Yes, we can blame rape victims — under very specific circumstances *UPDATED*

Drinking isn't a crime rape isIf you haven’t heard about the Stanford rape case that is riveting all my Progressive friends, here is a brief summary: In January 2015, the unnamed 23-year-old victim went to a party, drank, and passed out. She has no memory of what happened after that. Witnesses, however, found her half-naked and unconscious behind a Dumpster, with Brock Allen Turner atop her. They corralled Turner, a champion Stanford swimmer, and held him until police arrived.

In March 2016, Turner was convicted of three felony counts of sexual assault. The case would have vanished from most people’s radar at this point were it not for the fact that the trial court judge, Aaron Persky, a Stanford alumnus, elected to give Turner a very light sentence: six months in jail and three years probation. The Persky’s reasoning was that “[a] prison sentence would have a severe impact on him. I think he will not be a danger to others.”

The blogosphere went insane, with people publishing Turner’s picture and not so subtly implying that, when he emerges from prison, he should be lynched. Buzzfeed (the outlet that won’t bake cakes for conservatives) went so far as to publish the statement that the victim prepared for the sentencing phase of the trial. You can read the whole thing here. It makes for sad reading because this woman has lost her sense of physical inviolability. Something bad happened to her body, even though she was unaware at the time, and she suffers greatly. I’m just going to include a portion of her statement, though:

On January 17th, 2015, it was a quiet Saturday night at home. My dad made some dinner and I sat at the table with my younger sister who was visiting for the weekend. I was working full time and it was approaching my bed time. I planned to stay at home by myself, watch some TV and read, while she went to a party with her friends. Then, I decided it was my only night with her, I had nothing better to do, so why not, there’s a dumb party ten minutes from my house, I would go, dance like a fool, and embarrass my younger sister. On the way there, I joked that undergrad guys would have braces. My sister teased me for wearing a beige cardigan to a frat party like a librarian. I called myself “big mama”, because I knew I’d be the oldest one there. I made silly faces, let my guard down, and drank liquor too fast not factoring in that my tolerance had significantly lowered since college.

[snip]

One day, I was at work, scrolling through the news on my phone, and came across an article. In it, I read and learned for the first time about how I was found unconscious, with my hair disheveled, long necklace wrapped around my neck, bra pulled out of my dress, dress pulled off over my shoulders and pulled up above my waist, that I was butt naked all the way down to my boots, legs spread apart, and had been penetrated by a foreign object by someone I did not recognize. This was how I learned what happened to me, sitting at my desk reading the news at work. I learned what happened to me the same time everyone else in the world learned what happened to me. That’s when the pine needles in my hair made sense, they didn’t fall from a tree. He had taken off my underwear, his fingers had been inside of me. I don’t even know this person. I still don’t know this person. When I read about me like this, I said, this can’t be me, this can’t be me. I could not digest or accept any of this information. I could not imagine my family having to read about this online. I kept reading. In the next paragraph, I read something that I will never forgive; I read that according to him, I liked it. I liked it. Again, I do not have words for these feelings.

[snip]

The night after it happened, he said he didn’t know my name, said he wouldn’t be able to identify my face in a lineup, didn’t mention any dialogue between us, no words, only dancing and kissing. Dancing is a cute term; was it snapping fingers and twirling dancing, or just bodies grinding up against each other in a crowded room? I wonder if kissing was just faces sloppily pressed up against each other? When the detective asked if he had planned on taking me back to his dorm, he said no. When the detective asked how we ended up behind the dumpster, he said he didn’t know. He admitted to kissing other girls at that party, one of whom was my own sister who pushed him away. He admitted to wanting to hook up with someone. I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me. Sometimes I think, if I hadn’t gone, then this never would’ve happened. But then I realized, it would have happened, just to somebody else. You were about to enter four years of access to drunk girls and parties, and if this is the foot you started off on, then it is right you did not continue. The night after it happened, he said he thought I liked it because I rubbed his back. A back rub.

[snip]

Your attorney has repeatedly pointed out, well we don’t know exactly when she became unconscious. And you’re right, maybe I was still fluttering my eyes and wasn’t completely limp yet. That was never the point. I was too drunk to speak English, too drunk to consent way before I was on the ground. I should have never been touched in the first place.

[snip]

Alcohol is not an excuse. Is it a factor? Yes. But alcohol was not the one who stripped me, fingered me, had my head dragging against the ground, with me almost fully naked. Having too much to drink was an amateur mistake that I admit to, but it is not criminal. Everyone in this room has had a night where they have regretted drinking too much, or knows someone close to them who has had a night where they have regretted drinking too much. Regretting drinking is not the same as regretting sexual assault. We were both drunk, the difference is I did not take off your pants and underwear, touch you inappropriately, and run away. That’s the difference.

If you cut through all the “I am a victim” talk, the reality emerges:  One night, there were two disgustingly drunk, incoherent people, the male half of whom ended up having sex with the female half. Everything else is speculation, although the fact that the victim had abrasions on her and dirt in her seems to indicate that he was violent and she fought, or that he was careless and it didn’t matter whether she fought or not. She felt bad, but is anonymous; he will be a pariah for the rest of his life because the Leftist blogosphere is out to get him.

I have a few things to say about this sordid event, all of which will get the PC police breathing down my neck. I’ll start with a story a former judge’s clerk told me almost thirty years ago. The person who told me had clerked for a judge down in Texas. The case didn’t involve fancy college students, but good ol’ Texas rednecks who were partying hard down on the beach one summer. One of the gals awoke from her drunken stupor to discover a man who was not her boyfriend on top of her, having intercourse with her. She cried rape; he ended up in criminal court.

The defendant didn’t get convicted, though. Although most of the attendees at this party were drunk, piecing together their testimony revealed the truth: The victim and defendant were drinking heavily. She thought he was her boyfriend, even though her boyfriend was wearing a cast at the time, which the defendant was not; and he thought she was his girlfriend because she was a willing drunken female. He was as surprised as she was when halfway through the act she suddenly started screaming rape.

My point: Paralytically drunk people, both male and female, do incredibly stupid things. Sex is a core biological function, the impulse for which is situated deep within our lizard brain. Men, when their self-control isn’t just dulled but is erased by alcohol, are going to head straight for sex. Women too will often say yes to sex when drunk even if they wouldn’t when sober. The morning after, the woman is a victim; the man is a rapist. The real culprit — overindulgence in alcohol — is politely ignored, despite the fact that it powered both of them in their conduct. Because the woman feels horrible about herself, the man must suffer too.

Of course, if the woman is unconscious from start to finish, is saying “No, no, stop, stop,” or is pushing him away from her as best as she can, we expect even the lizard-brain controlled man to stop his base instincts from taking over — and this is even if he went into the engagement thinking she was saying yes. In this case, though, the victim’s own letter makes it clear that both these people were incoherently drunk, something that means that, even if they could speak, they were probably incapable of interpreting what the other was saying or doing. Moreover, the defendant’s lawyer argued that, because the victim had blacked out and had no memory whatsoever of what happened, it was just as likely that she gave consent before passing out as it was that she didn’t consent. We don’t know — and she doesn’t know, although she sure felt violated after the fact, as much from the hospital and police experience as from the rape she didn’t remember.

Honestly, if the only evidence I heard was what’s in the victim’s letter, if I were a juror, I wouldn’t have found him guilty. I don’t think she made a case showing by a preponderance of evidence that she didn’t drunkenly consent. Given that Turner too was drunk, it’s not fair to impose upon him the ex post facto burden of having the sense to realize that she was too drunk to consent. If she was too drunk to consent, he was too drunk to figure that fact out.

My view is politically incorrect. I’m “shaming” her. I’m blaming the victim. She’s feeling awful, so he should too. The posters on the internet make that clear. Here are two examples:

Causes of rape

Drinking isn't a crime rape is

Looking at those posters, I realized suddenly what was wrong with them: They’re utterly failing to consider the historic, and quite unique, victim shaming that went with rape. In the old days, when a woman cried rape, she was disbelieved on the grounds that she was “asking for it.” This is what Muslims in Germany say when they brutally assault sober women walking down the street or gathering to celebrate New Year’s outside a church: “Just be being in that place or wearing that dress, she was a whore. She was a prostitute but didn’t have the sense to ask for money. I wasn’t raping her. I just gave her what she obviously wanted and needed.  Women just by being women, unless locked away, are asking for it and all men are entitled to respond to this enticement with sex, no matter her physical or verbal protests.”

Islam and rape

That’s slut-shaming. That’s excusing your own criminal behavior by accusing the woman of a very specific, narrow fault: Enticing you into sex because she is a woman.

As I said, this kind of “blaming the victim” attitude is unique to rape. For no other crime has it ever been a defense that the victim “was asking for it.” With rape, though, women were put on sexual trial, which is a vile, awful, sexist, unfair, totally wrong thing to do.

What’s happened nowadays, though, is that we’ve gone too far in the other direction. Saying someone is at fault for getting paralytically drunk is an entirely different type of blame from saying “she asked for it.”   The former blames conduct under the victim’s control; the latter blames the victim because of her sex, something over which, in a sane, non-gender crazed world, she has no control.

If Turner genuinely forced sex on an unwilling or unconscious woman, that’s a crime that’s in the books, not just one ginned up by Social Justice Warriors. Turner would then appropriately deserve to be imprisoned for a good part of his life, something that will be a useful deterrent to other young men who think forcing sex on an unwilling or unconscious woman is good sport.

We’re making a big mistake, though, to give the victim a complete pass. No matter how guilty Turner was, if the victim got too drunk to protect herself, she’s guilty too — of advanced stupidity. She doesn’t need to go to jail, of course. She’s clearly suffered enough. But by pretending that she had nothing to do with her rape, we are giving her a pass that is societally damaging.

I want my daughter and her friends to understand that if you drink too much at a party, there will be consequences. You might get sick, you might get liver damage, you might drown in your own vomit, you might cause a fatal car accident, and you might be incapable of removing yourself from a situation in which a man with whom you don’t want to have sex, whether he’s acting malevolently or because he’s as drunk as you, ends up having sex with you. Every time we give these drunk victims a pass, we disempower a whole other cohort of young women who should be learning from her example, but who are repeatedly told that they have nothing to do with their own safety and well-being.

And yes, I recognize that there are going to be shades of gray:  Is a woman at fault if she walked down “X Street,” when she should have known an unsavory crowd can be found there Saturday night?  Is the woman a victim when she wears a short skirt in a bar?

I’m not going to go to the shades of gray. I’m sticking with one subject:  Women who get drunk to the point of becoming unconscious or blacking out. That’s a modern phenomenon and a very dangerous one. We need to stop it for our daughter’s safety and the only way to do that is to say that those women and girls who get paralytically drunk are engaging in a stunningly stupid course of conduct that puts them at extreme risk in numerous ways, including becoming a rape victim.

Sorry for being so un-PC, but it needs to be said.

UPDATE:  Someone suggested to me that the fact that she was unconscious makes what he Turner did rape, without any extenuating circumstances. That is, if unconscious, she could not be consenting. Technically, that’s true, but it again ignores the fact that both were apparently drunk.

My take on the situation — again based wholely on the victim’s own letter — is that if he raped her, he raped her. Her letter, though, indicated that they were both drunk, that she was making out with him on the dance floor, and that she has no memory of how she ended up outside, behind the dumpster, under him. Now, it’s entirely possible that he was rational enough at some point to either drag her out to the dumpster or find her there and deliberately take advantage of her unconsciousness.

It’s equally likely, though, again riffing off of her letter, that both he and she drunkenly said “Let’s get out of here,” and events escalated, with the victim at some point in the following events passing out. If he was sober enough to realize she was unconscious, he absolutely should have stopped. If he was as drunk as she, though, it’s entirely possible that he didn’t notice that she had stopped moving, being entirely focused on his own actions. Drunks are not usually distinguished by good situational awareness.

Again, if he raped her, he raped her and he deserves every bit of imprisonment and condemnation possible. However, even under that black-and-white scenario regarding his conduct, the SJWs should not be allowed to pretend that the victim did not contribute to her own bad luck. Put another way, the fact that he’s guilty of the crime of rape, which is punishable by our criminal justice system, does not mean that she’s not guilty of the crime of stupidity, which is not punishable by our criminal justice system, but which should stand as a clarion warning to other young women not to do what she did.

I have a son and a daughter. I’ve pointed this story out to both of them along with the caution that if they drink to the point of acute intoxication, they have no control over where they end up, whether that’s the ER room or the jail cell.

So again: My point is that this is a morality tale that both boys and girls should learn from. The lesson isn’t just “Boys, you must not rape.” The lesson is also, “Boys and Girls, do not drink to excess because very bad things can happen and, even if you don’t engage in a criminal act, you may find yourself on the receiving end of something awful.” The feminists and SJWs, by giving women a pass on that last admonition — an admonition related to the girls’ conduct, over which they have control, rather than the mere fact that they are female, something that just is — are failing to protect women from engaging in behavior every bit as dangerous as drunk driving.

It’s ironic that we live in a culture where everyone is taught “Don’t smoke, because you might die in 40 yars,” or “Don’t eat GMOs, because who knows,” utterly refuses to admonish girls for a specific behavior with immediate awful consequences.

UPDATE II:  For further thoughts, which address the question of the victim’s withdrawing consent when she passed out, please go here.

  • “As I said, this kind of “blaming the victim” attitude is unique to rape. For no other crime has it ever been a defense that the victim “was asking for it.””

    Bull.

    It happens ALL THE TIME with other crimes. A guy goes to “that part of town” at 3am and gets carjacked. Everyone asks, “why were you down there at 3am? You know what happens.”

    Someone leaves their front door open and goes to work. They come home and their house has been burgled. “What were you thinking? You know you can’t leave your door open.”

    Someone leaves their car running in their driveway to warm up with the keys in it. Not only do we blame the victim when their car is stolen, in some places THEY get charged with a crime.

    There’s nothing unique with rape in this case. In EVERY OTHER crime, if you do something that is so irresponsible that it was reasonable to believe that criminals will target you — YOU GET BLAMED AS WELL.

    • I wasn’t being clear. I meant that rape is the only crime in which, historically, women were blamed, not for their conduct, but for being women. Sometimes it was dressed up as blame for conduct, but the underlying point always was that women who were raped were automatically considered sluts who asked for it.

      • ymarsakar

        The logic was of temptation comes from sexual desire, and a woman’s body produces sexual desire by itself, merely existing.

        Of course that depends on what people interpret Adam/Eve as and the relationship between the sexes and free will. Islam does not have free will, for example. Neither does the Left actually…

    • MetricButtload

      Good thoughts. I feel in the world today, particularly at Universities with some of the hoops a guy is supposed to now jump through to assume he is not raping a seemingly willing partner, there is an inconsistent application of logic. In particular, if both are drunk, it seems reasonable decision making capacity is attributed to the male, and inability to consent or make a decision is attributed to the female. I posed this scenario to my wife who tends to argue for the women in such cases, and she said, no matter how drunk he is, he is accountable and can make decisions, to which I replied, then so is she, to which she wasn’t sure how to reply. Sorry I’m sure my punctuation is terrible and probably makes your head hurt.

  • emjaagaard

    Good thoughts, BW…..and Phelps is right on the money!

  • RobertArvanitis

    Be bold, Book.
    “,,,get the PC police breathing down my neck.” No. Not when you turn and confront them, face to face. That’s what it takes with these people.

  • Celia Hayes

    I read the whole original letter from the victim – one of my Facebook friends linked to it … and it was excruciating, and obviously she was traumatized … but absolutely nowhere in her statement did I see any hint of her acknowledging that going to a wild party with a bunch of men who were strangers to her and getting blackout drunk at that party had been a very, very bad idea on her part.

  • MacG

    She can’t remember anything after sixth drink. She cannot even say if she stopped drinking. Blacking of is not passing out. 20 mins was the supposed duration. If she passed out after 15 mins having consented it would look like to passers by that she was unconscious the whole time. Likely he ran because he was caught having sex in public.

    As an aside weren’t there underage drinkers there?is she not over 21?

    • MacG

      MacG • 10 hours ago

      She can’t remember anything after the sixth drink. Therefore she cannot even say when she stopped drinking. Blacking out is not passing out. The article below points out that rapid consumption is more likely to cause black out which is how she described in drinking six shots, four of one liquor and two of another.

      “Also, even if you can’t remember anything from the night before, it doesn’t mean you were a walking, talking mess. Since alcohol affects our cognitive functions first, it’s possible that your total BAC rose quickly enough to trigger the blackout response before hitting your motor functions, Rose says. In that case, you may have appeared only minimally impaired (not blotto and texting exes).” *

      20 mins was the supposed duration of the act in the trial (how that was ascertained with his BAC twice the legal limit and her being passed out is unknown to me). If she passed out after 15 mins having consented prior to engaging it would look like to passers by that she was unconscious the whole time. Likely he ran because he was caught having sex in public.

      Did any of the party goers notice who left, when and with whom? Her sister who reported rebuffing his advances earlier, where was she when her sister left? Did her sister warn her of this creepy guy? So many unanswered questions which answers could fill in the blank of her memory. If it could be proven it started out consensual, would it not at least relieve her to know that she was not violated?

      What the hell is wrong with the system that she learned of it in the media? What a crushing experience.

      They got a guilty verdict which is more than they did in a similar local case involving two drunks as reported in the Marin IJ last week.

      http://www.marinij.com/general

      I hope she can find healing and peace from this experience.

      * http://greatist.com/health/wha

  • For those who already read this post, and are just following this comment thread, here is an UPDATE I added to the post:

    UPDATE: Someone suggested to me that the fact that she was unconscious makes what he Turner did rape, without any extenuating circumstances. That is, if unconscious, she could not be consenting. Technically, that’s true, but it again ignores the fact that both were apparently drunk.

    My take on the situation — again based wholely on the victim’s own letter — is that if he raped her, he raped her. Her letter, though, indicated that they were both drunk, that she was making out with him on the dance floor, and that she has no memory of how she ended up outside, behind the dumpster, under him. Now, it’s entirely possible that he was rational enough at some point to either drag her out to the dumpster or find her there and deliberately take advantage of her unconsciousness.

    It’s equally likely, though, again riffing off of her letter, that both he and she drunkenly said “Let’s get out of here,” and events escalated, with the victim at some point in the following events passing out. If he was sober enough to realize she was unconscious, he absolutely should have stopped. If he was as drunk as she, though, it’s entirely possible that he didn’t notice that she had stopped moving, being entirely focused on his own actions. Drunks are not usually distinguished by good situational awareness.

    Again, if he raped her, he raped her and he deserves every bit of imprisonment and condemnation possible. However, even under that black-and-white scenario regarding his conduct, the SJWs should not be allowed to pretend that the victim did not contribute to her own bad luck. Put another way, the fact that he’s guilty of the crime of rape, which is punishable by our criminal justice system, does not mean that she’s not guilty of the crime of stupidity, which is not punishable by our criminal justice system, but which should stand as a clarion warning to other young women not to do what she did.

    I have a son and a daughter. I’ve pointed this story out to both of them along with the caution that if they drink to the point of acute intoxication, they have no control over where they end up, whether that’s the ER room or the jail cell.

    So again: My point is that this is a morality tale that both boys and girls should learn from. The lesson isn’t just “Boys, you must not rape.” The lesson is also, “Boys and Girls, do not drink to excess because very bad things can happen and, even if you don’t engage in a criminal act, you may find yourself on the receiving end of something awful.” The feminists and SJWs, by giving women a pass on that last admonition — an admonition related to the girls’ conduct, over which they have control, rather than the mere fact that they are female, something that just is — are failing to protect women from engaging in behavior every bit as dangerous as drunk driving.

    It’s ironic that we live in a culture where everyone is taught “Don’t smoke, because you might die in 40 yars,” or “Don’t eat GMOs, because who knows,” utterly refuses to admonish girls for a specific behavior with immediate awful consequences.

    • Libby_CO

      I’m sure Ymar can put it more bluntly, but we now have a culture that regularly encourages mixed signals and double standards, intentionally sowing chaos (e.g. safe spaces vs.justified Trump rally attacks, rape culture vs. boys in the girls locker room, etc.). It is cognitive dissonance to believe you can dress like a slut and binge-drink among strangers, live the Tinder hook-up lifestyle, while also redefining rape down to unwanted come-ons and regret sex. The people encouraging this cognitive dissonance do not have our best interests in mind.

      • ymarsakar

        Quite right, if anything the mainstream society is refusing to look at a certain data point. How easy it is for pornographer directors, large consortium or private business, to recruit from these battered “drunk girls” that’ll do anything at parties. How about paying them thousands of dollars, what will they do then?

        What if they get pregnant though? Planned Profit is there with the solution. Doesn’t that use up federal funding? Not if they money launder it using their profits from selling biological fetuses to bio R/D labs. What are those labs using it for? Stem cells, non adult, that people argued about back during Bush II’s admin. Ah, we come full circle.

        My modus operandi is to look at the truth. The truth which humans, society, idiots, and intellectuals refuse to look at. The hidden wisdom and the unpopular path, which usually starts by connecting dots. Some people look at where everyone else is heading career and economy wise, then they head in the opposite direction. What I do is look at what most people think is true, and head down a different path looking at the unknown unknowns.

    • MacG

      If I was teasing the cat or dog and got bit mom would say it was my fault. You can tease most dogs a bit but some not at all.
      Interesting how libs cry about a bear being shot for biting by saying it was only doing what bears do. We invaded their territory we need to respect them and need to learn to live with them. We must adapt – not teach the bear how nit to be a bear.

  • Libby_CO

    “Sometimes I think, if I hadn’t gone, then this never would’ve happened.
    But then I realized, it would have happened, just to somebody else.”

    Not necessarily. As Phelps has illustrated with his examples, one can be responsible for creating the opportunity for a crime without being responsible for the crime itself. Singer Chrissie Hynde made this point about her own rape and was vilified by the feminists for it. This woman assumes that Turner had set out to rape someone that night, while ignoring that he may well have just been acting on an opportunity to hook-up (given that her consent cannot be confirmed/remembered).

    • Libby_CO: I don’t think anyone, even Ymarsakar, could put it better than you just did.

      • ymarsakar

        It’s usually police officers and murder/criminal investigators that go into the triangle needed for crimes. I only learned of it from some alternative source, who was close to criminal investigators, when I was reading online websites detailing the conclusions.

        It’s good to see people internalizing the concepts and applying it to daily or modern media, however.

        I could write stuff about the Intent/Opportunity/Capability triangle every year, but it won’t do people any good if they fail to use them and internalize the practice. It is a subject the ignorant public, would do well to learn from. Especially since it avoids police, medical, and criminal risks.

        For me, it is related to OODA and target profiling criminals or other targets I might potentially need to eliminate. It was very easy for me to understand, because it is the same mindset, semi predatory, which I myself use. To a criminal, having any one of the 3 triangle sides, can allow them to develop the other spontaneously. For me, I always train the capability to counter act criminals, which can be a counter. The opportunity is usually never there, however, unless one makes it by increasing risks. Intent comes from what the goals are. When I use a tool from the box, my intent is based on what it takes to solve problems. To catch a thief, use a thief. Fight fire with fire, poison with poison. If your flock is threatened by wolves, domesticate them into dogs and use the dogs. Humans have known this for some time now.

    • ymarsakar

      That’s why ancient societies kept women and men segregated and separate. Chaperones were used. Escorts and family members were used to guard their female clan members from external males and strangers.

      Leaving people alone in a room allows them to use their personal power against each other. Sort of like how murder mysteries use the Closed Room.

      Femi nazis and Leftists use the state to control and enforce rules on females. They don’t necessarily want females to enforce rules on themselves or each other, as that violates the Monopoly of State Control. What they traded chasteness and chastity for, wasn’t sexual liberation. It was sexual domination under the State and only the State. And it just so happens a lot of power mad and power hungry females work for the State, as feminists.

  • Wolf Howling

    To bring a bit of levity to the situation we find ourselves in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B_a5ZRrTvA

  • Tonestaple

    1. If I were the mother of sons, I would not want them to go anywhere near a college until they were at least 30 and wise and mature enough to protect themselves from the drunken and irresponsible cavorting of teenaged girls. (Let them learn plumbing or electrical work or something equally useful and then they can pay for their formal education with all the cash they will be raking in.)

    2. Do parents even discuss alcohol with their kids? Do they sit them down and say, if you get drunk with strangers, horrible things may happen to you. Do they at least once encourage their children to get completely wasted and video the entire experiment? Do they tell their sons over and over and over again that the deck is stacked against them and they should act to protect themselves always, and if that means never drinking at college, that’s what it means? Do they tell their daughters over and over and over again that girls simply cannot hold as much liquor as boys can, and that every drink increases their vulnerability to assault and worse, and that they are responsible for their own safety, and if that means they never ever drink at college, so be it?

    3. My sister has two sons and our father was an alcoholic. She has said that she talks to her boys about alcohol but I fear it is based on the largely silly notion that becoming an alcoholic is somehow genetic. What she really needs to do is tell them what might happen to them if they get drunk and meet the wrong (drunken) girl, but I fear she has swallowed too much liberal orthodoxy to ever do that.

    • MichaelAdams

      There is a great deal of epidemiological evidence that alcoholism is hereditary, much more common among Indigenous and among Irish, Check our cheekbones and teeth, or even the parish registers of seventeenth century Virginia.You’ll learn a lot about us.The man who discovered the psychiatric uses of Lithium was sure he had found the Unified Field Theory of psychiatry, and that schizophrenia and alcoholism were manifestations of bipolar affective disorder. Well, we have a heaping helping of bipolar trait, although the actual illness has only been expressed in my only Black cousins This might, possibly, maybe explain the apparent genetic connection. However, very large numbers of otherwise sensible people believe it is there.There are Native villages in Alaska in which everyone has taken the Pledge. About half of the people of Tsarist Russia were teetotalers at the time of the revolution.They may have been wrong, but they were surely not stupid. It is never wise to dismiss folk epidemiology. e.g. Eating watermelon does not give one malaria, but sitting outside at sunset, eating the melon and spitting seeds out into the yard, will bring you into closer proximitry to mosquitoes. So, those of us who have seen the devastation of alcohol in our families are once burned, twice shy, and, if there is a genetic component, we have a plan that will avoid it.

      • Tonestaple

        Daddy and all his brothers and his sister were addicts. That doesn’t make it genetic. They were all also raised by a mother who, at best, probably had borderline personality disorder but maybe she was schizophrenic although none of her children were. But their mother was abusive and mercurial and in every way unpleasant, enough to drive any child to drink if only to relieve the unrelenting pain of wondering why your own mother hated you.
        I knew someone would react to that part of my comment but THAT’S NOT THE POINT.

        • ymarsakar

          By genetic, the research refers to how some people, usually Northern Europeans, consumed so much ale and mead during winter, that successive and current generations built up a tolerance for it. Probably liver orientated, organ wise.

          Then there’s the other point, which is that local tribes in America, the continent, may have developed resistance and tolerance to one kind of alcohol but not another.

          This is on top of the psychological reasons weak people get addicted to anything and start relying on it. If a person is strong of heart and will, they may never become addicted to alcohol, even if they are genetically susceptible to it in the modern era.

  • MichaelAdams

    Do parents teach their children about alcohol any more? This parent did. My daughter even embroidered a sampler with the dictum:”No one needs to make himself dumber than he already was.” They have seen their grandparents and still hear tales of their uncle, and we repeat it constantly:”No one needs to make himself dumber.” We voice our disapproval during movies, and in conversations about people they know. We have a teaspoon of wine at around noon on Sundays, and I sometimes put beer in a pot roast. They get more vanilla than wine, overall. Whatever they got in their genes, they do not get drunk and loosen their jeans.

  • I’ve been torn on writing about this. I’m one of those “nekkid pagans who love the sex” and my attitudes are considerably different than mainstream America. But Bookworm’s piece here has helped put it in perspective.

    Nudity does not equal sex. Nudity does not equal an invitation for sex. Sex only happens between consenting adults or it’s rape.

    As BW pointed out, the young lady set out to get drunk. Technically that means she couldn’t consent. But it was also her choice that put her there without anyone else who could look after her interests while she was blotto.

    So yes, she shares responsibility for what happened.

    Another excellent piece, Bookworm.

    • valvacious

      question: if the guy was sooooo drunk like it said in this article…then how was he coherent to know to run when interrupted by the 2 Swed rescuers? The Swedish duo realized the girl was motionless and confronted Turner, who wheeled around and ran. I admit, a very drunk person doesn’t know what is going on yet this guy makes a judgment call and runs, therefore he knows he is doing something bad and wrong.

      • He may not have realized it was wrong until he was called on it. That’s not all that unusual even without the sex. I remember one guy who was convinced he could punch his way through a wall like Robocop.

        • valvacious

          You stated, ” He may not have realized it was wrong until he was called on it” Dude come on, this is not a kid but a 20 year old. He knows he is in the wrong because time the Sweds called him out on it, he decides to flee.
          (apparently he was not too drunk to comprehend should I stay or should I go.)

          It is a fact, some people do drunken things because they’re not aware of their behavior and then there is the other group of people, who do drunken things because they seem to be less bothered by the implications or consequences of their behavior than they normally would be, if they were not too drunk.

          Turner knew what he was doing behind the dumpster was wrong. He had enough sense to know to go behind the dumpster and not in front of it. Turner got caught with his hand in the cookie jar by the Sweds, so like a kid, he runs. He is sorry he got caught.

          • Look, I’m not excusing the guy. But yeah, drunk people do some very stupid and bad things. Yes. he’s a scumbag. Rape is wrong.

            But drinking so much that you pass out is not exactly responsible behavior.

          • valvacious

            I agree, drinking so much that you pass out is not responsible behavior for anyone just like driving when you are buzzed isn’t either. However, my point is: Turner comprehended and went behind the dumpster , not in front and then later flees, therefore, IMO, that means he wasn’t as drunk as the article is making him out to be. IMO, he is in the 2nd catergory….he is less bothered by his actions. Alcohol can significantly lower personal inhibitions. While this often helps people feel relaxed, it has also caused millions of people to engage in extremely risky behaviors with life-changing repercussions. Turner is a good example. He made his choices, he was not forced.

          • MacG

            This is a possibility: Sex in public has its own appeal, the added excitement of getting away with it. They know it’s naughty/wrong and scurry when caught. Unfortunately, she by that time, was unable to run.

          • valvacious

            PS: Hopefully, this young woman and young man have learned an important lesson and will sin no more.

  • won’tsubmit

    It’s not their fault, it’s yours! Swedish GIRLS blamed for rise in migrant sex attacks

    SWEDISH police have blamed Scandinavian teenage girls’ “Nordic alcohol culture” and Western behaviour for a steep rise in sex attacks carried out by migrants…
    http://tinyurl.com/guysn6r

    • ymarsakar

      If Nordic alcohol culture was the problem, they would not have higher rape rates by inviting foreigners in. But there’s a reason why a Nordic terrorist and freedom fighter shot up the powers that be, in his country. I think anders breveik is still alive even.

  • Cindy Good

    Thank you for this. I thought I was the only liberal who was distressed about this whole conversation. Talk about privilege — on both sides! What woman/college girl doesn’t know about campus sexual abuse? So knowing about the other incidents what kind of idiot goes out, drinks to a stupor and blacks out in an alley? Where were HER parents when she was being raised? I think this was really a case of he said/she said and both were so drunk that neither knows what was said/consented to. This should have never come to trial and she needs to take some responsibility for her incredibly stupid behavior. And don’t get me started on her whiny, poor me diatribe about an event she doesn’t remember!

    I’m from a different generation, I’ll admit. I may look like white privilege now, but my family was lower middle class. I was the first one in my family to graduate college. It was important to me, I actually attended college for the education and degree and worked my way through school. I didn’t have mommy and daddy’s money, or school loans. Not that I didn’t attend my share of parties, but I was there to learn, not to drink myself into a stupor.

    • MacG

      Heya Cindy it is good to see that Liberals are not lock step after all 🙂

      BTW (not to hijack the thread perhaps this can be discussed in a future open thread) white privilege is about being ‘white’ and has nothing to do with class:
      “White privilege (or white skin privilege) is a term for societal privileges that benefit people identified as white in Western countries, beyond what is commonly experienced by non-white people under the same social, political, or economic circumstances.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

    • ymarsakar

      So knowing about the other incidents what kind of idiot goes out, drinks to a stupor and blacks out in an alley?

      A feminist that has been indoctrinated to become a zombie that can only talk about their rights, and not their capability to enforce their own independence.

    • March_Hare

      Hi Cindy–here’s the rub: the victim was older and had gone to the party to spend time with her younger sister who was the college student (at least, that’s my understanding from her letter). I would have thought that she, being older, would have understood the dangers in “drinking to catch up.” If she hadn’t had that experience in college herself, usually there is a roommate/dorm mate/friend who has and has suffered the next day. She lost track of her sister during the party as well.

  • TheCynic

    Like you, I see fault on both sides, making both actors culpable in this sad situation. And agreed, this is a short sentence for the offense, but isn’t the real reason this whole thing has everyone in such an uproar the man’s father dismissing this as “20 minutes of action” in his attempt to defend his son? Would any of the majority of the internet media even engaged in this discussion without that? Reddit did have the victim statement and the facts of the sentence online, but the real outcry began after the father’s letter was made public. I see this more as a class dispute, as the revelation of the letter has brought on charges of affluenza about the man involved, as well as the fact the judge was an Stanford alumni as well. Again, a bad situation on both sides, but the growing outrage would be so much less without the deliberate introduction of the class dispute.

  • ymarsakar

    It’s ironic that we live in a culture where everyone is taught “Don’t smoke, because you might die in 40 yars,” or “Don’t eat GMOs, because who knows,” utterly refuses to admonish girls for a specific behavior with immediate awful consequences.

    That’s because the Left profits from having Leftists and rapists having sex with women without social or legal penalties. They don’t profit from GMOs or smoking as much.

    People are responsible for their decisions, socially, morally, and legally, even if they are drunk. Meaning drunk drivers, drunk manslaughters, are not de ranked to a misdemeanor or wiped off the records. The Left, however, does not want individuals to be responsible. They want the State to have power over the individual, turning the individual into a livestock. That is The Goal, not a bug.

    There are generally two protections for women. Other women, in the social pack hierarchy, who enforce their own rules on contact with the other sex and how much skin is shown or sexual contact is allowed. It was called chaperones and escorts. The other protection was other men, enforcing rules on other men.

    Both were destroyed by the Leftist alliance’s subversion of institutions, American or otherwise. Feminism succeeded there.

    • ymarsakar

      Alcohol makes it more difficult to defend yourself against threats. Which is something I noticed before I was 21, btw.

      The good thing about society is how well it indoctrinates and stupefies human sheep into doing all kinds of dramatic things that benefit the hierarchy, but does not benefit solely the individual. That’s how humans are, after all. That’s why humans form groups for mutual cooperation. The problem is when your society is lead by evil megalomaniacs…. then there might be a problem.

      To cut it short, I would be liable for my death or the death of anybody else, if I got drunk or used external drugs. That is of course, both a moral, social, and legal responsibility, not merely a make a wish dream foundation thing.

      You will be held to account and guilty, even if a judge says you are innocent and have not been proven guilty. Lack of proof or the presence of it, does not make someone guilty in the meta reality. Lack of proof may be the result of evidence contamination and destruction (somebody deleted the HDs). The presence of proof might be a setup or a frame job. Withholding extenuating circumstance evidence while forwarding incriminating evidence is another way they do it. Some evidence and proof, but not all of it, is like 99% truth, 1% deception.

      In conclusion, getting drunk would be a pretty foolish move on my part. It would be like carrying around grenades and machine guns with the safeties off, and the pin tied to various strings that I or others could accidentally pull. The more tools I obtained for my tool box, the more risky and dangerous it got to not have full control of myself or my faculties.

      The modern human in America, however, tends to live more like livestock than a human that can control themselves though.

    • ymarsakar

      Another minor comment, next day over, is that women guarded the chastity and virtues of each other, because they knew how hard it would be to be believed if someone legitimately cried rape. Thus they ensured that the vicefull could not cry rape and use the protections of society to enforce their power play. As that would merely devalue the cachet value of other virtuous women.

      That is “Society”, part of the social experience which SJWs would claim to have justice in. They have no society worth protecting and no justice worth fighting for.

  • Lee Also

    Not long ago, I read one of those tales of the railroaded college young man. He and another girl got drunk at a party, went back to his room, started getting all hot and randy, heavy petting, etc. He passed out. She, uh, continued to do things to him sexually after he was passed out. She stayed the night. I think they went out a couple times, maybe once, after “the night in question.” Sometime SEVERAL weeks after the first night happened, she went to the college start chamber to press some sort of charges, that since she was drunk, he had no “consent.” She even told the part of what she did AFTER the young man passed out. The College Star Chamber “convicted” the young man. But even though she admitted do things to him sexually AFTER he passed out, no disciplinary action was taken against her. When the young man asked about it, he was informed that she was to “traumatized.”

    Apparently, what’s good for the gander is NOT good for the goose.

    • ymarsakar

      Clinton could tell you about the goose there. So could the now dead Ted Kennedy and Robert KKK Byrd.

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