Boys will be boys *UPDATED*

Boys are born equipped with this neat little toy.  Amongst its many enjoyable attributes, you can write your name in the snow with it.  There are lots of other things you can do with it.  Long hikes without pit stops?  No problem.  Use a tree or, if you’re adventurous, see if you can fill the Grand Canyon.  Long drive without pit stops?  No problem.  That’s what empty soda bottles are for.  Object that offends you?  Well, if you’re adrenalized, testosteronized, and hanging around with the boys, that might not be a problem either, ’cause you can whip out your toy and make a statement (warning:  slightly graphic and definitely NSFW):

I certainly don’t approve of what those guys did.  It’s vulgar, and I’m opposed to vulgarity on principle.  It’s stupid, both at a micro level and, as the recent headlines show, at a macro level.  It’s a typical example of group think.  I routinely tell my children to be very careful when they’re with a group, because there’s something about a group mentality that causes massive IQ loss.

The one thing I’m not is outraged.  This is not systemic abuse of the type that surfaced in Abu Ghraib.  Nor does it cross the line from stupid and vulgar into terribly abusive.  Terribly abusive would have been a video of these men doing the same thing to living prisoners.  Having Al Qaeda types — the ones who like to slice of men’s cool toy and stuff it in the victim’s mouth, or who videotape themselves beheading people, or who torture children to death, or who gang rape women, or who blow up school buses, etc. — having these types express outrage over this alleged “barbarity” only serves to highlight just how innocuous what these young men did really was.  Crude?  Yeah, sure.  But also innocuous.

I’m also not alone in my lack of outrage.  Even liberal Washington Post readers are unimpressed.  As of this writing, 82% of them think “It’s not surprising — things like this happen in war,” while only 11% find it an “unacceptable desecration” and 7% an “embarrassment.” Americans understand that boys will be boys, they understand that boys will always have their toys, and they understand that, under actual combat conditions, men make foolish decisions that nevertheless do not qualify as war-time atrocities.

UPDATE:  In Comment 2, DQ, who my best friend and someone I admire greatly, disagreed with my rather cavalier dismissal of the Marines’ conduct.  He stated “I am outraged,” and then explained why.  I countered by explaining why I did not consider what happened an outrage.  Later, it struck me what the difference was in our approach to this video.

As I mentioned in my Michelle Obama post, grammar matters.  When it comes to the response to peeing Marines, one has to remember that the word “outrage” functions as both a noun and a verb.

DQ is totally within his rights to feel outrage.  The verb is his own response to a crude, vulgar, and stupid incident.  It marks him as a man with higher, more refined feelings.

I, however, was not really talking about my own feelings when I posted about the Marines.  I was talking about the noun, rather than the verb.  In the theater of war, and especially in the theater of war propaganda, it is a mistake to call what happened “AN OUTRAGE.”  That elevates the Marines’ conduct to an atrocity or a war crime in terms of their risk of court martial and in terms of the animus America’s enemies direct against her.

When the US government and the Pentagon, instead of issuing a dry “their behavior was inappropriate and they will be dealt with,” starts apologizing as if the video was the crime of the century, that allows the enemy to justify ever greater efforts against American troops.  “They peed on our dead.  We’re going to torture them, behead them, blow up their women and children, etc.”

My post was about proportionate response.  I therefore made in my own mind a distinction between being outraged and categorizing something as “an outrage.”  This distinction is an important factor in figuring out where bad behaviors (and there will always be bad behaviors) belong on the scale of military scandals.

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Comments

  1. Tonestaple says

    It’s disgusting the way the press is trying to pump this story up.  As a contrast, there have been four serious vandalism attempts at synagogues in New Jersey recently, the last one being considered attemtped murder because the firebomb was apparently thrown at the building and at the rabbi, but has that made any major media?  Don’t be silly.

  2. says

    Well, sorry, but I am outraged.  Not so much because it dishonors the dead (although it does) but because it dishonors the uniform those men are wearing.  I expect better from our military men and women and “boys will be boys” is a weak, weak response.  Shameful. 

  3. says

    It’s very rare for me to disagree with Don Quixote, but I do in this case.  I don’t think what these guys did was right and I think they should be punished.  However, I am refusing to be outraged because the MSM and the anti-war crowd are trying to make this a war crime.  It’s not.  It’s a war stupidity.  I look down on and criticize stupidity.  I recognize that it demeans an honorable institution.  But it still falls into the “even honorable institutions have dumb people,” and those people’s stupidity is not an institutional outrage that requires the US government to fall all over itself apologizing to people who are not our friends (which is what it’s doing).

  4. suek says

    >>there’s something about a group mentality that causes massive IQ loss.>>

    When I was a Cub Scout den mother, my den was comprised of 8 and 9 year olds. I had to take my 6 year old along with me to meetings because we lived on the economy and the Germans didn’t have a babysitter mindset. (they leave the children home alone. In fact, not only home alone, but locked in their bedrooms.) My 6 year old would sit a bit apart from the others and work on the same projects they did. I didn’t expect him to accomplish stuff at the same level they did – but he did. It wasn’t that the projects were difficult, or that my 6 year old was super bright (although of _course_ he _was_!) – it was just that when the 8 and 9 year olds got together in a group, their accomplishment level dropped by a couple of years. So in terms of project success rates, they were all on the same level. That included my own 8 and 9 year olds in the same group. It was odd. I learned not to give them projects that I thought they’d be able to do, but to make sure they were pretty simple.

    By the way…I don’t see any “streams”…I’m not certain that photo isn’t a bit of a fake. I wouldn’t say it _was_, but I wouldn’t say it wasn’t either.

  5. MacG says

    Yeah in terms of abuse this ranks right up there with dragging them behind a jeep for all to see…oh wait that was OUR dead. 
    Yes they should not have done it much less FILMED it!  Book is right there can be a huge loss of IQ when there are groups involved.  Kind of like watching blackbirds in flight, things shift so quickly.  This is why it is so important to have an over arching standard to go by because human standards are so frangible or malleable in the heat of the moment. 
    “Amongst its many enjoyable attributes, you can write your name in the snow with it.”  I saw a comedy bit about this where it was announced to a group indoors that one of theirs was writing his name in the snow.  Non-plused as any guy can do that, one in the group asked “Cursive or printing?” “Printing!” at which they all ran out to see.  
    I was going to take umbrage about the use of the word toy here as it reduces the serious business that it represents.  It’s toy mentality that encourages all sorts of lewdness, promiscuity and other inappropriate behavior but I did not want to go a rant as I have a dead line due so I’ll just put it on the table (as it were) for y’all to chime in.

  6. says

    If you aren’t part of their chain of command, it’s not your business to deal with them. Thus what you feel about it is pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. I know civilians think their opinion should count because universal voting, but in the military, the only person’s opinion that matters is the chain of command’s. If you aren’t in their chain of command, your view does not matter, because you can’t do anything about it even if you wanted to.

     

  7. says

    The media is of course the enemy. And the enemy is the exception. They get a say in everything anyone does on your side.

     But speaking from a more neutral stand point, if you don’t have any productive to say about fixing the problem, take your outrage and put it back in the dark where it belongs. Basically.

     

  8. Caped Crusader says

    Thank God these pansies were few in number or too afraid to speak out in 1944-1945, for surely they would have insisted on the firing of Gen. George S. Patton for having his picture taken fulfilling his promise to be the first general to piss in the Rhine River. One of my late Dad’s prized possessions. I am sure that probably offended Hitler. And by slowing the advance, millions more Jews would have become ashes, wallets, or lampshades. It all boils down to whether you want to be a winner or a loser(liberal).
     
    Pictures of Patton keeping his promise.

    “Another General would take a month. I’ll piss in the Rhine in a Week.”


    “I drove to the Rhine River and went across on the pontoon bridge. I stopped in the middle to take a piss and then picked up some dirt on the far side in emulation of William the Conqueror.”


    “Dear SHAEF, I have just pissed into the Rhine River. For God’s sake, send some gasoline.”

    “On receiving instructions to bypass city of Trier because it would take four divisions to capture: “Have conquered city of Trier with two divisions. Do you want me to give it back?”


    And for the much maligned Texas Aggie:
    “Give me an army of West Point graduates, and I’ll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies and I’ll win a war.”

    – General George S. Patton


    Click on the picture for larger view.

     
     
     
    To get enlarged image:
    http://www.kilroywashere.org/005-Pages/05-0Miscellany.html

  9. jj says

    It’s less rare for me to disagree with DQ, and on this occasion:  get stuffed, DQ.
     
    You just did a long post about American lack of follow-through.  This is a piece of it.  Every civilization that has ever existed has ultimately failed because it wouldn’t get down and dirty with the barbarians.  Without exception, they have gone down the road of the “civilized,” and failed.  It’s an entirely predictable path.  First, the civilization stops demanding that every male do some time in the military.  This means the people stop being directly involved and leave their own defense to an ever-decreasing bunch of volunteers.  This removes the people a little further from the gritty realities of keeping all the plates balanced and spinning: and now they not only have no personal experience of how to do it, they wonder why it’s expensive.  Then as the number of volunteers drops, they import volunteers, offering them inducements along the lines of: “Mexicans, come here, spend two years in the military, and there’ll be a path to citizenship as a reward for being a swell guy and helping to defend our fat asses.”  So after a while you have an army of mercenaries from Gaul, or from Hesse, and none of your citizens or leaders know the first thing about what it takes.
     
    And the barbarians just get stronger.  Because they know you’re going to fight according to “civilized” rules, while they, on the other hand, are bound by nothing.  They know that you will think you’re “above” all that – without knowing your ass from your elbow, really – and they can do whatever they feel like with impunity.  They have a long history, our little Muslim friends, of barbarous behavior.  Nowadays they behead people on television, they routinely torture, they cheerfully brutalize, etc., etc.  And we’re so holy – we refuse to “stoop to that level.”  (I do so love the brainless resonance of that phrase!)  Because we’re “better than that.”  (Another good one.)
     
    You know what?  We’re not – nor should we be.  These torturing, murdering, mutilating bastards should know damn well, and they should know it going in, that we’re going to repay them in kind, fight exactly the kind of war they started, and do whatever we can, up to and including smearing their corpses with bacon fat, to f*** them up even in the afterlife after killing them here.  There is a price for the crap you routinely pull and expect to get away with, Ali.  This isn’t canasta we’re playing here, it’s serious, you started it, and we’re going to finish it.  When you capture an American soldier and you spend a few days playing with him before you kill him – that shit counts, Abdul, it isn’t free.  You don’t get a pass, and we’re going to exact a price for it, because that’s all you understand.  We’re going to be a presence in your nightmares, and we’re going to remember that when the civilizations still had some blood flowing in their veins and tamed the world they did so being mindful to a maxim: “punish one, teach many.”  Not: “kiss the one’s ass, and ask him how he likes his coffee.”
     
    This civilization ought not to go the way of the others before it – but it will.  The opportunity to learn from history will be ignored, as such opportunities always are.  We don’t want to get down and gritty with those arrayed against us, pay them in kind and make them afraid to fight us, so we’ll lose.  We’ll lose because they have no down-side, we haven’t even made them worry about being captured by us. Being captured by us means a well-fed vacation, with a nice new book of shit as a present from us, and a quiet, warm, and dry place to hoist their asses into the air and hold a community chant five or six times a day.  They know our soldiers can’t even give them a dirty look, let alone smack them around a little, for being the general offal that they are.  They have no reason to fear us, so they don’t.  And won’t.  And we will lose.     
     
    If it was up to me, I’d give those kids a medal.  I’d give it to them for having the self-restraint to wait until these bastards were dead before they did it.  I might have pried their living mouths open and said, “here you go, Mo,” and fired away before they’d drawn their last breaths.  Because that’s what they’ve earned.  That’s what they deserve.  And I’m bright enough to know that restraint buys you nothing. 
     
    And I’d let the female guards offend their sensibilities all day every day at Abu Ghraib.  I am finished with giving a shit about their sensibilities.  I can’t think of anything that ranks lower in my personal hierarchy of things to worry about than Islamic sensibilities – sorry.  What happened at Abu Ghraib didn’t rise to the level of a fraternity hazing – but we’re going to call it “torture?”  We have no more chance than Rome did – and for the same reason: we did it to ourselves.  And you could see it coming.  Hell, George Patton was in nothing but trouble sixty years ago for fighting the war like it was a goddam war, not brunch at Lorraine Murphy.  So we’re on the Roman road, and the ultimate conclusion will be the same.  Civilizations come and go – the barbarians are forever. 
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

  10. 11B40 says

    Greetings:

    I have been left with a great deal of mental, moral, psychological, socio-political confusion as a result of this incident and have concluded that the time has come to confess my own atrocity. 

    Back during my all-expense-paid tour of sunny Southeast Asia, I spent an all-nighter in the midst of a large group of people with whom I was unable to establish an effective multicultural relationship primarily due to their shooting at me and mine thus reducing my communication alternative to the colloquial “same-same”. But that’s really just the background or the context or the remaining memory.  The actual atrocity was still to arrive.

    As stated above, this was an all-nighter and in spite of the absence of more appropriate beverages, I eventually found it necessary to relieve myself in a urinary way. Due to my most excellent infantry training and experience, assuming either the proverbial standing position (the one my feminist sisters so dearly love) or even a sitting/squatting position seemed to be much out of the question. (I attempted to contact the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to see if they had any programs for airborne lead pollution but apparently, what with the time zones difference or their not having yet been invented, I also failed communicationally in that regard.)

    Now, and this is the crux of my atrocity, the only idea that I could come up with was to, from a very standard and effective prone position, hike up my hips an inch or two, let my dangling parts dangle a bit and urinate all over my Uncle Sam’s otherwise nonpristine uniform in an act of totally unjustified desecration. (And, just as James Joyce wrote in his “Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man” {not that I was an artist as a young man} at first it was warm and then it got cold.) 

    For many decades now, this despicable action, as momentary and nonrepeated as it was, has cast its pallor over my otherwise undistinguished military career and service.  Now, our media which so admires and supports our warfighters, and our Obama administration’s minions so willing to share their high moral dudgeon (which by this time has to have been reduced to less than a widow’s mite), and our general and flag officers for whom no star is too far or too many, have shown me the light which I have so long refused to see at the end of the tunnel. 

    This ersatz brouhaha encapsulates where America is in these troubled times.  Lost, that would be.

  11. says

    JJ:  “Get stuffed?”  The minatory mom finger is wagging.  Feel free to disagree with people here — I love the vigorous exchanges that take place at this blog — but no playground insults, please.

    Also, regarding what DQ said, it struck, as I mentioned in my Michelle Obama post, me that grammar is once again important.  “Outrage” functions as both a noun and a verb. 

    DQ is totally within his rights to feel outrage.  The verb is his own response to a crude, vulgar, and stupid incident. 

    I was talking about the noun, though.  In the theater of war, and especially in the theater of war propaganda, it is a mistake to call what happened “AN OUTRAGE.”  That elevates the Marines’ conduct to an atrocity or war crime in terms of their risk of court martial and in terms of the animus America’s enemies direct against her. 

    When the US government and the Pentagon, instead of issuing a dry “it was inappropriate and they will be dealt with,” starts apologizing as if it was the crime of the century, that allows the enemy to justify ever greater efforts against American troops.  “They peed on our dead.  We’re going to torture them, behead them, blow up their women and children, etc.”

    It’s about proportion, I think, and recognizing that to be outraged is different from categorizing something as “an outrage” is an important factor in figuring out where behavior belongs on the scale of military scandals.

  12. says

    For those following this comment thread, I just updated the post, because I think the disagreement between DQ and me is important, not because we so rarely disagree, but because it highlights the different ways one can view this incident.  As is always the case when he and I disagree, it makes me think about the issue more deeply and come to a more thorough (and, possibly, defensible) understanding of my own position. 

    (Sometimes, too, I’m just wrong and I gracefully change my mind.)

  13. Caped Crusader says

    From a real American”:
    Allen West on the Marines Incident: ‘Shut Your Mouth, War Is Hell’
    Daniel Halper
    January 13, 2012 1:37 PM
     

    Rep. Allen West (R-Fla.), a former Army lieutenant colonel, sends THE WEEKLY STANDARD an email commenting on the Marines’ video, and has given us permission to publish it.
    “I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.
    “All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?
    “The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.
    “As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”

  14. jj says

    You can mince around it all you wish, but the barbarians will not be concerned about sweetly pointed grammar.  It’s good that it strikes you as important, but they don’t care.  They see us blithering over this and – again – shooting ourselves in the foot, and they don’t care about the niceties.  Maybe – if they’re feeling generous – they’ll take the time to give you a tombstone, and possibly – if they really have time to kill in the wake of burying us – they’ll carve upon it: “she wore her outrage well.”
     
    It is about proportion.  Absolutely.  Quite right.  And you could not possibly have failed to notice that we’re being tortured, beheaded, and blown up anyway – whether we approach them as ministering angels or aggravated avengers makes no difference.

  15. vanderleun says

    Well bookworm is certainly within bounds by not liking the ‘get stuffed’ remark but only because of the “my place my rules” rule. 

    And DQ is certainly welcome to a feeling of ‘outrage.’ since who among us these days can gainsay the “feelings, nothing more than feelings” of others?

    Except to say, in my case, such a feeling is both wrong and weak. JJ’s got it in this case when JJ notes:

    “Every civilization that has ever existed has ultimately failed because it wouldn’t get down and dirty with the barbarians.  Without exception, they have gone down the road of the “civilized,” and failed.” 

    Which h as, at the end of the day, the simple virtue of being right. 

  16. Oldflyer says

    There is certainly room for disagreement on this issue.  My wife thinks the behavior is not only outrageous, but also stupid.
     
    My reaction is a shrug.  I can see that the chain of command needs to say “tut tut.  This is not behavior that we condone, etc.  All corpses, including those of scumbag terrorists deserve respect…  On the other hand, we understand that when you are fighting for your life emotions understandably run high, and the survivors may over react…”   That is certainly as far as I would go.
     
    Hillary had to run out and show her behind (it isn’t attractive) on the news last night.  Panetta is racing to get ahead of her in the hand wringing derby.  Various pundits are all agog.  Which leaves us with the premise that killing is ok, urinating is bad.
     
    I have a headache.

  17. SADIE says

    Charles Martel

    Submit “pissing drones” to the suggestion box at your local military base asap. LOL.

    Lopping off heads by the barbarians – no problem no outrage, but urinating on them gets the’ talking heads’ in a snit – give me a break.     

         

  18. Michael Adams says

    OK.  Right.  No stream visible, and these guys have a prostate about a third the age of Martel’s, DQ’s, et a moi. There’s no sign of overspray, either, on very dry ground, and the boys usually aim their rifles better than their other weapons. So, crude, clumsy humor, perhaps, but no actual bodily fluids.(Nor beheadings, corpse burning and dragging through the streets, stoning of a girl who smiled at a passing soldier, no amputations and stuffing the excised tissue into the mouth of the stiull living victim. Proportion, anyone?)
     
    Grandsons here.  Gotta go!

  19. MacG says

    Finally looked the video.  Mike and SueK are onto something.  These guys are way too relaxed to be a moment of victory taunt as well.  It has the feeling of a staged “My dad/brother/uncle would SO get a kick out of this” home movie. “Would you guys stand over here and…”

  20. MacG says

    Looked again at the video on you tube.  At the beginning you see the shot being set up and the videographer says “Here he comes” and you can see the heads of the marines look to their right and then start their acting (4 guys urinating on command, really?  In front of a camera in hte open air?  I know guys hte get stage fright at a trough urinal and need to use a stall.).  Then at the end he says as the camera pans down “The whole thing..” and it cuts off.  This was staged for what purposes I do not know but it sounds like the videographer starts to explain what was going on when the ‘he’ of “Here he come” shows up.  Only they know for for sure but internationally it looks bad so our leaders have to denounce.

  21. Mike Devx says

    My eyes ain’t what they used to be, but I didn’t see any urine streams in that video.  Maybe better eyes than mine can clarify that yes, they did in fact piss on enemy corpses, deliberately on camera?

    Otherwise, it’s just very young men engaging in a crude joke.  Very young men – especially in a group – can practically be DEFINED by the phrase crude joke.

    And we’re talking SOLDIERS here as well.  The military is known for a tough attitude.  Soldiers aren’t exactly known for its extreme sensitivity, just like fashion designer guys aren’t exactly known for their ability to walk into a tough bar on a Friday night and wipe the floor with everyone inside.

    I’m MISSING something here.
     

  22. says

    If terrorists stopped raping children, women, and killing defenseless civilians, who aren’t even armed or supporting the US military efforts, they might get some respect. In so far as they refuse to do this, they have no right, the enemy propaganda arm called the US cable networks and tv media have no right, and Democrats have no right to complain.

    If people want to complain about stuff that ain’t their business, because they consider themselves a “neutral independent observer” about the US, terrorism, evil Leftist alliance members like the Democrat party, and Republicans, they can do so as much as they wish. So long as they live in reality and realize that their views don’t count for a whole heck load of anything. 

    From experience, what people want to do is to voice their opinion but also think some other entity is responsible for making it happen. This is an entitlement view, one based upon long term self destructiveness. It is especially true when they are talking about something that they heard only through the media. They’re media props, basically. They don’t have their own opinion. Their opinion is formed entirely as a result of enemy propaganda. They just think they have a viewpoint.

     

  23. says

    I have another thing to say. If this happens to be misinformation or simply a video that shows Marines acting like they are pissing on corpses, in order to play a prank on their superior or peer (Marines do this a lot you know), then all I have to say is that those of you here who are outraged or scared or whatever you want to call it, from listening to the media TELL you what was going on…

    Congratulations, you’ve joined the ranks of being a tool of enemy propaganda. How does that feel, does it feel better than the outrage? Maybe? No? Yes? 

  24. MacG says

    “liberal Washington Post readers are unimpressed.”   That’s because it was a multicultural group effort working towards the same goal and NOT pissing on each other as the left seems to think is the norm. 

  25. says

    Thanks for your comments.  I stand by mine.  Such actions disgrace the uniform.  I appreciate BW’s update, but I would point out, BW that you said in your original post, “The one thing I’m not is outraged.”  And I responded that I am outraged.  The grammar is parallel.  Anyway, we can agree to disagree.  I just thought a stronger response than”boys will be boys” was warranted.

  26. Charles Martel says

    One of the left’s most useful tools—and one it sues so adroitly—is misdirection. The left looks the other way while Muslims murder and torture women by the thousands each year, but shouts its outrage at some Marines pissing on the corpses of savages that deserved to die.
     
    While I hope I would stop short of pissing on a dead man, no matter how debased he was alive, I won’t second guess young men fighting an inhuman enemy far from home under the command of an affirmative-action coward. In the whole scheme of evil, soaking Taliban goons with a little American tribute ranks in my mind far below what Muslims do to one another routinely.  
     

  27. says

    As people have already noticed, it’s not conclusive what “those actions” even are. So people are not only voicing their own personal opinions, they’re doing so based upon prejudice, ignorance, and media grandstanding. Not the best criteria to have an opinion based upon to begin with. But then again, a lot of people base their opinions on just such low quality standards. That’s their choice to make.

     My view doesn’t change regardless of how this turns out. It will stay the same, irregardless of the media distortion and propaganda.

  28. bizcor says

    I have been reading all the posts here and agree primarily with “JJ” ” in as far as we “Americans” seem to be Hell bent on rising above it all instaed of getting down and dirty with the opposition. They behead people, and drag corpses through the streets. The left gets their knickers in a twist about the Marines but not the behaeding of Daniel Pearl et al. It is OK for an OWS idiot to deficate on a police car, to rape women, to abaondom children in their encampment, and to break the law by simply setting up the encampments in the first place. They do not own those parks we do. Most parks explain they are closed after dark. Law abiding citizens recognize and obey the simply rules but OWS doesn’t have to? The are breaking the law by just being there but there is no repercussion. These Marines will be excoriated and while I don’t condon what they did I see it as less an infraction than OWS. The enemy urinates on our people while they are alive they just don’t take videos and then post them on YouTube. 

    It would seem to me that the behaedings are what they consider to be vile so perhaps we should behead some of them. My frustration with our politically correct society is that if we were to fight fire with fire it could go a long way to solving the problem the Bible calls for an “eye for an eye”

    I have no quarrel with DQ by the way, I enjoy his posts and sometimes I may disagree sir with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.  

  29. says

    You only have one life. Better give it more consideration who or what you’re willing to give it to. Your first responsibility is to family, then self/friends, then associates/strangers. Those that only have one life to give, better think more than twice about offering up statements they aren’t willing to back up with life and limb. This country has been depleted, disgraced, and diminished by a simple common factor: people no longer feel their word is their bound and thus instead of following the way of honor, they instead follow the way of authority and base their decisions upon what the Leader says is right or wrong.

    The idea behind that phrase may be noble, but it’s something people say that they don’t really mean. And that simply removes any poignant facet to the idea to begin with.

     The people that were able to get the job done no matter how dirty it was, obeyed their oaths. The reason they obeyed their oaths was because they gave careful thought to what they could pay out in their promise. They didn’t promise anything they weren’t willing to do.

    If you say you “will” defend to the death the right of a stranger to say something, you’d better also say “and meanwhile I’ll leave my family, loved ones, and friends to fend for themselves”. You don’t have two lives. You ain’t going to be in two places at once. But people don’t really consider this aspect because they’re too busy copying what other people, like Dear Leader, keep telling them what to do and think. If society says this is wrong, then people say it is wrong. If the Leader says this is right, they say this is right. The idea that a man makes his own decisions and pays his own way in life, is not really all that popular. Yet people still want to see an America that is willing to do the “dirty work” themselves. Part of being able to do anything yourself is to own up to your own words. Another part of being a man is to come up with one’s own words, not copied renditions from someone else “quoted” for effect. Teleprompter in Chief might want to take note of that.

    That’s the primary problem I’ve always seen with people promising strangers on the internet that they would “defend anything” to the death over just for them.

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Hale

    “I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country.”

    Notice that unlike Obama or 99% of the people on the internet, this guy actually backed up his words with action. But that’s cause he died a long time ago, in a forgotten and past America. That people want to loot, ransack, and burn down to swell up their own bank accounts on the Left, that is.

  30. says

     During WW2 the Marines bagged a son of Admiral Tojo in the Guadalcanal Campaign. After identifying him and getting every scrap of intel material they buried him. Then they put a thing the Chaplains called a “convenience tube”, the Marines just called them piss tubes into the grave. These were tubes made of artillery ammo canisters, sunk deep enough to where the urine stayed in the ground instead of running all over.
     
     Then the Marines put up a sign saying “Take a piss on Tojo’s son”. The Marines stopped columns of replacements so they could take advantage of this particular tube. Sounds to me as if those young Marines had a sense of history. After all, we hear nothing but noise about how the WW2 folks are The Greatest Generation. I swear, if it were left to today’s refeened sensibilities everywhere west of Salt Lake City we’d be speaking Japanese. East of the Rockies we’d be speaking German from about North Carolina up and Italian south of there.
     
     I went through Boot Camp in ’64, we had some DIs who were vets of those campaigns. Most of the older lifers were vets of that fight. They firmly believed in doing whatever it took to remove the ideas we had that our enemies were human. To dehumanize the enemy makes it easier to kill them. The easier it is to kill them, the more of your guys walk away after the fight.
     
     Anyone who says that this is below the level of American servicemen has never been a combat infantryman. Sorry, after a while the nice stuff we learned in Sunday School is burnt away. Some of us stayed decent, many others got mighty raw.

  31. says

    Obama and the Left is not interested in seeing more Americans live. They have great entertainment at seeing Americans killed or tortured by external or internal enemies, so long as none of it is traced back to the Democrat politicians in the capital.

     I think in summary, if you are making up claims you aren’t willing to back up, you don’t have a right to talk about these serious subjects. Back when everyone thought everyone had a right to an opinion, is when everyone basically said it was okay to go back on your word, and discarded any ethical standards of conduct in this nation. Throwing the Republic away that others died to give them, to get a Democracy.

    Back then, nobody had a right to an opinion about anything or even anyone, unless they were willing to fight a duel over it.

     

  32. says

    Back then before, during, and after the founding of this nation, people might or might not have harbored certain ideas about behaviors, people, and character, but they didn’t say it out loud. To do so would be claiming a right to an opinion that would then require them to back it up. If they weren’t willing to do so, they would either retract their words, not say them to begin with, or apologize for giving offense.

    Here on the internet, it’s the ultimate transformation from such times, where it’s a complete reverse. People hide their real opinions on the internet, in the guise of saying everything they feel or think about subjects. But they are still hiding stuff. The only difference is now it is a lot easier to figure out what people are rudely implying, because they can’t really hide stuff out on the internet for long.

    So many people say phrases and things, and it’s not so much that they would have refused to do so in the real world when face to face, but for some reason they think they can say and do rude things on the internet and nobody will figure it out for what it is because their faces and body gestures can’t be seen. But the internet is still the internet and there is a lot of data that can be mined to arrive at the truth, far more than was the case back in the old days. They even go so far as thinking they can video tape stuff and nobody else will find out. Teenagers take naked pictures of their lovers and send them to their “friends”, thinking it won’t be seen by a million people in a week. It’s like they don’t get it. We can tell what’s really going on. The days of media deception and propaganda manipulation aren’t as easy as it could have been. But since there’s a mark born every second, there’s no end of people being fooled by such fabrications and manipulations, while thinking it’s their own opinion operating.
     
    I just think it’s interesting that the most egregious offenders with the rudest behaviors on the internet, are the ones most vocal about this Marine video incident. It’s not a coincidence, if you ask me. 

  33. Mike Devx says

    Well, it’s been several days, and I still have not felt even one moment of outrage yet.  I still don’t know whether these Marines actually urinated on the corpses or just pantomined it.  Either way, I feel no outrage.

    I wonder if those who feel outrage also felt outrage when our soldiers’ corpses were dragged through the streets of Fallujah, hung from the bridge, and burned.  If you did, then good: At least you are being consistent and your objections are fair and philosophically consistent.  If you didn’t feel outrage then but feel outrage now, then SHAME on you.

    These Marines were in uniform and thus are representing the military and are responsible for conforming to current standards of conduct while in uniform.  As such, they will likely suffer some sort of punishment.  I hope that punishment does not include discharge.  To me this does not rise to a discharge-level offense.  But then, I am not familiar with military rules.

    As Ymar indicated above, people don’t get it in this new video-streaming, internet age.  That includes these soldiers.  There is little private conduct, and video is emotional in a manner news stories are not.  You should represent yourself at all times as though you are in public and not anonymous.  You will be found out.

     

  34. Charles Martel says

    “You will be found out.”


    Mike, nah. You will be found out if you are a conservative, but not if you’re on the left. Some examples, despite  extensive video documentation:


    —Joe Biden is a buffoon and proves it almost every time he opens his mouth. Have the people in charge of finding things out pointed this out yet?
     
    —Nancy Pelosi: ditto.
     
    —Paul Krugman is a reactionary who now just phones in his bile. Has he been found out yet?
     
    —Barack Obama is an aliterate, ill-educated, affirmative-action poster child who openly despises his own country. Still waiting for the proper authorities to find him out.


    —Van Jones is a communist, which is about as low as a human being can sink. How’s that finding out about him going?

  35. Mike Devx says

    Shoot, Charles, everyone who is PAYING ATTENTION knows from videos that, yes, Biden is a buffoon, Nancy is a power-mad ditz, Krugman has jumped the shark, Van Jones is a communist, and Obama is everything you described: basically, Obama is Jimmy Carter, plus Obama despises America (where-as Jimmy didn’t despise America, but instead despised Israel).

    The problem, of course, is that about 50% of Americans refuse to pay attention.  I don’t know why.

  36. says

    The Left has a whole goon squad of rapists, Islamo terrorists, gangs, thugs, SEIU punks, Eric Holders, and megalomaniacs like Obama to cover it all up. That’s just called propaganda or aka mob organization. They provide support, such as to child molestors they recommended be initiated into the March on Catholic institutions.

    For individuals lacking the backing of a mafia like gang, you’re going to fry. Period.

     

  37. says

    Half the reason conservative individuals, some here, most in California and the rest of the nation, get this tendency to go with the flow of media propaganda is because they’re afraid the media will turn on them if they don’t. Being called racists, having your house picketed by SEIU punks, and getting death threats can humble a man, irregardless of his own personal ideological opinions. It makes him more tractable, more obedient. The Left thus essentially psychological tortures many people into obedience.

    Which is why you’re all losing this war against the Left, by my pure analysis.

     

  38. Mike Devx says

    Ymar says in #41: Which is why you’re all losing this war against the Left, by my pure analysis.

    Well, I think we’re losing because the GOP is either cowardly or complicit in the problems plaguing Washington D.C.

    In 2010 the new crop of Republicans rolled into D.C. in a revolutionary mood.  A year-plus later, they’ve mostly been co-opted.  Our debt has RISEN by another trillion during their time on watch.  In a little over a year.  They say few of the right things.  They’re not fighting.  They are cowards… or they are complicit.

    Perhaps it was all a game, and too many within BOTH parties are inside players actually on the same side… and we are the suckers.  Perhaps it was, all along, about nothing more than power.  And who has it.  Clue: You and me, we do not have the power.  Power resides with the brokers within D.C., and nothing you or I say or do, nothing the Tea Party says or does, is going to make one damned bit of difference.

    And I am supposed to vote for a GOP candidate that is Anybody But Obama.  Why bother?  Obama will ruin us in four years.  The GOP candidate will ruin us in twelve years.  Whether it be at the end of four years or twelve, when the collapse comes, and it will, those who are unready will live their lives in screaming horror, in hunger and skeletal misery.  That horror will not occur at precisely twelve years, but it will occur to far too many as the years pass, as the misery of the collapse deepens and deepens.

    If I truly believe the collapse is coming, how can I possibly support a GOP candidate who ensures it will occur – and we are only quibbling about in which year it will occur?  If I truly believe it, I *cannot* vote for any candidate whose words and actions ensure it will occur.

    If you were a single mother with a five year old daughter, which lover would you keep:  The one that will rape your daughter vaginally, orally and anally, or the one that will merely rape her vaginally?  Answer: You’d kick em both out, with shotgun blazing away in case they didn’t run fast enough.

    A pox on both their houses, the GOP and the Democrats.  I will not vote for doom.

  39. Caped Crusader says

    Mike, as Obama is a reflection of America, the Republican party is a reflection of its constituency — in both cases a group of spoiled namby-pamby ingrates with no guts. Any so called conservative who is still paying for your local lib newspaper is part of the problem and giving aid and comfort to those who are out to destroy you. I am tired of hearing anyone bitch, moan, and complain who is still helping those who daily slap us in the face and yet are being supported by those they attack. If 60% of Americans ARE conservative and tomorrow AM they called their newspaper and do as I did 20 years ago to tell them “Tweetie” passed away, and their product is no longer needed, do you think there would be some changes made and heads would roll? And by the way, why is there no huge daily conservative newspaper in this country as there is in all other free countries? It should be a resounding success with a huge circulation, and we would not give a damn what NYT and WaPo said about anything. By the way the WaPo was started expressly to support the Democratic party but this is never mentioned — do you we really expect fair treatment from such a press. It’s time to grow up folks, and act as adults and quit our eternal complaining about those whose job it is to defeat us. Many years ago, when a young doctor in the ER, I had a hard time comprehending the oft heard story of police beating the drunks during the arrest (most of whom I would have hit sooner because of the fighting back). I asked one man why they would do it. his response which I have never forgotten  — “they dooze because they CAN dooze it, that’s why they dooze it, doctor”. So folks, that’s why the MSM trates us a s they do. Because they can dooze it and we do not answer back except with pitiful whimpering.

  40. jj says

    Mike, Crusader – very good.
     
    I recognize that this is – both within and outside our borders – an existential struggle.  This is, not to put too fine a point upon it, serious.  It is – right here, unfolding before your very noses – the big one.  This is not an intellectual discussion we’re having, it’s not a debate – it’s real.  It counts.  The gravity of current events is greater than anything there has ever been in your life thus far.  (I make that as a flat-ass statement with no fear of contradiction.  Even personal tragedies are only personal.  This isn’t.  This sinks us all if we blow it.)  It causes me not to care if anyone gets their pretty pink pinafore dirty, or their knickers in a twist, or their share of the ample American supply of (generally misapplied) “outrage” cranked up.  Such a reaction is childish, and of no value to the struggles in which we are – consciously or not – engaged.  If I – or anyone else – really needs to find and highlight samples of events genuinely worthy of outrage, so the difference between such events and toy-shop nonsense like this will henceforth be plainly apparent, there is little likelihood that whoever we need do this for will be an asset, or worthy of the time we spend doing it.
     
    Because this is an existential struggle, because it is serious – because if we don’t win it will have been our last struggle –  I am in favor of whatever the hell it takes.  Pissing on them, whether they’re dead, alive, or somewhere nebulous in between – doesn’t faze me enough to make me look up.  If it were me, I’d cut them up, and hang a piece from every lamp-post in town, so everybody gets the message.  As I said earlier: we need to be the main feature of their nightmares.  We need to be one-tenth of the conquering beasts we are generally credited with being, and teach these silly shits what being beaten, ground up, and destroyed genuinely looks like.  They blame us for that anyway, so let’s – they can’t learn the difference any younger.  The argument is made: “but if you do that, you’ll only escalate what they do.”  Well, excuse me, Nancy-pants, have you not noticed that such “escalation” is not in this case “escalation” at all, it’s where they started?  Have you not spotted that torture, mutilation, murder, and desecration is their default position?  I’d be damned curious to know how it’s possible to “escalate” their behavior.  They already engage, as a matter of routine, in behavior Genghis Kahn wouldn’t tolerate.
     
    But far too many of us, apparently, will.  There’s an outrage, if you like.  We’re up to our necks, and trying not to sink further.  In the long history of American voter stupidity, we have managed to elect leadership that is easily the most worthless ever seen on this continent – at the exact perfect time!  Leadership that has us currently on the cusp of nullifying not only all the sacrifice and work of the last few years – but also throwing away all the sacrifice and work of the last 250 years.  And this isn’t worthy of “outrage?”  From the massive supply of American outrage, you can’t dredge up any to spare for the plain sight of yourselves throwing the whole thing away?
     
    America no longer has time – nor do I, I’m also out of patience – for any part of our current orgy of moral equivalence.  And because I regard the destruction of my country – the “way of life” with which I – am I alone? – grew up is already long gone – as being worthy of my attention, I’m not the model of generosity and patience I once was.  And don’t intend to be.  Because this is serious.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

  41. says

    The GOP was just like what Devx said in WWII under FDR. What’s changed? People think this is something new, but they need to look back in history and realize that the root causes existed for a long time before the GOP ever fielded their candidates for the 21st century.

     

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