any two people of legal majority and competence. (We can leave the question of n>2 for another time.) Then have any religious rituals you like.
Damned if I know. But then I don’t have the nerve to get married a second time.
And here I think you’re getting to a really important point. The notion of “equal protection” has been dramatically weakened over the years in the name of compensating for past failures in equal protection, resulting in a situation in which, just as before, some pigs are more equal than others. My CV moves to the head of the line in academic settings if the search committee knows I’m a Choctaw; it moves back if they look at me as a straight male; it moves up again if they think I’m gay. All in the name of some social value that supersedes the idea of equal protection.
But that appears to be exactly the argument against same-sex marriage. It seems to me that it’s another step down that slope; it happens this time we’re trying to privilege something “traditional”, but the effect is the same.
Honestly, suek, doesn’t that strike you as about the silliest argument ever? Insert “blacks and whites” into it and re-read it: “black people and white people aren’t excluded — they can marry. Just not each other.”
Read back: I said “people of legal majority.” A child can’t consent in an informed way.
It can’t be statutory rape in a marriage, can it? Certainly we allow marriages in some states that would be statutory rape if there were sex without the license. (We also end up with weird edge cases: you can marry legally in Georgia if the male is 19 and the female is 17; however, under Federal law, the male then commits a felony if, over the Internet, the male tells the female that he’s hurrying home so they can start a family. Talking about sex or arranging to meet for sex with an underage person is a Federal felony whether you’re married or not.)
No thanks, I have enough trouble. But let’s save n>2 for another argument, how about? If we can answer the question for n=2, we might find the more general case will fall right out.
Is there another kind? If you mean “what about marriage between two people who are closely related?”, I think it’s a bad idea for any number of reasons. But your notion, which I’m agreeing with, is to simply make it a kind of partnership agreement; you’re now adding in something else — the assumption of sex or procreation, I assume. Would a celibate “marriage” within a family be okay? If not, why not? Is there something wrong, per se, with my young female cousin living with me? How about my father’s unrelated live-in housekeeper?
Sure, and I’m not claiming there can be no reason to do so: I’m in favor of not allowing convicted felons to vote or own weapons. In that case, there seems to be a clear argument that “equal protection” might well be superseded by other concerns.
What I am saying is that every one of the reasons I’m offered for not allowing same-sex couples to “marry” seem to apply pretty much equally well for not allowing opposite-sex couples to marry. Some gays are promiscuous, or have open marriages? So are some straights. Some gays do outrageous and offensive things in public? So do some straights. Gays are prone to divorce? Straights aren’t exactly known for absolute permanence either. Gay partners don’t provide good opposite-sex role models? Neither do single parent families. Gay people might adopt, but not be perfect parents? Do you imagine that straight couples who adopt always are?
I end up with the same question I had for Brian, above: how much of this comes down to “gays are ooky”? To the extent that it does, how is it that “gays revolt me” feeling different from my great grandfather — born in 1861 in Georgia and named after Jefferson Davis — feeling that black people are revolting?
I dunno: why? Give me some specifics. For example, I don’t think sex between an adult and a child — a person sufficiently young to be unable to consent in an informed way — should be allowed, nor when one partner doesn’t consent, nor when one partner is is for whatever reason unable to consent. Concave or convex. On the other hand, convex-convex or concave-concave sex, with competent consent, doesn’t strike me as the government’s business; our laws about such things are religiously based, rather a historical accident, and in any case come from a religious tradition I don’t share.
Given the aspect of competent mutual consent, without intruding on others, not a whole lot I can see.
Now, let me ask some.
First question: can you propose a reason for restricting same-sex marriage that neither applies to opposite-sex marriage nor is based on the idea that sex between people with the same genitals is inherently worse than between people of complementary genitals? Or if not, can you propose a reason for that idea that isn’t inherently based on the particular Abrahamic religious tradition?
Second question: can you propose a traditional argument for restricting same-sex marriage that can’t be re-written as an argument against allowing people of different races to marry that my great grandfather would find convincing?
Third question: let’s assume two males form a partnership and live together. If they don’t tell you about their sex life, how would you know? If you (and others) don’t know, how can they harm you?
Charlie,
I don’t think you can skip ahead on the polygamy argument, since can’t two men and a woman claim the same right under the equal protection clause?
And if you allow an exception, which I would make about same-sex marriage, what test would be sufficient for one and not the other?
One of my concerns is the slippery slope. While, if I understand your position, you want a contractural relationship that confers the same benefits as marriage, others in the gay ‘community’ won’t settle for that– and will only be happy when catholic priests are forced to perform weddings while offering communion to the couple at the same time.
Well, if you think I can’t, I’d suggest you learn to live with disappointment. When you can show me a state in which a polygamous heterosexual marriage is legal, we can talk about polygamous homosexual marriage.
As I say, if we can figure out the n=2 case, we may be able to handle n>2 by induction.
Mistaken assumption: I’m straight as a stick. Why the scare quotes, just by the way?
Well, since I explicitly say I’m not for that, I’d suggest you find someone who is for that and argue with him.
Actually, I’ve got another hypothetical for you all. Let’s say we change the law so that with no other change, including no change in the restriction to opposite-sex couples, we replace the word “marriage” with “domestic partnership”? Would that be acceptable?
>>Let’s say we change the law so that with no other change, including no change in the restriction to opposite-sex couples, we replace the word “marriage” with “domestic partnership”? Would that be acceptable?>>
Why? Why not just get the State out of the marriage business entirely?
>>can you propose a reason for restricting same-sex marriage that neither applies to opposite-sex marriage nor is based on the idea that sex between people with the same genitals is inherently worse than between people of complementary genitals?>>
Yes. The concept of marriage is primarily for the benefit of raising children in a stable environment. Psychologically, it’s been shown that it is more beneficial for children to have a male and a female model during their formative years. (I recognize that one parent or two parents of the same sex may be preferable to having no parent(s).) Therefore if the State has an axe to grind in having citizens raised in the most beneficial conditions, it should encourage the conditions which make stable marriages. Perhaps that raises the question of whether marriage should be reserved for those who intend to have children. Or maybe one should take out a license to have children instead of just getting married.
Up until about 40 years ago, it was assumed that marriage would be shortly followed by children. Childless marriages as the norm is a fairly recent development. Yes, I know that not all marriages produced children, but most used to. So it isn’t the marital condition that has changed - it’s the childlessness that has changed.
And yes - re race vs homosexuality. Skin color does not affect sex. Blacks, whites and reds come in two sexes. Two sexes means that intercourse is natural, and children are likely to result. Intercourse between two males is unnatural. Not impossible, just unnatural. Between two females, it is impossible. Children are not possible as the result of any kind of interaction between two members of the same sex, therefore it seems rather bizarre to consider it a marriage.
Well, I’m kind of in favor of that myself, but I answered your hypotheticals, why not answer mine?
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Okay, but that avoids my question: what distinguishes same-sex marriages from opposite-sex marriages? We know that opposite-sex marriages are not all that stable, on average; we also know that the state has no obvious way of deciding whether a particular opposite-sex marriage will be stable. We also know that there are stable same-sex relationships of extended duration, even in the face of all the legal impediments and social stigmata, which suggests that in a world with same-sex marriage the likelihood of stable same-sex marriage can reasonably be supposed to be greater than it is now. So, it would seem that if stable marriage per se is the goal, legalizing same-sex marriage is desirable.
Maybe so: would that be acceptable? If so, what about childless couples who are already married? Or couples who intend to have children but are unable to?
Actually, there are a number of places where a marriage wasn’t considered binding until a child was born, including places in Europe. Would that work? How about in the case of adopted children?
True, but childlessness wasn’t considered a valid reason for divorce. I think it’d be really hard to make a successful argument that marriage is solely about children.
Sure happens a lot. Not just in humans, either. If bonobos do it, what makes it “unnatural” for humans? In any case, great-grandfather Jeff sure thought sex between blacks and whites, and particularly black men and white women, was “unnatural”.
You appear to have just defined lesbianism out of existence. You sure you mean to go there?
Okay, so let’s try another couple of hypotheticals: first: is it possible for a sterile male to contract to marry a female? second: if, in a childless married couple, one member of the couple has an accident rendering them permanently and irreversibly infertile, does that automatically end the marriage?
Oh, I could have answered your question more directly, too, so let me come back with that afterthought:
The reason I raise that as a hypothetical is that it’s been argued, both above and elsewhere, that gays ought to be willing to accept something that has exactly the same properties as “marriage” but isn’t called that. I’m fine with that, but if it’s sauce for the ganders, it seems it should be sauce for the geese. Is “marriage” the magic word? If so, what about people who call it”紧密结合”?
>>what distinguishes same-sex marriages from opposite-sex marriages?>>
The possibility of natural children.
>>first: is it possible for a sterile male to contract to marry a female?>>
Legally, of course. I believe that inability to have intercourse (to consummate the marriage) is a valid reason to nullify a marriage, but inability to conceive due to sterility rather than impotence is not.
You don’t care to bring in the religious aspects, I assume?
>>second: if, in a childless married couple, one member of the couple has an accident rendering them permanently and irreversibly infertile, does that automatically end the marriage?>>
Again, legally, no. It could be grounds for divorce, but not for nullification of the marriage.
If your point is that ability to have children is not legally necessary to have a legal marriage, I agree. But nevertheless, this is historically a recent development. Is it a reason to change the laws? Maybe…but it seems to me that there is just as much reason for the State to simply step away from marriage licenses etc entirely as there is to expand who can _get_ that license.
And yes, marriage _is_ the “magic” word. It _means_ a relationship between a man and a woman. It has and does in different places mean more than one woman, but essentially, it is a relationship between two sexes. Single sex relationships may exist, but they are not “marriage”.
>>We know that opposite-sex marriages are not all that stable, on average; >>
I’m not sure we _do_ know that. It’s true that statistics say that xx% of marriages end in divorce, but that also includes a number made up of multiple marriers (just made that word up!). In other words, some people change the numbers by marrying multiple times, each of which is included in the total number. It’s the individuals who are unstable, not the condition of marriage itself.
>>we also know that the state has no obvious way of deciding whether a particular opposite-sex marriage will be stable. >>
True. It might be beneficial to require a waiting time, but other than that, it’s ultimately a personal commitment which the State is unwilling to enforce.
>>We also know that there are stable same-sex relationships of extended duration, even in the face of all the legal impediments and social stigmata, which suggests that in a world with same-sex marriage the likelihood of stable same-sex marriage can reasonably be supposed to be greater than it is now.>>
Are these some statistics you could point me to? I haven’t seen anything that would indicate that the numbers are significant enough to make that conclusion. The interesting thing I’ve seen is an indication that the majority of same sex “marriages” that have occurred since the supreme court decision in California has been between females
I agree to give your religious aspects exactly as much credence as you give mine. I’m a Buddhist, and Buddhism sees marriage as a civil matter, not a religious sacrament. So if the religious aspects control, we’ve got it settled: it should simply be a civil matter.
Didn’t think that’d work, actually, but it was worth a try.
Really? Which? Childless marriages or binding marriages that are childless? Citations?
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So, either we’re agreeing completely that “domestic partnerships” ought to be a civil matter, perhaps not called marriage, independent of the religious issues; or you’re arguing that there ought to be no mechanism whatsoever for two people contractually to agree formally to share property and be held legally as next of kin. I’m not sure which, though.
You might want to check your history on that, actually. Apparently (according to Wikipedia admittedly, I haven’t looked for primary sources) a relationship called “marriage” — or the equivalent word — between same-sex couples was recognized, eg, in India, Egypt, and Rome. Unless you mean “whatever the word, those aren’t ‘marriage’”, in which case you’re just begging the question.
Well, I just made an existence assertion, so examples are sufficient. Let’s see: Gertrude Stein and Alice B Toklas, my friends George and David, and George Takei and his partner occur offhand. Since for most of the last, oh, 1500 years, such a relationship in Europe could have gotten you killed, I’d be real suspicious either of any statistics we found, or of sample bias.
You may be right about more female-female extended relationships; I don’t know of statistics either way. Anecdotally, I know lots more committed male couples, but then I know more gay males than females by far.
>>So, either we’re agreeing completely that “domestic partnerships” ought to be a civil matter, perhaps not called marriage, independent of the religious issues;>>
Maybe. I’d rather see this than see the government in it at all.
>> or you’re arguing that there ought to be no mechanism whatsoever for two people contractually to agree formally to share property and be held legally as next of kin. >>
This would develop…regardless of whether you called it anything. Law services would offer a plethora of boilerplate contracts to serve every requirement. Some people would disdain the boilerplate and hire expensive lawyers to tailor the contract to their specific needs.
>>I’m not sure which, though.>>
The latter.
>>I’m a Buddhist, and Buddhism sees marriage as a civil matter>>
That’s interesting - why? so, assuming that there was no civil requirement, there would be no marriage? Children belong solely to the mother? If not, how is responsibility determined?
To be honest, you could tell me anything about Buddism…I’d never be the wiser.
Why which, Sue? I’m a Buddhist because it’s, oddly, the most rational religion (or whatever it is) I ever found, and it seemed to meet my needs when I became dissatisfied with Christianity 40-odd years ago. I’ve got a running series on my blog Explorations explaining buddhism that’s been well-received; you could have a look at it if you’re interested. Look at the “Skillful Means” category.
If you mean “why does Buddhism see marriage as a civil matter?”, well, why does Christianity see marriage as a religious matter? Buddhism got started in a place, and at a time, when sexual morés and marriage customs were very different from ours; Hindu gods do things that would make a mink blush. Buddhism spread through a big area in which marriage customs varied wildly; it doesn’t really believe in the idea of a “soul” in the sense we understand it in the west; its ethical teachings have more to do with how to avoid unneeded pain than with some overarching code. My guess is that it doesn’t consider “marriage” as a religious issue because it never occurred to anyone that it should.
Just btw, I am getting a thoroughly unpleasant headache, so I may be away from the computer this evening. If I don’t reply for a while, it’s not that I don’t love you all any more.
>>why does Christianity see marriage as a religious matter?>>
Probably because Judaism did. Judaism probably did because of a need to achieve social order which is frequently a problem in tribal situations, where females are considered property of a sort, and the future of the tribe. The inclinations of males are usually troublesome unless there is an accepted behavioral expectation.
>>Buddhism got started in a place, and at a time, when sexual morés and marriage customs were very different from ours; Hindu gods do things that would make a mink blush.>>
So…whose responsibility are the children? Hindu gods don’t have children in spite of making the mink blush???